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ive recently watched the tv series called surviving the cut about marine scout snipers, i was really impressed, they have a really tough selection proccess, what i want to know is does russia have any sniper training which can match the yanky's high standard???
Russian Sniper units will be formed
ak74m- Private
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GarryB- Colonel
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The Soviets and Russians have plenty of elite forces trained to very high standards... including Vlad who created this forum.
The main difference however is that western snipers have been trained to shoot at very long distances... ie 800m+ whereas most Soviet and Russian snipers would not usually attempt such risky long range shots.
Obviously the west has developed weapons and ammo and learned the required skills for long range kills... to the point where many less well educated westerners don't consider the SVD to be a sniper rifle. They would call it a designated marksman rifle akin to the M14 or the M21 which is an M14 modified for accurate shooting.
In actual fact the SVD is a sniper rifle and was custom designed for the role, but for the role in the Soviet Union where most shots are taken from 600m or less.
It is sighted out to 1,200m or so, but that would just be for harassing fire against large numbers of enemy troops, or light vehicles like trucks.
The Russians probably have a much wider range of service weapons for "special use" than the west, including the SV-99 in .22lr calibre for sniping at up to 70m in an urban environment, through to AK-74Ms with a scope, VSS suppressed sniper rifles in 9 x 39mm calibre effective out to 400m, then you have the SVD out to 800m, the SV-98 to perhaps 1,000m and the OSV-96 in 12.7mm calibre that would probably be used out to about 1,800m or so, but more against vehicles and missile targets. They also have special 12.7mm suppressed sniper rifles and a few other weapons that have specialist use. Some special units have started looking at extended range shooting with bullet design and new propellent as well as new calibres.
There seems to be a lot of testing of .338 Laupa Magnum calibre weapons of which photos are on this forum somewhere, and I distinctly remember seeing a rifle made in Russia that uses a Cheytech calibre that is also designed for very long range use, so they are gradually changing their philosophy.
Of course for engaging point targets at 2km another option is the Metis-M1 system, where a 3 man team can carry a launcher and 5 missiles, each one with a range of 2km and a HE payload more powerful than anything you can put in a 50 cal bullet.
Also they have the 14.5mm HMG in their inventory which has twice the muzzle energy of a 50 cal and would be ideal out to about 2,500m or so.
I have heard talk of SLAP rounds for this calibre, but have never seen any myself... which makes sense... a SLAP round is not much use in a machine gun unless all the rounds are SLAPs as a sabot round generally has a completely different trajectory to other much lower velocity rounds so a mix of SLAP and standard ball rounds would be stupid as the bullets would be going everywhere.
In a dedicated sniper rifle however a SLAP round would be a very valuable round to use for all sorts of light armoured targets.
The 14.5 x 115mm round was modified in WWII by expanding the neck of the case to fit the 23mm projectile of the 23 x 152mm shell used in the Shturmovik and later a similar round used in the ground forces in the ZU-23 and the ZSU-23-4.
The resulting round was a low velocity weapon with a short case that was easy to use in rapid firing aircraft guns that had a projectile with a heavy HE payload.
The South Africans have an anti material rifle that can fire either a 20mm cannon shell or a 14.5mm HMG round. The 20mm shell lacks armour penetration performance, but carries a good HE payload out to about 1,600m, while the 14.5mm has good armour penetration performance and is accurate out to 2,500m.
It would certainly make sense for the Russians to make an anti material rifle based on the 23 x 115mm and the 14.5 x 115mm rounds in my opinion (if they haven't already done so).
The main difference however is that western snipers have been trained to shoot at very long distances... ie 800m+ whereas most Soviet and Russian snipers would not usually attempt such risky long range shots.
Obviously the west has developed weapons and ammo and learned the required skills for long range kills... to the point where many less well educated westerners don't consider the SVD to be a sniper rifle. They would call it a designated marksman rifle akin to the M14 or the M21 which is an M14 modified for accurate shooting.
In actual fact the SVD is a sniper rifle and was custom designed for the role, but for the role in the Soviet Union where most shots are taken from 600m or less.
It is sighted out to 1,200m or so, but that would just be for harassing fire against large numbers of enemy troops, or light vehicles like trucks.
The Russians probably have a much wider range of service weapons for "special use" than the west, including the SV-99 in .22lr calibre for sniping at up to 70m in an urban environment, through to AK-74Ms with a scope, VSS suppressed sniper rifles in 9 x 39mm calibre effective out to 400m, then you have the SVD out to 800m, the SV-98 to perhaps 1,000m and the OSV-96 in 12.7mm calibre that would probably be used out to about 1,800m or so, but more against vehicles and missile targets. They also have special 12.7mm suppressed sniper rifles and a few other weapons that have specialist use. Some special units have started looking at extended range shooting with bullet design and new propellent as well as new calibres.
There seems to be a lot of testing of .338 Laupa Magnum calibre weapons of which photos are on this forum somewhere, and I distinctly remember seeing a rifle made in Russia that uses a Cheytech calibre that is also designed for very long range use, so they are gradually changing their philosophy.
Of course for engaging point targets at 2km another option is the Metis-M1 system, where a 3 man team can carry a launcher and 5 missiles, each one with a range of 2km and a HE payload more powerful than anything you can put in a 50 cal bullet.
Also they have the 14.5mm HMG in their inventory which has twice the muzzle energy of a 50 cal and would be ideal out to about 2,500m or so.
I have heard talk of SLAP rounds for this calibre, but have never seen any myself... which makes sense... a SLAP round is not much use in a machine gun unless all the rounds are SLAPs as a sabot round generally has a completely different trajectory to other much lower velocity rounds so a mix of SLAP and standard ball rounds would be stupid as the bullets would be going everywhere.
In a dedicated sniper rifle however a SLAP round would be a very valuable round to use for all sorts of light armoured targets.
The 14.5 x 115mm round was modified in WWII by expanding the neck of the case to fit the 23mm projectile of the 23 x 152mm shell used in the Shturmovik and later a similar round used in the ground forces in the ZU-23 and the ZSU-23-4.
The resulting round was a low velocity weapon with a short case that was easy to use in rapid firing aircraft guns that had a projectile with a heavy HE payload.
The South Africans have an anti material rifle that can fire either a 20mm cannon shell or a 14.5mm HMG round. The 20mm shell lacks armour penetration performance, but carries a good HE payload out to about 1,600m, while the 14.5mm has good armour penetration performance and is accurate out to 2,500m.
It would certainly make sense for the Russians to make an anti material rifle based on the 23 x 115mm and the 14.5 x 115mm rounds in my opinion (if they haven't already done so).
ak74m- Private
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GarryB wrote:The Soviets and Russians have plenty of elite forces trained to very high standards... including Vlad who created this forum.
The main difference however is that western snipers have been trained to shoot at very long distances... ie 800m+ whereas most Soviet and Russian snipers would not usually attempt such risky long range shots.
Obviously the west has developed weapons and ammo and learned the required skills for long range kills... to the point where many less well educated westerners don't consider the SVD to be a sniper rifle. They would call it a designated marksman rifle akin to the M14 or the M21 which is an M14 modified for accurate shooting.
In actual fact the SVD is a sniper rifle and was custom designed for the role, but for the role in the Soviet Union where most shots are taken from 600m or less.
It is sighted out to 1,200m or so, but that would just be for harassing fire against large numbers of enemy troops, or light vehicles like trucks.
The Russians probably have a much wider range of service weapons for "special use" than the west, including the SV-99 in .22lr calibre for sniping at up to 70m in an urban environment, through to AK-74Ms with a scope, VSS suppressed sniper rifles in 9 x 39mm calibre effective out to 400m, then you have the SVD out to 800m, the SV-98 to perhaps 1,000m and the OSV-96 in 12.7mm calibre that would probably be used out to about 1,800m or so, but more against vehicles and missile targets. They also have special 12.7mm suppressed sniper rifles and a few other weapons that have specialist use. Some special units have started looking at extended range shooting with bullet design and new propellent as well as new calibres.
There seems to be a lot of testing of .338 Laupa Magnum calibre weapons of which photos are on this forum somewhere, and I distinctly remember seeing a rifle made in Russia that uses a Cheytech calibre that is also designed for very long range use, so they are gradually changing their philosophy.
Of course for engaging point targets at 2km another option is the Metis-M1 system, where a 3 man team can carry a launcher and 5 missiles, each one with a range of 2km and a HE payload more powerful than anything you can put in a 50 cal bullet.
Also they have the 14.5mm HMG in their inventory which has twice the muzzle energy of a 50 cal and would be ideal out to about 2,500m or so.
I have heard talk of SLAP rounds for this calibre, but have never seen any myself... which makes sense... a SLAP round is not much use in a machine gun unless all the rounds are SLAPs as a sabot round generally has a completely different trajectory to other much lower velocity rounds so a mix of SLAP and standard ball rounds would be stupid as the bullets would be going everywhere.
In a dedicated sniper rifle however a SLAP round would be a very valuable round to use for all sorts of light armoured targets.
The 14.5 x 115mm round was modified in WWII by expanding the neck of the case to fit the 23mm projectile of the 23 x 152mm shell used in the Shturmovik and later a similar round used in the ground forces in the ZU-23 and the ZSU-23-4.
The resulting round was a low velocity weapon with a short case that was easy to use in rapid firing aircraft guns that had a projectile with a heavy HE payload.
The South Africans have an anti material rifle that can fire either a 20mm cannon shell or a 14.5mm HMG round. The 20mm shell lacks armour penetration performance, but carries a good HE payload out to about 1,600m, while the 14.5mm has good armour penetration performance and is accurate out to 2,500m.
It would certainly make sense for the Russians to make an anti material rifle based on the 23 x 115mm and the 14.5 x 115mm rounds in my opinion (if they haven't already done so).
well i did know that russia has forces trained to high standards ( if not higher standards than western ones ) but thanks for the info, i didnt know alot of that, but dont you think that russia should creat something similar to the scout snipers and maybe employ a rifle similar to the l96 that the british use ( i know that this rifle is currently in service with the fsb) because i just think that such a unit would be able to out perform the marines if it is created
NationalRus- Sergeant
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that was a long thread titel
and about every halfway not assbackwards country has professional sniper training for ther snipers, its not rocket science
bisies russia has devoloped now too a 2km+ sniper rifle the Lobaev Sniper Rifle which is build for the 408. caliber
and about every halfway not assbackwards country has professional sniper training for ther snipers, its not rocket science
bisies russia has devoloped now too a 2km+ sniper rifle the Lobaev Sniper Rifle which is build for the 408. caliber
Pervius- Senior Sergeant
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.408_Chey_Tac
Russia is using an American long range caliber American shooters came up with... to protect Russian President Medvedev.
The .50 BMG is better on the battlefield. If you run out of match ammo...everyone will have 50BMG to scrounge and use instead to get by.
Which is why Russia also has the OSV-96 semi automatic 12.7x108mm....and KSVK 12.7x108mm bolt action rifles.
Those two use match grade sniper rifle ammo, but if they run out....they too can scrounge for 12.7x108mm from other units.
Both the US/Russia have the same big-bore Sniper theories. There is also Russian ASVK-KORD 12.7x108mm sniper rifle:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8pjSIhr2u8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYXuiC12AA
Russian long range snipers can match US snipers.
Russia is using an American long range caliber American shooters came up with... to protect Russian President Medvedev.
The .50 BMG is better on the battlefield. If you run out of match ammo...everyone will have 50BMG to scrounge and use instead to get by.
Which is why Russia also has the OSV-96 semi automatic 12.7x108mm....and KSVK 12.7x108mm bolt action rifles.
Those two use match grade sniper rifle ammo, but if they run out....they too can scrounge for 12.7x108mm from other units.
Both the US/Russia have the same big-bore Sniper theories. There is also Russian ASVK-KORD 12.7x108mm sniper rifle:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8pjSIhr2u8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYXuiC12AA
Russian long range snipers can match US snipers.
GarryB- Colonel
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but dont you think that russia should creat something similar to the scout snipers and maybe employ a rifle similar to the l96 that the british use ( i know that this rifle is currently in service with the fsb) because i just think that such a unit would be able to out perform the marines if it is created
You mean like the SV-98?
They are also working on a model in .338 Laupa Magnum calibre.
The SV-98 was developed by a guy that makes civilian target rifles, and the design is based on one of his previous rifle designs, though made of modern materials.
The .50 BMG is better on the battlefield. If you run out of match ammo...everyone will have 50BMG to scrounge and use instead to get by.
That is what I thought till I had a chat with a real sniper.
Standard HMG ammo is made to an accuracy standard that is much lower than the standard for long range precision work a sniper has to perform.
The Soviets and Russians have a long tradition of snipers... they just tended to get closer to their target than western snipers. Often it was dictated by the ammo they were using that was the limiting factor... in the battle for Stalingrad there were no extra shipments of special sniper ammo for the snipers... you had to use the ammo other riflemen were using which was not designed for precision at 800m plus ranges... it was designed to work in the cold weather and rough conditions.
The nearest equivalent to a marine scout sniper would be Army GRU sniper... GRU is army intel and recon forces.
Same job, similar equipment.
Normal issue after the 1960s was an SVD sniper rifle and as a side arm they often got special weapons like Stechkin machine pistols for self defence at close range.
Which is why Russia also has the OSV-96 semi automatic 12.7x108mm....and KSVK 12.7x108mm bolt action rifles.
And also this:
Flanky- Corporal
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Russians are reportedly interrested also in the anti-material rifle made in Azerbaijan called "Istigal".
But in any case yes they do have the long range sniping capability as well.
But in any case yes they do have the long range sniping capability as well.
franco- Private
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The new Brigades have a designated Sniper Platoon.The District Training Centers would have sniper training facilities and there is a national sniper school near Solnechnogorsk.
GarryB- Colonel
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Hey Flanky, got any more info about the Istigal?
I looked it up on google and it is a 14.5mm calibre rifle and the video said it weighed 20kgs but it had 34kgs as well, and that its effective range was 3,000m.
20kgs is a bit heavy... especially considering the PTRS-41 weighed about that much and it was a WWII design.
The calibre does dictate a heavy rifle however and it needs a long barrel to take advantage of the propellent capacity of the round.
Thanks to franco... interesting info... was going to vote for your post, but I have already voted today... so will try to remember to vote tomorrow.
I looked it up on google and it is a 14.5mm calibre rifle and the video said it weighed 20kgs but it had 34kgs as well, and that its effective range was 3,000m.
20kgs is a bit heavy... especially considering the PTRS-41 weighed about that much and it was a WWII design.
The calibre does dictate a heavy rifle however and it needs a long barrel to take advantage of the propellent capacity of the round.
Thanks to franco... interesting info... was going to vote for your post, but I have already voted today... so will try to remember to vote tomorrow.
coolieno99- Corporal
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Russia produced many fine snipers during World War 2. Lyudmila Mikhailivna Pavlichenko is one of the best sniper served in that War. She (yes, she is a woman) recorded 309 confirmed kills(German soldiers) including 36 snipers. She used the M1891/Mosin-Nagant 7.62mm 5-shot bolt-action sniper rifle with a 4X scope. Toward the end of the war she became an instructor at a sniper school.
Source: vincelewis.net
Source: vincelewis.net
GarryB- Colonel
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Plenty of opportunity for snipers in WWII especially on the eastern front.
... it was very common at Stalingrad.
... it was very common at Stalingrad.
Flanky- Corporal
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Regarding the Istigal - i have read somewhere (unfortunatelyl i don't remember, nor i do not know the credibility) that Izhevsk is in talks with RPE the azerbaijani firm that created the Istigal to purchase the license for serial production in Russia. And also that i know there are 2 versions of the rifle while the third one is currently in develpment.
A 20 mm caliber a 14,5 mm caliber (heavier one) and 12,7mm much less heavy.
A 20 mm caliber a 14,5 mm caliber (heavier one) and 12,7mm much less heavy.
GarryB- Colonel
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Well that would be the first I have heard of the Russian interest in the 14.5mm calibre in terms of weapons.
Of course up until recently they haven't been so interested in very long range work so for most roles the 12.7 x 108mm calibre has been sufficient.
For anti MRAP use they have developed a 30 x 165mm calibre weapon, which should offer the penetration AND shell capacity for a decent HE charge to both penetrate an MRAP type vehicle and also be quite destructive once inside the vehicle.
Of course to be effective... just like with 12.7mm ammo they will need dedicated 14.5mm ammo for this new rifle, which could include SLAP rounds which could be made to be quite impressive in performance terms.
There was a west european country that developed a 15mm calibre round based on the 14.5mm round that used modern propellent and projectiles and achieved a 40mm penetration performance at 1km range... which is pretty impressive.
Of course up until recently they haven't been so interested in very long range work so for most roles the 12.7 x 108mm calibre has been sufficient.
For anti MRAP use they have developed a 30 x 165mm calibre weapon, which should offer the penetration AND shell capacity for a decent HE charge to both penetrate an MRAP type vehicle and also be quite destructive once inside the vehicle.
Of course to be effective... just like with 12.7mm ammo they will need dedicated 14.5mm ammo for this new rifle, which could include SLAP rounds which could be made to be quite impressive in performance terms.
There was a west european country that developed a 15mm calibre round based on the 14.5mm round that used modern propellent and projectiles and achieved a 40mm penetration performance at 1km range... which is pretty impressive.
Cyberspec- Master Sergeant
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A new high precision rifle "ORSIS T-5000" was shown at N. Tagil show
...The performance characteristics of the rifle ORSIS T-5000 a guarantee to hit targets at any time of day and night in all weather conditions, without pre-zeroing and technical training at ranges up to 1 Km. The rifle comes in two calibers: 308 Winchester (7,62 x51 mm) for shooting at short and medium range and 338 Lapua Magnum (8,6 x70 mm) for shooting at medium and long distances. The rifle is designed to equip anti-terrorist and special units of law enforcement agencies of Russia with high quality weapons.
Interest in acquiring the product GC "Promtehnologii" is also present at the exhibition expressed by representatives of delegations from abroad.
http://www.orsis.com/about/news/1482/
GarryB- Colonel
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The presentation of the latest developments - the sniper rifle ORSIS T-5000.
At the VIII International exhibition of arms, "Nizhni Tagil - 2011" has been successfully demonstrated to the combat capabilities of the latest model produced by the Moscow arms factory GC "Promtehnologii."
One of the most notable developments of the international exhibition of armaments in Nizhny Tagil, REA-2011 was the presentation of the newest sniper rifle ORSIS T-5000. For the first time in the past two decades, Russia has managed to develop and launch into production a brand new sniper rifle, meets all modern requirements for such weapons.
Combat capabilities of the latest developments exhibitors successfully demonstrated a leading expert GC "Promtehnologii", a renowned expert in the field of precision shooting Dmitry Semizorov. Shooting took place with the usual rounds of easily destructible targets at distances of 100, 300 and 540 m. The precision of the battle rifle evoked prolonged applause at present stands professionals and VIP guests.
The performance characteristics of the rifle ORSIS T-5000 provides guaranteed to hit targets at any time of day and night in all weather conditions, without pre-zeroing and technical training at ranges up to a mile. The rifle comes in two calibers: 308 Winchester (7,62 x51 mm) for shooting at short and medium range and 338 Lapua Magnum (8,6 x70 mm) for shooting at medium and long distances. The rifle is designed to equip anti-terrorist and special units of law enforcement agencies of Russia with high quality weapons.
Interest in acquiring the product GC "Promtehnologii" is also present at the exhibition expressed by representatives of delegations and abroad.
Launched in 2011, production plant for high-precision hunting, sporting and tactical rifles under the brand name is the first ORSIS realized project of the Group companies' Promtehnologii. " Are currently under research to identify other promising areas in the field of modern firearms.
Interesting that they chamber the rifle in 7.62 x 51mm NATO.
This is a Police type weapon for law enforcement agencies, though why they would need 1km plus range rifles is a good question.