Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Share

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:09 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    mutantsushi wrote:I've seen criticism that Angara is not cost-effective enough, that it doesn't take into account more aggressive cost/launch metrics ala SpaceX.

    Meh.  There is much hoopla about SpaceX pricing, but Musk isn't opening his books and there is no way to know if he is actually making any money. I rather suspect that he is running a loss and using profits from his other enterprises to sustain SpaceX activities.  His aggressive ploys to undermine ULA and Arianspace suggest that his plan is to grab market share and then jack up prices.

    Angaras' principal value is as a domestic-built launcher for national security payloads using non-toxic fuels that can be launched from Russian territory.  Optimal cost-effectiveness is not such a priority, as while it may be desirable to minimise costs, where the rocket builder is a 100% state owned enterprise servicing state payloads, some inefficiencies can be tolerated as operating margins are ultimately recycled back to the state authorities rather than pocketed by private interests (and much of the money flows to the pockets of local workers and thereby ploughed back into the local economy).  I have no doubt that Angara can compete with Musks rocket, particularly if the reuseable Baikal strap-ons are developed (fly-back boosters functioning as a UAV and landing on an airstrip would be a more reliable system than SpaceXs rocket powered descent and landing legs).

    I don't doubt the estimated cost of the Falcon 9, but the "cost" of the Falcon Heavy seems to be extremely overoptimistic... I think Musk is legitimately trying to make space travel cheaper, well, maybe trying to make a few bucks on the side...

    Even though cost isn't a number one priority, I don't expect the Angara to be expensive by any measure...

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2521
    Points : 2654
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:49 am

    The videos of the Angara hanger where it is being assembled are a good indication that the project is not some maximal taxpayer waste. The designers are not BSing when they highlight its modularity. I really do not see where the cost savings can be obtained by Mr. Musk. Mr. Musk's product makes sense in the USA where a single launch of an atmospheric sounding satellite costs over 320 million dollars (the overhead taken by NASA to run the mission is much higher than the actual launch cost) but not in Russia.

    A lot of the hyping of Space-X looks to be ideologically driven and not based on actual cost figures.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:06 am

    kvs wrote:The videos of the Angara hanger where it is being assembled are a good indication that the project is not some maximal taxpayer waste.   The designers are not BSing when they highlight its modularity.   I really do not see where the cost savings can be obtained by Mr. Musk.   Mr. Musk's product makes sense in the USA where a single launch of an atmospheric sounding satellite costs over 320 million dollars (the overhead taken by NASA to run the mission is much higher than the actual launch cost) but not in Russia.  

    A lot of the hyping of Space-X looks to be ideologically driven and not based on actual cost figures.
    Saw them too... Angara should be 100% worth the time, money, and resources spent to develop it.

    I think SpaceX quotes the real price, but NASA doesn't half of the time. For instance, they claim the SLS will cost $500 million to launch, while the real figure is closer to multiple billion!

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:48 pm

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/750028

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2521
    Points : 2654
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:56 am

    Mike E wrote:http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/750028

    Journalists can never get the facts straight or a case of really bad editing. The launcher with 80 ton capacity expanding to 160 later is not in the Angara family. It is a new launcher design.

    But it is good to hear that things are on schedule.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:01 am

    kvs wrote:
    Mike E wrote:http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/750028

    Journalists can never get the facts straight or a case of really bad editing.   The launcher with 80 ton capacity expanding to 160 later is not in the Angara family.   It is a new launcher design.  

    But it is good to hear that things are on schedule.      

    Tell me about it.... They call it the "first launch" for crying out loud!

    Yes, hopefully we keep on hearing the good news!

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3228
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:45 pm


    So what Russia will build after Angara for heavy cargo?
    Is there anything official of of next generation super heavy rocket ? or it will be a re-use modernization of the Energia launcher?

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:13 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    So what Russia will build after Angara for heavy cargo?
    Is there anything official of of next generation super heavy rocket ? or it will be a re-use modernization of the Energia launcher?
    There is much more info on the super-heavy at the lifters thread.

    George1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 9432
    Points : 9924
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:02 am

    First launch of Russia's new Angara rocket due December 25

    Big_Gazza
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 508
    Points : 532
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:58 am

    George1 wrote:First launch of Russia's new Angara rocket due December 25

    Fingers crossed for an excellent addition to ones Christmas stocking... Go Angara!! russia thumbsup

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:15 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    George1 wrote:First launch of Russia's new Angara rocket due December 25

    Fingers crossed for an excellent addition to ones Christmas stocking...  Go Angara!!  russia thumbsup

    Yep, it will be our present! - As long as it is a success... I have to admit that I'm a little worried because of the higher chance of failure (5 boosters instead of one, all working on a different detachment unit....) and recent problems with propulsion units (briz-m).

    Big_Gazza
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 508
    Points : 532
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:24 am

    Mike E wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    George1 wrote:First launch of Russia's new Angara rocket due December 25

    Fingers crossed for an excellent addition to ones Christmas stocking...  Go Angara!!  russia thumbsup

    Yep, it will be our present! - As long as it is a success... I have to admit that I'm a little worried because of the higher chance of failure (5 boosters instead of one, all working on a different detachment unit....) and recent problems with propulsion units (briz-m).

    I'm not worried about the URM-1 or URM-2 performance, as the URM-1 has been tested 4 times successfully (3x by KSLV, where the SK components failed on the first 2 flights) and the URM-2 once by 1.2PP. Given that the inaugural flight is a dummy payload to low orbit, I don't consider the Briz-M represents much of a mission risk. Even if the worst came to pass, the flight would still be considered a success in the way that Energia-Polyot was a sucess, even though the prototype laser platform tech demonstrator was lost (as the cause was payload related - a fault attitude sensor - not the Energia vehicle). Confidence was sufficiently high after that flight to risk Buran on its inaugural unmanned flight, so that proves my point.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:55 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    George1 wrote:First launch of Russia's new Angara rocket due December 25

    Fingers crossed for an excellent addition to ones Christmas stocking...  Go Angara!!  russia thumbsup

    Yep, it will be our present! - As long as it is a success... I have to admit that I'm a little worried because of the higher chance of failure (5 boosters instead of one, all working on a different detachment unit....) and recent problems with propulsion units (briz-m).

    I'm not worried about the URM-1 or URM-2 performance, as the URM-1 has been tested 4 times successfully (3x by KSLV, where the SK components failed on the first 2 flights) and the URM-2 once by 1.2PP.  Given that the inaugural flight is a dummy payload to low orbit, I don't consider the Briz-M represents much of a mission risk.  Even if the worst came to pass, the flight would still be considered a success in the way that Energia-Polyot was a sucess, even though the prototype laser platform tech demonstrator was lost (as the cause was payload related - a fault attitude sensor - not the Energia vehicle).  Confidence was sufficiently high after that flight to risk Buran on its inaugural unmanned flight, so that proves my point.
    You just said it yourself... It has only been tested four times, and now they are strapping five of them together. I think it is a good thing they are launching the A5 so soon, but the URM-1 should've been tested at least a couple times more. The big thing IMO, is the detaching unit. The Soyuz (as we all know) used the most reliable system to date, while the Angara will be using an unproven model. Not to say it won't succed, but it does not give me much confidence and to be realistic, it shouldn't, after all it is a whole new rocket... I don't worry about the URM-2 as much, it is an upper-stage that can and will afford to be de-throttled. The Briz-M has proven to be shaky, as shown by the recent (and older) Proton launches. The one that launched just the other day dropped it in an unwanted orbit... That being said, it will be just a dummy payload launch sooooo...

    Big_Gazza
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 508
    Points : 532
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:30 am

    Mike E wrote:
    You just said it yourself... It has only been tested four times, and now they are strapping five of them together. I think it is a good thing they are launching the A5 so soon, but the URM-1 should've been tested at least a couple times more. The big thing IMO, is the detaching unit. The Soyuz (as we all know) used the most reliable system to date, while the Angara will be using an unproven model. Not to say it won't succed, but it does not give me much confidence and to be realistic, it shouldn't, after all it is a whole new rocket... I don't worry about the URM-2 as much, it is an upper-stage that can and will afford to be de-throttled. The Briz-M has proven to be shaky, as shown by the recent (and older) Proton launches. The one that launched just the other day dropped it in an unwanted orbit... That being said, it will be just a dummy payload launch sooooo...

    I take your point, but I think that Russia has enough experience in launching multi-stage rockets with strap-ons that such can be considered a mature and well-understood technique and represents a very low mission risk. Same goes for kerolox powerplants and flight controls, and launch pad ops. For me, the biggest area of concern is two-fold. Firstly there is vehicle dynamics and aerodynamics, though computational simulations are now light years ahead of what was available in Soviet times, and a repeat of unexpected vibrational modes in test flights (like those that bedevilled the N-1) are extremely unlikely. Secondly, there is the issue of manufacturing quality assurance which has lately afflicted both civilian and military launchers/rockets, so hopefully Krunichev has its A-team in the saddle and their best inspectors involved in manufacture and acceptance testing of all components/systems from external suppliers.

    I'm an optimistic sort of guy (I even gave Phobos-Grunt a 70% chance of success...) so I have fingers crossed and will hope for the best. I'd like nothing more than to see a series of flawless A5 launches to really piss of the US right wing and Russia's detractors in general Twisted Evil

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:49 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    You just said it yourself... It has only been tested four times, and now they are strapping five of them together. I think it is a good thing they are launching the A5 so soon, but the URM-1 should've been tested at least a couple times more. The big thing IMO, is the detaching unit. The Soyuz (as we all know) used the most reliable system to date, while the Angara will be using an unproven model. Not to say it won't succed, but it does not give me much confidence and to be realistic, it shouldn't, after all it is a whole new rocket... I don't worry about the URM-2 as much, it is an upper-stage that can and will afford to be de-throttled. The Briz-M has proven to be shaky, as shown by the recent (and older) Proton launches. The one that launched just the other day dropped it in an unwanted orbit... That being said, it will be just a dummy payload launch sooooo...

    I take your point, but I think that Russia has enough experience in launching multi-stage rockets with strap-ons that such can be considered a mature and well-understood technique and represents a very low mission risk.  Same goes for kerolox powerplants and flight controls, and launch pad ops.  For me, the biggest area of concern is two-fold.  Firstly there is vehicle dynamics and aerodynamics, though computational simulations are now light years ahead of what was available in Soviet times, and a repeat of unexpected vibrational modes in test flights (like those that bedevilled the N-1) are extremely unlikely.  Secondly, there is the issue of manufacturing quality assurance which has lately afflicted both civilian and military launchers/rockets, so hopefully Krunichev has its A-team in the saddle and their best inspectors involved in manufacture and acceptance testing of all components/systems from external suppliers.

    I'm an optimistic sort of guy (I even gave Phobos-Grunt a 70% chance of success...) so I have fingers crossed and will hope for the best.  I'd like nothing more than to see a series of flawless A5 launches to really piss of the US right wing and Russia's detractors in general Twisted Evil

    Agreed for the most part, but nothing beats some good ole' launch testing.... I doubt the A5 launch will result in failure, but that doesn't mean that they should skip some (extra) crucial testing because of it.

    I'm a pessimist for the most part, but the realism inside of me contradicts that at times.

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2521
    Points : 2654
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  kvs on Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:32 pm



    The A5 about to be erected at the launch pad.  


    George1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 9432
    Points : 9924
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:52 am

    Maiden Launch of Heavy Angara Rocket Is Due December 25: Roscosmos

    ZHUHAI, November 12 (RIA Novosti) – Russia’s new heavy Angara rocket will make its maiden flight from the Plesetsk Space Center in northwestern Russia on December 25, the head of the Russian space agency Roscosmos said Wednesday.

    “I have just received a report on the issue. All preparations are moving along according to schedule,” Oleg Ostapenko told RIA Novosti on the sidelines of the Airshow China-2014 space exhibition.

    During the week before the maiden flight, experts will conduct various tests to ensure launch complex' and rocket's readiness for the successful launch, Russia's construction watchdog Spetstroy said.

    The Angara family of rockets, in development since 1995, is being built in light, semi-heavy and heavy versions to lift a variety of payloads between two and 40 metric tons into low Earth orbit.

    The development of super-heavy version of the Angara was included into Russia’s draft 2016-2025 federal space program, Ostapenko said without giving further details.

    The first manned flight of the heavy Angara is expected to take place in 2018. It will launch from the Vostochny Cosmodrome in Amur region, in the Russian Far East.

    Earlier, Roscosmos said that new Angara rocket will give Russia an independent access to the space, and a possibility to advance to a new technological development level. Angara will put heavy space vehicles into the geostationary orbit. All parts used for rocket development have been produced in Russia, which secures the process safety in the country. Apart from the above, ecologically clean fuel will be used in the rocket, including oxygen and kerosene.

    In Russia, heavy Angara will replace Proton rocket family, which has been previously used to put space vehicles into the low Earth orbit.


    coolieno99
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Posts : 136
    Points : 159
    Join date : 2010-08-25

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  coolieno99 on Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:12 pm

    nice video of  Angara A5  space launch vehicle

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201411102356-kagv.htm

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:06 pm

    The roll control of the core stage of Angara-5, Angara-5P, Angara-7, ... is sure very interesting.

    Does everybody think what I am thinking of?

    Here's the best picture I have of the tail section of the Angara-1.2PP. Interesting.



    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:01 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The roll control of the core stage of Angara-5, Angara-5P, Angara-7, ... is sure very interesting.

    Does everybody think what I am thinking of?

    Here's the best picture I have of the tail section of the Angara-1.2PP. Interesting.
    Roll control... Do you mean the "tails"? - Which are, AFAIK, only installed on the 1.2PP. 

    ?

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:42 am

    Mike E wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The roll control of the core stage of Angara-5, Angara-5P, Angara-7, ... is sure very interesting.

    Does everybody think what I am thinking of?

    Here's the best picture I have of the tail section of the Angara-1.2PP. Interesting.
    Roll control... Do you mean the "tails"? - Which are, AFAIK, only installed on the 1.2PP. 

    ?

    A little bit of elaboration on my previous post:

    - Angara-5 core has no roll control tail surfaces.
    - They say it uses thrusters for roll control.
    - I am not sure if I see two thrusters or four. Whether there are two thrusters or four thrusters, they are positioned asymmetrically.
    - Ignoring hidden aspects of the design, the asymetrical positioning of roll thrusters is "wasteful".
    - If the Angara-5 core can use roll control thrusters for roll control, why did Angara-1.2PP and Naro-1 needed roll control tail surfaces. Is it just because of the fact that the Angara-5 core at separation is lighter and has a lower moment of inertia around the roll axis, having already burned some of its propellants, than Angara-1.2PP at launch with full tanks? What other reason can there be?
    - How about Angara-7? It's core surely would't fire before separation; so it would even be heavier and with a larger moment of inertia around the roll axis than Angara-1.2PP at launch.
    - Very interesting.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:49 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The roll control of the core stage of Angara-5, Angara-5P, Angara-7, ... is sure very interesting.

    Does everybody think what I am thinking of?

    Here's the best picture I have of the tail section of the Angara-1.2PP. Interesting.
    Roll control... Do you mean the "tails"? - Which are, AFAIK, only installed on the 1.2PP. 

    ?

    A little bit of elaboration on my previous post:

    - Angara-5 core has no roll control tail surfaces.
    - They say it uses thrusters for roll control.
    - I am not sure if I see two thrusters or four. Whether there are two thrusters or four thrusters, they are positioned asymmetrically.
    - Ignoring hidden aspects of the design, the asymetrical positioning of roll thrusters is "wasteful".
    - If the Angara-5 core can use roll control thrusters for roll control, why did Angara-1.2PP and Naro-1 needed roll control tail surfaces. Is it just because of the fact that the Angara-5 core at separation is lighter and has a lower moment of inertia around the roll axis, having already burned some of its propellants, than Angara-1.2PP at launch with full tanks? What other reason can there be?
    - How about Angara-7? It's core surely would't fire before separation; so it would even be heavier and with a larger moment of inertia around the roll axis than Angara-1.2PP at launch.
    - Very interesting.

    Yep, and it doesn't need them... 

    It appears so, most launch vehicles do if their engines aren't up to the task.

    There appears to be three, which is odd...

    Probably that reason... Plus, with more cores, there are more roll thrusters.

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:04 am

    Mike E wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The roll control of the core stage of Angara-5, Angara-5P, Angara-7, ... is sure very interesting.

    Does everybody think what I am thinking of?

    Here's the best picture I have of the tail section of the Angara-1.2PP. Interesting.
    Roll control... Do you mean the "tails"? - Which are, AFAIK, only installed on the 1.2PP. 

    ?

    A little bit of elaboration on my previous post:

    - Angara-5 core has no roll control tail surfaces.
    - They say it uses thrusters for roll control.
    - I am not sure if I see two thrusters or four. Whether there are two thrusters or four thrusters, they are positioned asymmetrically.
    - Ignoring hidden aspects of the design, the asymetrical positioning of roll thrusters is "wasteful".
    - If the Angara-5 core can use roll control thrusters for roll control, why did Angara-1.2PP and Naro-1 needed roll control tail surfaces. Is it just because of the fact that the Angara-5 core at separation is lighter and has a lower moment of inertia around the roll axis, having already burned some of its propellants, than Angara-1.2PP at launch with full tanks? What other reason can there be?
    - How about Angara-7? It's core surely would't fire before separation; so it would even be heavier and with a larger moment of inertia around the roll axis than Angara-1.2PP at launch.
    - Very interesting.

    Yep, and it doesn't need them... 

    It appears so, most launch vehicles do if their engines aren't up to the task.

    There appears to be three, which is odd...

    Probably that reason... Plus, with more cores, there are more roll thrusters.

    Can you elaborate?

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:09 am

    On what, the three thrusters?

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:22 am

    Mike E wrote:On what, the three thrusters?

    On the thrusters and the other things that you said.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 7:50 pm


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:50 pm