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    Su-25SM numbers

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    GarryB

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    CAS protection

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:00 pm

    I also recently read that the Su-25SM upgrade is being revisited and that a new upgrade is planned based on experience from the Georgian conflict and that new Single seat and two seat Su-25s will be built.

    ie  
    Tests of advanced Su-25SM will be completed in 2012.
    15.08.11 12:12 Army, military, intelligence agencies

    Tests of advanced Su-25SM, equipped with a number of new aircraft systems is scheduled for completion in 2012, "Interfax-AVN," the military-industrial complex.

    "To date, the advanced Su-25SM has made about 20 successful test flights," - said the official.

    According to him, the Su-25SM "established new systems of defense, communications, new calculators."

    After completion of the test set for the defense of the Su-25SM, they will be equipped with all modernized single attack aircraft of this type and, possibly, new double-Su 25UBM. Set in a modern complex of Defense aircraft will significantly increase the combat capabilities of attack aircraft.

    source: http://www.warandpeace.ru/ru/news/view/60825/

    Hopefully the new systems will include SVP-24 because if any aircraft needs to be able to deploy unguided weapons in free flight with some precision it is the Su-25.

    Against poorly armed opponents (ie ones not supported by a superpower with MANPADS et al) dumb bombs and dumb rockets accurately delivered is still a perfectly viable weapon for some targets.
    For MANPAD equipped targets a DIRCM system like the MANTA system being developed for the Ka-52 would be a useful addition and an active IR jammer and active radar jammer too.

    In fact a further upgrade of the Su-25TMs self defence suite might be useful, though the main threat will be small arms fire (taken care of with speed and low altitude and armour) and MANPADS (DIRCMs and high flight speed giving short engagement time as well as guided weapons for standoff attacks).

    Perhaps another aspect that might be improved is the gun where during the Georgian campaign I remember reading several pilots felt the rate of fire of the 30mm cannon was a little high and that even very short bursts was directing a lot more ammo down range than they wanted. They probably also wanted more ammo.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:53 am

    Against poorly armed opponents (ie ones not supported by a superpower with MANPADS et al) dumb bombs and dumb rockets accurately delivered is still a perfectly viable weapon for some targets.
    For MANPAD equipped targets a DIRCM system like the MANTA system being developed for the Ka-52 would be a useful addition and an active IR jammer and active radar jammer too.


    GarryB in all the publiations i have read , the integrated DAS tested and planned for implementation on Kamov-52 is the much,much,much superior Vitebsk-M self protection suit (President-S in its export incarnation) which include an integrated MAWS and ARH missile jamming system a full spherical DIRCM and Chaff/Flare dispensers.
    You can read an interesting article on the subject here:

    www.scribd.com/doc/49794092/Self-Protection-Eastern-Style-Defence-Helicopter-Magazine

    Here instead you can see the DIRCM integrated in the system (naturally its export version President-S) in a video showing its main characteristics.


    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyPR6uL6NBI


    .... and in action in live tests


    www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hvZ5lU0MA0

    From all mine informations MANTA system is merely a joint venture program purposely aimed to export , in particular for integration on not russian aircraft and is optimized for VIP civil airplanes and slow transport aircraft (A400M, C-17, C-27, C-130 and C-295 etc..).
    Do you have any information that Russian Defence have abandoned,in the last few months,an highly advanced integrated DAS like Vitebsk-M, fruit of a long R&D program,in favour of an immensely inferior joint-project mainly designed for export and for protection of civil airliners from MANPADS ?



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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:31 am

    Forgot about the President system, yes... substitute President for Manta in my previous posts.

    Hopefully it will be used in the new Su-25SM upgrade along with integration with Russian helos etc.

    I remember seeing components of President on a Mi-26 too.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:Forgot about the President system, yes... substitute President for Manta in my previous posts.

    Hopefully it will be used in the new Su-25SM upgrade along with integration with Russian helos etc.

    I remember seeing components of President on a Mi-26 too.


    Yes the system was already tested two years ago and validated in live fire tests,on Mi-26 in both the improved internal version Vitebsk-M and the export version President-S.
    What sincerely i find truly worrying is that Mi-28N ,at today, don't have any serious integrated DAS on the horizon (a version of Vitebsk-M for Mi-28N/NM will be no ready before 2013 ...);if the situation is not a problem for the mass induction in Russian Armed Forces inserted in the 2020 modernization plan, which will ostensibly wait for the near completion of MI-28NM upgrade,with integration of "Hermes" AG missile and the new radar and optronic tracking system, the situation represent a significant problem for export potential of Mi-28E for at least 5-6 years .
    We all know that the Kamov product is ,obviously, vastly superior in pratically any cardinal parameter to Mi-28N .....but in the same measure also much more mantaineance intensive and difficult and slow to produce...,but taking into consideration that the high-composite hull of KA-50/52 is already (at least in its internal version) absurdely resilient to enemy fire


    http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2009/10/russian-approaches-to-combat-helicopter.html


    and that the lack of tail rotor render it much less prone to the type of damages responsible for majority of helicopter's downings and that the Mi-28E is offered now as the standard export attack helicopter in international tenders ,i find truly unexplicable that the priority for the adaption of the integrated DAS was not gived to Mi-28N/NM.
    From the last news seem that even the integration of the first helicopter AESA radar by Phazotron-NIIR will be for Ka-52/K , it is understandable to give the priority for new system test and integration to the platform by the greater potential ,but neglect in this way the platform which will be mass produced for Army truly puzzle me.

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    GarryB

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    CAS protection

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:05 am

    You raise a lot of valid questions... even late model Hinds had ESM equipment and jammers and warning systems etc.
    The fact that they have tested the system on the Mi-26 clearly shows they have worked with the system makers and the videos showing the system tests include videos of Mi-8s too.

    I didn't see any video footage of the Ka-52 with the system, and have seen only a couple of Kamovs with the system fitted, but the new Ka-52s seem to have the turret positions for the system if not the system itself which is a worry because there are no similar equivalents for the Mi-28Ns that I have seen.

    Apart from the wingtip pods earlier models don't seem to have the sensors you'd normally expect for a self defence suite, though I do remember seeing sensors on a recent build Mi-28N.

    I would expect both the Ka-52 and Mi-28N are amongst the best protected helos in the world with regard to armour protection.

    The vulnerability of the tail rotor to enemy fire is mainly during takeoff and landing and the threat is from unguided RPG rockets as few MANPADS will home in on a tail rotor structure. It is probably more of an issue for western helos as they tend to hover more, while Soviet and Russian helos don't hover to fire as much because their missiles don't trail control wires like TOW and HOT do.

    Therefore it is mostly transports that are vulnerable to RPG fire... and the best defence from that is good suppressive fire during landing and takeoff.

    From the last news seem that even the integration of the first helicopter AESA radar by Phazotron-NIIR will be for Ka-52/K , it is understandable to give the priority for new system test and integration to the platform by the greater potential ,but neglect in this way the platform which will be mass produced for Army truly puzzle me.

    An AESA radar in X band will give the helo a ground attack capability comparable to a modern fighterbomber, which is to say probably not as good as a MMW radar setup in the air to ground mode. It will be far better at much longer range to detect surface vessels and aircraft. I think there are two reasons for this... the Ka-52 already has the nose position for a radar array, and of course in the role of naval strike an AESA radar makes rather more sense than for an attack helo on land.

    It is very likely that the new Mi-28M will have a very different nose as the thimble antenna for the Shturm/Ataka will likely go and the optics arrangement will change completely. The sides of the cockpit will be expanded outwards for the cheek positions for ammo storage for the 30mm cannon.

    Whether they move the MMW radar to the nose or not I don't know, but with this DAS system the need for the 360 degree air search radar is reduced... it is not a fighter and would call on air protection if air threats became a problem.




    As you can see in this photo the upper EO ball has two small sensors either side of it (and outside of those are two retractible lights in the retracted position.)

    Due to the non retractible nature of the Mi-28s undercarriage I would expect a wingtip position for any DIRCM turret as shown on the President video for the Mi-8s.
    I would think an above wing pylon with an array of chaff and flare launchers might be a useful addition to free up the wingtip pylon for sensors and laser turrets.
    A tail tip turret would assure 360 degree coverage and protection for the aircraft with a flare launcher to fire a flare cloud to the rear in case of an attack from the side.
    An attack from the front or rear could be countered using wing mounted flare launchers to create flare clouds to either side of the aircraft, but these might not be so effective in an attack from the side.
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    Cyberspec

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    Su-25SM/Su-25UBM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:20 am

    Official numbers (from government orders) for Su-25's upgraded to the Su-25SM standard have been published.

    If I translated it correctly, 43 x Su-25SM have been upgraded so far and 36 have been ordered for the period of 2011-2013...

    info taken from here:
    http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/0/co/2237943.htm

    Original source:

    http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=1587864

    http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/order_document_list_info/show?notificationId=1587864
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:00 am

    Have read reports that the SM upgrade for the Su-25 was changed after the Georgian invasion of SO, and the upgrade was described as Su-25SM2.

    Does anyone else know anything about this?

    I would hope that they added the President-M self defence suite to the upgrade, but have no information about it.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:54 am

    A Su-25SM3 was mentioned at Maks 2011, but one of the old SM prototypes was shown.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:57 am

    Plans to upgrade all operational Su-25's to SM standard. That's about 200 aircraft all up.

    A contract for Su-25SM upgrade in the period of 2011-2013 has been placed....it's believed to be for 36 aircraft.

    http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=1587864

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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:56 am

    That is excellent news.

    The Su-25 is a very effective aircraft and with proper upgrades it can be even more effective with better safety for the crew.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:14 pm

    Su-25SM have different RWR system than original Su-25. Anyone know if new RWR system enable Su-25SM to use antiradar missiles for self defense? Also original Su-25 use SPS-141 ECM pods, Is Su-25SM able to use more modern ECM pods like those, which are used on Flankers? This equipment would be very welcomed on Su-25SM specially for those in Russian Far East.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:41 pm

    The history is perhaps useful... they cheaped out on the Su-39 (Su-25TM) upgrade as being too expensive, and went for the Su-25SM upgrade instead that traded all weather optics for all weather radar... but even then they cheaped out and went for the cheaper option of a podded radar that was rarely fitted.

    Now with talk of all planes getting upgrades and Su-25SMx (1,2,3), perhaps they have found the funding for proper upgrades.

    Personally I think the Su-25TM upgrades are now a little obsolete and an upgrade that added a nose mounted radar and perhaps a fuselage side mounted pod like Sapsan-E, plus of course President-M ESM/DIRCMS suite and a glass cockpit and new weapons like Hermes, and 50kg sat guided bombs on Multiple Ejector Racks (MERs) would make a very potent attack aircraft with cheap precision weapons.

    Perhaps even the mini AESA radar being developed for the Naval Ka-52s would be useful in a nose mounted system for finding and tracking ground targets in all weather day and night.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:45 am

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/12/28/su25ubm/

    Russian air force successfully end state testing of Su-25UBM and now recommend it for serial production.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:08 pm

    That is good news too... the Su-25UBM is supposed to add the SM capabilities in a two seat aircraft.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:03 am

    True and Su-25UBM will be new build planes.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:50 pm

    Serial Su-25UBM appear in 2014
    The first production Su-25UBM for the Russian Air Force will be released Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant in 2014, reports "Interfax" referring to a source in the military-industrial complex. Technological preparation for series production aircraft will begin in 2012. Assembling the stormtroopers and their delivery to the troops provided for state armaments program for 2011-2020.

    As expected, the mass production of the Su-25UBM will continue at least until 2020. At present, negotiations are underway for the supply of such aircraft to several countries, therefore, subject to possible foreign orders release of storm troopers continue after 2020.

    Earlier it was reported that the Russian Air Force signed an act of completion of the state tests of the Su-25UBM, which is a deep modernization of the Su-25UB. This aircraft can be used for pilot training and for combat missions. Compared to its predecessor, the flight characteristics of the Su-25UBM not changed, but its combat capabilities have increased dramatically.

    As part of the modernization program of attack aircraft, it set a new sighting and navigation system "Leopard", which includes processing and display system information, system of satellite and short-range navigation and electronic intelligence station. In the cockpit there are two liquid-crystal displays.

    Interesting they have export interest... this would be a very effective COIN aircraft.

    Another thing to point out is that the Su-25UBM is basically the two seat Su-25 with an Su-25SM upgrade.

    The Su-25T and Su-25TM were both based on the two seat version with more space for avionics and fuel and fitted out as single seaters. The Su-25SM is a single seater.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:09 am

    Production of new build Su-25UBM show, that in long term Russia will not replace CAS planes with multifunctional as it is now trend in the West, but will old Su-25 be replaced with new build Su-25UBM, which will fly for decades. If they will place day/night targeting pod on centerline pylon, than it will become all weather CAS plane, which could made another excellent duet SU-25UBM - Mi-28N as was duet Su-25 - Mi-24.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:55 pm

    I totally agree, night and all weather targeting capability with guided missiles and bombs will greatly improve their ability to support ground forces.

    A new DIRCMs and ESM system will also greatly reduce losses... the losses in South Ossetia were due reportedly to BUK and multiple MANPADS... several aircraft made it back to base with one engine trashed. DIRCM should deal with that.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:51 pm

    With guided weapons and DIRCM Su-25UBM will be less exposed to MANPADs, than by using only dumb bombs and rockets. I wonder if it will be equipped with similar data link as Ka-52, that they could share datas of targets.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Russian Air Force completes Su-25UBM flight tests

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:57 pm

    The Russian Air Force has completed flight tests of the modernized Sukhoi Su-25UBM ground attack-trainer aircraft, Defense Ministry spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Tuesday.

    “Air Force commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin signed off on the completion of flight tests for the Su-25UBM at the end of December 2011,” Drik said.

    The Su-25UBM is a heavily modernized variant of the Su-25 capable of training and strike missions, and is fitted with a new radar, more powerful and accurate weapons, an automated mission system and increased battlefield survivability and reliability.

    The Su-25UBM, which will replace the older Su-25UB, has similar combat capability to the single-seat Su-25SM strike aircraft and is day, night and poor-weather capable.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120110/170692803.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:46 am

    Fitted with a new radar?

    The Su-25UBM, which will replace the older Su-25UB, has similar combat capability to the single-seat Su-25SM strike aircraft and is day, night and poor-weather capable.

    The Su-25SM was supposed to be fitted with a nose mounted radar as a cheap way of giving it day and night and all weather capability, but in the end they decided on going the even cheaper route of having a pod mounted Kopyo radar mounted on the centreline when needed.

    This article seems to suggest the two seat model is getting its radar... anyone have pictures?

    To be honest I think a Sapsan targeting pod in the belly mount position might be a good compromise for the two seat Frogfoot as the second crewman can concentrate on scanning for targets, while the pilot flys the plane.

    Note the Su-25T and the Su-25TM upgraded aircraft with Vikhr ATGMs and the Shkval-M electro optic targeting system (related to the system fitted to the Ka-50 Hokum) didn't get anywhere because it was considered too expensive... which was a shame.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:10 am

    Definitely has no radar, basically an updated, two seat Su-25SM3. Kopyo pod is not in use with Su-25SM units in any case, unfortunately.

    Su-25T had a number of problems, both with airframe and systems, expense was not the only issue, keep that in mind.
    Same with Sapsan, looks like new pod is realistic alternative to inadequate UOMZ Sapsan.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:33 am

    Same with Sapsan, looks like new pod is realistic alternative to inadequate UOMZ Sapsan.

    New pod?

    Are they using Damocles?

    I remember a while back that Piotr Butowski had an article in AFM or AirInt that mentioned the Solluks pod.

    I would think a targeting pod would be the simplest and cheapest way to give the aircraft day and night all weather capability for minimum outlay.

    A decent pod with thermal sights, laser rangefinder/target marker, and Glonass would enable the pilot to lase a target and pass precise target data to any on board GLONASS guided bombs or laser homing missiles on the fly.

    BTW it doesn't really matter whether SAPSAN is bad or not... for old model Mig-29s it will give them decent air to ground capability, and further improved models will do better.

    The old Soviet technology Mercury thermal imaging pod was no good either, but as they improve their abilities new pods should be well worth looking at.

    Look at the strides forward their ECM pods have made with new electronics.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  JPJ on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:03 pm

    Hi
    Here you can see a Su 25UBM fitted with a Kopyo radar http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2011/4/19/261/
    and here a comment about that http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2010/12/17/51/

    best regards
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:53 am

    Thanks.

    BTW I notice this is your first post, and as a mod I am compelled to remind you that it is a forum rule that your first post should be an introduction in the "Welcome to the Russian Military Forum" section there is a subsection called "Member Introductions and Rules" where you can create a new thread and post a short introduction to introduce yourself.
    We can then say hi. Smile

    Note this is a courtesy thing so the rest of the boards members have an idea about who they are talking to, you don't need to delete existing posts, but please make your next post an introduction... Smile

    It only takes a few seconds and is quite painless and while you are in that section you might like to flick through the introductions of other members to get an idea of who you are talking to. santa

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