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    Mikoyan LMFS

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    George1

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  George1 on Sun May 27, 2012 4:59 am

    GarryB wrote:I also agree with TR-1... these plans are just that... they are plans and have to be flexible.

    That is why they re-examine them... not just to make sure everything is going to plan, or if it isn't then what needs to be done to make it go to plan (ie production of S-400 wasn't happening fast enough so they decided to change the plan to add an extra production plant so they could cope with the requirements), or if the plan was unrealistic then to change the plan.

    Good planning requires flexibility... the longer the term planning the more flexibility it needs.

    For instance in the Navy there is no sense in planning to build 4 new aircraft carriers right now. First of all there is no production capacity for that, and even if there was then those carriers would need lots of support infrastructure including upgraded ports and lots of supply ships and support ships that simply aren't ready yet.

    A simple change in one area will require a check through the entire plan to look at how that effects other programs, like the upgrades of in service vessels etc etc.

    The reason the LMFS was given a low priority and not given funding in the 2020 plans is because they wanted to get the PAK FA ready and into service before they even considered funding another aircraft. There were no guarantees... when the GVP was written that India would be on board, or that things would be relatively smooth... and there are problems with cracking so it hasn't been perfect. There is no rush in Russia for an F-35 like aircraft because the Su-35s and Mig-35s are available if needed and able to be produced and are very competitive and capable aircraft. Delaying the final development of the LMFS means lessons from the F-35 program can be absorbed and adopted which reduces risk.

    Remember the LMFS program is not new and started out with the MFI program as the LFI program. Both became multi role programs... MFS and LFS and have evolved and changed over time, but there have been no complete and radical changes in requirements so existing designs can be modified and adapted. Both Sukhoi and Mig were working on 5th gen programs and have developed 5th gen technology... a lot of which they are putting in their -35s. Sukhoi have the advantage of actually putting theirs in service and having a 5th gen series of prototypes to fully test, but Mig will have supercomputers pounding away the numbers testing all sorts of options and combinations too.

    Russia dont need to replace 4 types of aircrafts but only 1 (MiG-29) with LMFS
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 27, 2012 7:13 am

    The new 5th gen light fighter will actually be replacing Su-27s and Mig-29s.

    It will be a numbers aircraft... there is no way Russia can afford to replace all its Su-27s with Pak fa and Su-35s... at most they will have about 250 PAK FAs and plans are for about 96 Su-35s.

    A new light 5th gen fighter can replace the rest of the Su-27s and all of the Mig-29s.

    Su-35s and new light 5th gen fighters could also be for export and will likely sell rather well as both will have features that make them attractive.

    The Su-35 is a large aircraft with good flight range and large payload and lots of weapon pylons for lots of weapons and pods. It has a large nose with the potential for very large radars and has excellent flight performance. It does not have stealth.

    The new 5th gen fighter will have stealth and be able to pull the same tricks western stealth aircraft can pull, so the combination would be very valuable... a flight of LMFSs, with a flight of Su-35s offer the best of both worlds as the Su-35 can locate enemy targets, including stealth aircraft while the LMFS can sneak around and surprise enemy forces and evade enemy air defence systems, or hit them with ARMs.

    For an export customer the Su-35 and LMFS would compliment each other... especially of the LMFS is a true 5th gen fighter and is not too expensive.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:25 am

    The picture of the LMFS shows canards which are a nono for stealth designs so I hope they redesign that part. Also since its pretty much mandatory in the russian air force for the aircraft to incorporate twin engines I'm pretty sure the final design will look different from the original picture
    I really hope the LMFS will have thrust vectoring.

    Would it be possible for the LMFS to replace the Mig-29K and be the aircraft of the future russian carrier groups?



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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:16 am

    The picture of the LMFS shows canards which are a nono for stealth designs so I hope they redesign that part.

    Why are canards not stealthy?

    The Europeans claim their Eurocanards are at least low observable, yet they have canard foreplanes.

    You might also want to tell the Chinese as their new stealth aircraft appears to have canards too.

    If you can't make canards stealthy, how do they make the main wing stealthy?

    Would it be possible for the LMFS to replace the Mig-29K and be the aircraft of the future russian carrier groups?


    Current plans AFAIK are for the PAK FA to enter RuAF service and then be adapted for use on carriers, but if the decision to go ahead with a 5th gen light fighter it might be considered for naval use.

    With the Sigma system however I suspect that the future for Russian Naval aircraft could be for drones, with the two main types being a radar equipped AWACS type platform and a missile carrier that can use information from the AWACS drone, surface ship radar and satellite based radar to find its targets. The missile carrier drones would operate similarly to a land based trailer full of ready to launch missiles with a datalink connection to the IADS, so threats near the trailer will result in a command from the IADS to launch a missile at the threat. The difference would be that from an aerial drone the missile will be launched at altitude and speed, so it will have better range and performance than surface launched missiles. The added bonus is that the drones wont give away to location of the fleet and can be moved fairly rapidly to meet new threats.

    A third type drone could be a recon drone that is smaller and faster and can be sent out to inspect new contacts without killing them... like aircraft can, and missiles can't.


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    SOC

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:43 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The picture of the LMFS shows canards which are a nono for stealth designs so I hope they redesign that part.

    Why are canards not stealthy?

    That's one of the biggest lines of BS that keeps floating around. Northrop's NATF design used a canard, Lockheed's original JAST design was a canard delta, the J-20 uses canards, the Rafale (while not quite a true LO design) uses canards... If you can make a wing+tail combination LO, you can make a canard+wing combination LO. There are some different considerations and specifics to deal with, but the idea that canards cannot be used on an LO platform is complete BS. You could make a list of such BS arguments that refuse to die. #1, this one. #2, stealth makes you totally invisible. #3, SR-71s stopped flying in certain areas when MiG-31s were operational. The list goes on.

    Firebird

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Firebird on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:14 pm

    Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:14 pm

    Firebird wrote:Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.

    Best we got so far.

    LINK
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    TR1

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  TR1 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:15 pm

    In short, wait 5-7 years for any realistic specifics.

    CaptainPakistan

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  CaptainPakistan on Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:53 pm

    Firebird wrote:Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.
    Why? Because a drawing and fan art exists? Give me a break....

    Firebird

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Firebird on Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:59 pm

    CaptainPakistan wrote:
    Firebird wrote:Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.
    Why? Because a drawing and fan art exists? Give me a break....
    Jog on comedy boy. Isn't your takeaway opening soon?

    I think your brain got taken away before you were born....

    PS Mother Russia is really jealous of you. I mean your elite fighting force has some incredible weaponry.
    Like this...

    http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20120921&t=2&i=655544427&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=580&pl=378&r=CBRE88K139M00
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    Viktor

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:13 pm

    @Austin - you article about new light fighter should have been posted HERE  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  as this is a first official confirmation about its guaranteed future !!!


    Russia to Develop Light-Class Fighter Jet

    “The development of a light-class fighter has been included in the current arms procurement program. It will be created,” said Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, addressing the lower house of parliament."


    Rogozin, who first voiced the idea of developing a second type of a fifth-generation fighter in February 2012, said Wednesday that Russia has always had at least two types of tactical fighters that in general supplemented one another.

    These two lines conclude the story that lasted for over 5 years in a form of gossip  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
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    George1

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:20 pm

    Viktor wrote:@Austin - you article about new light fighter should have been posted HERE  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  as this is a first official confirmation about its guaranteed future !!!


    Russia to Develop Light-Class Fighter Jet

    “The development of a light-class fighter has been included in the current arms procurement program. It will be created,” said Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, addressing the lower house of parliament."


    Rogozin, who first voiced the idea of developing a second type of a fifth-generation fighter in February 2012, said Wednesday that Russia has always had at least two types of tactical fighters that in general supplemented one another.

    These two lines conclude the story that lasted for over 5 years in a form of gossip  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

    and this light fighter will be from Mikoyan?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:42 pm

    George1 wrote:and this light fighter will be from Mikoyan?

    Mikoyan is now part of an UAC company consisting of Sukhoi, Mikoyan Ilyushin, Tupolev, Yakovlev so UAC will develop LMFS most probably based on MIGs light 5th generation plane.

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:51 pm

    great news!!

    A bit late though...

    I suppose Russia will have an exportable 5th generation fighter by 2020-2023 time frame at the most...

    CaptainPakistan

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  CaptainPakistan on Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:34 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:great news!!

    A bit late though...

    I suppose Russia will have an exportable 5th generation fighter by 2020-2023 time frame at the most...

    Doubt it. They need to design it, build it, test it. Etc. In Russia this is a 25 year program. Maybe will be exportable by 2028 if they start tomorrow. We are already almost in 2-14
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:08 am

    Except that the LMFS is a rather old program... junior to the MFI and then MFS programs that led to the PAK FA program.

    It has already had lots of serious work done on it and many of the components on the Mig-35 will likely be part of it including the AESA radar.

    Sukhoi will already be busy with PAK FA including the unmanned version and likely a cat launched naval model too, plus the Su-25SM upgrade and replacement.

    I rather suspect this will be a MiG led programme.


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    Austin

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:58 am

    LMFS purchase is documented in RuAF 2021-2025 program as part of Purchase of Frontline Aircraft

    http://www.aviaport.ru/news/2013/05/14/254804.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:34 am

    Having a cheaper numbers aircraft makes sense... later on as the technology matures it could be replaced with an unmanned aircraft but technology in datalinks and telecontrol need to be bullet proof to put all your eggs in that basket...


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    Viktor

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:12 am

    GarryB wrote:Having a cheaper numbers aircraft makes sense... later on as the technology matures it could be replaced with an unmanned aircraft but technology in datalinks and telecontrol need to be bullet proof to put all your eggs in that basket...

    We saw what happened to American RQ-170 the stealthiest of all stealth  Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:25 am

    Exactly... they forgot drones are supposed to be cheap and expendable.

    No point in building numbers planes that are more expensive than existing aircraft.

    By the time the LFS is ready for flight tests AESA modules should be in mass production in several factories in Russia being produced for aircraft, missiles, ships, and land vehicles, as well as satellites etc. The price per module should mean that multiple arrays will be able to be mounted all round the aircraft facing all directions at once giving 360 degree coverage in both active and passive mode... allowing detection and ECM features to be deployed immediately in any direction... and also to allow over the shoulder missile launches... imagine the aircraft flying along when a target appears behind at 60-80km distance... one option would be to turn 180 degrees and fire a medium range missile, but equally they could continue flying forward on their mission and fire a long range missile (R-37M) and have the missile turn 180 degrees at launch to engage the target while the aircraft accelerates away from the threat.


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    George1

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:41 pm

    Mikhail Pogosyan: UAC is not developing a light fifth-generation fighter
    Russian Aviaton » Monday April 21, 2014 15:01 MSK

    The development of light fifth-generation fighter is not one of the top-priority projects of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Voenno-promishlenniy Courier reports with reference to the president of UAC, Mikhail Pogosyan.

    «I don’t eliminate the possibility of developing a light fifth-generation aircraft, but this project is not included in the roadmap of UAC», - Pogosyan said. He also noted that in the near-term UAC will continue the expansion of MiG-29 fighter’s capabilities and then upgrade it to MiG-35 version.

    The contracts with Russian and Indian Ministries of Defense for delivery of MiG-29K/KUB aircraft make “UAC focus on production of these fighters”, the corporation’s president added.

    Head of UAC also said that a vector of development will be defined after completion of work on MiG-29K/35 Family: the corporation will choose between development of a UAV and a light fifth-generation fighter.

    Speaking of possibilities for development of the light fifth-generation fighter, the president of UAC said that copying of US analogues is no god for many reasons. Soviet and Russian aircraft industry had always taken its own way in accordance with the current military doctrine, he added.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:59 am

    That title is misleading.

    A more accurate title would be:

    Mikhail Pogosyan: UAC is not developing a light fifth-generation fighter right now.

    As explained in the article they are no currently working on a light 5th gen design because they are currently working on improving the MiG-29SMT and also further developing the MiG-35 and of course making MiG-29Ks for India and Russia.

    Once the MiG-35 is in service they will likely then make the decision as to whether they can actually make an affordable but also capable light 5th gen fighter, or if instead they decide to make cheaper unmanned armed aircraft to support heavier more expensive stealth fighters.

    Personally I think they have to be sensible and not try to make a light 5th gen fighter that is as capable as the PAK FA will be or better.

    The focus should be low purchase and operating costs. Reasonable stealth meaning small internal weapons capacity, with the idea that hundreds of light fighters should be able to quickly remove enemy air power from the skies and then revert to a less stealthy range of roles of numbers aircraft with external stores and fuel to extend range and engage large numbers of ground targets or air targets.

    The enemy will either have stealth aircraft which means lots of LMFS would be needed to deal with them in stealth configuration but they will not need to be heavily armed as the enemy wont be able to afford the same number of stealth aircraft as 4th gens.
    If the enemy has lots of 4th gen fighters then lots of LMFS with some clean and stealthy and lots of others flying relatively high with lots of external stores plus of course PAK FA all working together to deal with numbers of enemy fighters and other aircraft types.

    If the enemy is third world then after a few main radars are taken out stealth might not be needed so external heavy payloads can be used to bludgen the enemy quickly.

    Personally I don't see drones cutting it as being stealthy AND cheap AND capable... capable and stealthy is expensive...

    A lot of experience with MiG-35 should get them to a point where they can optimise systems and equipment for the LMFS and make it effective and cheaper.

    If the LMFS isn't 5 times cheaper than PAK FA then there is not point...


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    TR1

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:14 am

    MOD has not even decided if it wants a light fighter, an armed drone, or something else.
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:32 am

    a light stealth fighter is the obvious choice. a drone is just getting ahead of themselves.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:37 pm

    Well, something is in the pipeline and thats for sure  thumbsup 

    RAC MiG boss eyes fifth-generation fighter


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