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    Su-25SM numbers

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    Cyberspec
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    Su-25SM/Su-25UBM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:20 am

    Official numbers (from government orders) for Su-25's upgraded to the Su-25SM standard have been published.

    If I translated it correctly, 43 x Su-25SM have been upgraded so far and 36 have been ordered for the period of 2011-2013...

    info taken from here:
    http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/0/co/2237943.htm

    Original source:

    http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=1587864

    http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/order_document_list_info/show?notificationId=1587864

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:00 am

    Have read reports that the SM upgrade for the Su-25 was changed after the Georgian invasion of SO, and the upgrade was described as Su-25SM2.

    Does anyone else know anything about this?

    I would hope that they added the President-M self defence suite to the upgrade, but have no information about it.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:54 am

    A Su-25SM3 was mentioned at Maks 2011, but one of the old SM prototypes was shown.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:57 am

    Plans to upgrade all operational Su-25's to SM standard. That's about 200 aircraft all up.

    A contract for Su-25SM upgrade in the period of 2011-2013 has been placed....it's believed to be for 36 aircraft.

    http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=1587864


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:56 am

    That is excellent news.

    The Su-25 is a very effective aircraft and with proper upgrades it can be even more effective with better safety for the crew.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:14 pm

    Su-25SM have different RWR system than original Su-25. Anyone know if new RWR system enable Su-25SM to use antiradar missiles for self defense? Also original Su-25 use SPS-141 ECM pods, Is Su-25SM able to use more modern ECM pods like those, which are used on Flankers? This equipment would be very welcomed on Su-25SM specially for those in Russian Far East.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:41 pm

    The history is perhaps useful... they cheaped out on the Su-39 (Su-25TM) upgrade as being too expensive, and went for the Su-25SM upgrade instead that traded all weather optics for all weather radar... but even then they cheaped out and went for the cheaper option of a podded radar that was rarely fitted.

    Now with talk of all planes getting upgrades and Su-25SMx (1,2,3), perhaps they have found the funding for proper upgrades.

    Personally I think the Su-25TM upgrades are now a little obsolete and an upgrade that added a nose mounted radar and perhaps a fuselage side mounted pod like Sapsan-E, plus of course President-M ESM/DIRCMS suite and a glass cockpit and new weapons like Hermes, and 50kg sat guided bombs on Multiple Ejector Racks (MERs) would make a very potent attack aircraft with cheap precision weapons.

    Perhaps even the mini AESA radar being developed for the Naval Ka-52s would be useful in a nose mounted system for finding and tracking ground targets in all weather day and night.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:45 am

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/12/28/su25ubm/

    Russian air force successfully end state testing of Su-25UBM and now recommend it for serial production.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:08 pm

    That is good news too... the Su-25UBM is supposed to add the SM capabilities in a two seat aircraft.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:03 am

    True and Su-25UBM will be new build planes.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:50 pm

    Serial Su-25UBM appear in 2014
    The first production Su-25UBM for the Russian Air Force will be released Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant in 2014, reports "Interfax" referring to a source in the military-industrial complex. Technological preparation for series production aircraft will begin in 2012. Assembling the stormtroopers and their delivery to the troops provided for state armaments program for 2011-2020.

    As expected, the mass production of the Su-25UBM will continue at least until 2020. At present, negotiations are underway for the supply of such aircraft to several countries, therefore, subject to possible foreign orders release of storm troopers continue after 2020.

    Earlier it was reported that the Russian Air Force signed an act of completion of the state tests of the Su-25UBM, which is a deep modernization of the Su-25UB. This aircraft can be used for pilot training and for combat missions. Compared to its predecessor, the flight characteristics of the Su-25UBM not changed, but its combat capabilities have increased dramatically.

    As part of the modernization program of attack aircraft, it set a new sighting and navigation system "Leopard", which includes processing and display system information, system of satellite and short-range navigation and electronic intelligence station. In the cockpit there are two liquid-crystal displays.

    Interesting they have export interest... this would be a very effective COIN aircraft.

    Another thing to point out is that the Su-25UBM is basically the two seat Su-25 with an Su-25SM upgrade.

    The Su-25T and Su-25TM were both based on the two seat version with more space for avionics and fuel and fitted out as single seaters. The Su-25SM is a single seater.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:09 am

    Production of new build Su-25UBM show, that in long term Russia will not replace CAS planes with multifunctional as it is now trend in the West, but will old Su-25 be replaced with new build Su-25UBM, which will fly for decades. If they will place day/night targeting pod on centerline pylon, than it will become all weather CAS plane, which could made another excellent duet SU-25UBM - Mi-28N as was duet Su-25 - Mi-24.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:55 pm

    I totally agree, night and all weather targeting capability with guided missiles and bombs will greatly improve their ability to support ground forces.

    A new DIRCMs and ESM system will also greatly reduce losses... the losses in South Ossetia were due reportedly to BUK and multiple MANPADS... several aircraft made it back to base with one engine trashed. DIRCM should deal with that.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:51 pm

    With guided weapons and DIRCM Su-25UBM will be less exposed to MANPADs, than by using only dumb bombs and rockets. I wonder if it will be equipped with similar data link as Ka-52, that they could share datas of targets.

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    Russian Air Force completes Su-25UBM flight tests

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:57 pm

    The Russian Air Force has completed flight tests of the modernized Sukhoi Su-25UBM ground attack-trainer aircraft, Defense Ministry spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said on Tuesday.

    “Air Force commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin signed off on the completion of flight tests for the Su-25UBM at the end of December 2011,” Drik said.

    The Su-25UBM is a heavily modernized variant of the Su-25 capable of training and strike missions, and is fitted with a new radar, more powerful and accurate weapons, an automated mission system and increased battlefield survivability and reliability.

    The Su-25UBM, which will replace the older Su-25UB, has similar combat capability to the single-seat Su-25SM strike aircraft and is day, night and poor-weather capable.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120110/170692803.html

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:46 am

    Fitted with a new radar?

    The Su-25UBM, which will replace the older Su-25UB, has similar combat capability to the single-seat Su-25SM strike aircraft and is day, night and poor-weather capable.

    The Su-25SM was supposed to be fitted with a nose mounted radar as a cheap way of giving it day and night and all weather capability, but in the end they decided on going the even cheaper route of having a pod mounted Kopyo radar mounted on the centreline when needed.

    This article seems to suggest the two seat model is getting its radar... anyone have pictures?

    To be honest I think a Sapsan targeting pod in the belly mount position might be a good compromise for the two seat Frogfoot as the second crewman can concentrate on scanning for targets, while the pilot flys the plane.

    Note the Su-25T and the Su-25TM upgraded aircraft with Vikhr ATGMs and the Shkval-M electro optic targeting system (related to the system fitted to the Ka-50 Hokum) didn't get anywhere because it was considered too expensive... which was a shame.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:10 am

    Definitely has no radar, basically an updated, two seat Su-25SM3. Kopyo pod is not in use with Su-25SM units in any case, unfortunately.

    Su-25T had a number of problems, both with airframe and systems, expense was not the only issue, keep that in mind.
    Same with Sapsan, looks like new pod is realistic alternative to inadequate UOMZ Sapsan.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:33 am

    Same with Sapsan, looks like new pod is realistic alternative to inadequate UOMZ Sapsan.

    New pod?

    Are they using Damocles?

    I remember a while back that Piotr Butowski had an article in AFM or AirInt that mentioned the Solluks pod.

    I would think a targeting pod would be the simplest and cheapest way to give the aircraft day and night all weather capability for minimum outlay.

    A decent pod with thermal sights, laser rangefinder/target marker, and Glonass would enable the pilot to lase a target and pass precise target data to any on board GLONASS guided bombs or laser homing missiles on the fly.

    BTW it doesn't really matter whether SAPSAN is bad or not... for old model Mig-29s it will give them decent air to ground capability, and further improved models will do better.

    The old Soviet technology Mercury thermal imaging pod was no good either, but as they improve their abilities new pods should be well worth looking at.

    Look at the strides forward their ECM pods have made with new electronics.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  JPJ on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:03 pm

    Hi
    Here you can see a Su 25UBM fitted with a Kopyo radar http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2011/4/19/261/
    and here a comment about that http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2010/12/17/51/

    best regards

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:53 am

    Thanks.

    BTW I notice this is your first post, and as a mod I am compelled to remind you that it is a forum rule that your first post should be an introduction in the "Welcome to the Russian Military Forum" section there is a subsection called "Member Introductions and Rules" where you can create a new thread and post a short introduction to introduce yourself.
    We can then say hi. Smile

    Note this is a courtesy thing so the rest of the boards members have an idea about who they are talking to, you don't need to delete existing posts, but please make your next post an introduction... Smile

    It only takes a few seconds and is quite painless and while you are in that section you might like to flick through the introductions of other members to get an idea of who you are talking to. santa

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:20 am

    Ah, thats actually a good photo, thanks man, if that is indeed the new build Su-25UBM, never seen it with Kopyo. Ofc, talk of trials ending has been had for years now, and the question of the Air Force actually getting Kopyo pods is another thing altogether.

    Certainly hope it happens, operating with only dumb weaponry is getting long in the tooth.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:26 am

    Actually all Su-25s can operate laser guided bombs and rockets, though with the laser system in the tip of the nose they can mark targets for their own missiles but would need another aircraft to mark targets for bombs.

    (ie one aircraft hangs back and marks the target with its laser while another aircraft flys towards the target and releases a laser guided bomb and then can turn away.

    For missiles like the Kh-25ML and Kh-29L they can mark their own targets.

    According to info I have from 2004 the Su-25SM has the Bars digital avionics system (note in a news report I have seen mention that Bars-2 is fitted to the Su-25UBM), the Pastel ESM system, and an active electronic jamming station, HUD, and MFD.
    Onboard testing and system monitoring systems reduces maintainence and service times by 25-30%.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:03 am

    Personally I hope they have added the guidance computer they were displaying for the Su-24M and Tu-22M3, that generates projected impact points for unguided rockets and bombs in free flight.

    It means a circle appears in the HUD and the pilot just manouvers the aircraft to put the circle on the target and then releases the weapon to get a good chance of a hit.

    It greatly increases the accuracy of dumb weapons against the sort of visible targets the Su-25 was designed to engage, for a small initial outlay.

    Most of the time precision guided weapons are good for dangerous point targets, but for most targets you want the accuracy of a guided weapon with the cost of an unguided bomb or rocket... the computer aiming system offers that.

    Of course they need some guided weapons as well... GLONASS guided bombs in the 50kg, 100kg, and 250kg weight range would be ideal for using near friendly troops to hit enemy targets without leveling the whole village.

    Of course if you corner some terrorists in a mountain valley a few FAB-3000 or even FAB-9000 bombs delivered by Tu-22M3s would do the trick too. Smile

    The Ugroza guidance kits for rockets would also improve the performance of the Su-25SM as each rocket suddenly gets the accuracy of an ATGM and can be used at extended ranges with confidence of a hit.

    Carrying HERMES like weapons will be useful, but a 20 shot rocket pod with 80mm guided rockets each able to take out a truck or bunker with a single shot maximises its performance, and with terminal guidance it means rockets can be fired from max range which increases the safety of the aircraft by using the weapons from standoff range.

    Of course these days they could have a high flying UAV with a laser target marker just circling the targets with Su-25s lofting laser homing rockets towards the targets for max standoff range and minimal exposure to enemy fire.

    Fitting an Su-25 with a targeting pod like Damocles means it could operate above enemy fire and still find and engage targets much more cheaply than a medium fighter could.

    The satellite navigation and laser ranging allowing the pod to calculate the coordinates of the target means that data could be directly passed to satellite guided bombs under the Su-25s wings and released in real time... lighter weight bombs minimising the threat to nearby friendly forces.

    (Note my emphasis on friendly forces nearby is because the CAS role of the Su-25 is to engage targets close to friendly forces giving them problems... it might be a bunker or tank or it could be a machine gun position amongst rocks or a sniper position identified by ground forces. Bombs of 50-250kg means you can release the weapons nearer to friendly troops than you could with standard 500kg or heavier bombs safely... the precision meaning they are still effective on target despite being lighter.)

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:59 pm

    Su-25UBM on the picture looks the same standard as Su-25SM, so it could also show the level of modernization for existing Su-25UB into Su-25UBM, on the other hand new build Su-25UBM could be redesigned for better equipment and to use radar, because they will have the whole lifetime beneath them and will work for a longer time.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:55 am

    The Su-25UBM has the advantage of two crew so the guy in the back can be using radar or damocles like targeting pod to find and engage targets while the pilot keeps the bird in the air and looks for threats and targets.

    With the powerful magnified all weather optics of a targeting pod the aircraft can fly higher (and safer) in COIN operations.

    The built in satellite navigation should allow forces on the ground to give the Frogfoot specific coordinates to look to find the threats/targets which should make the search even easier.

    As targeting pods have laser target markers that can rotate and point below and behind the aircraft it can be used for laser guided bombs, while the nose mounted laser system can be used for laser guided rockets and missiles.

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