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    Mikoyan LMFS

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    GarryB
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 22, 2012 9:18 am

    I also agree with TR-1... these plans are just that... they are plans and have to be flexible.

    That is why they re-examine them... not just to make sure everything is going to plan, or if it isn't then what needs to be done to make it go to plan (ie production of S-400 wasn't happening fast enough so they decided to change the plan to add an extra production plant so they could cope with the requirements), or if the plan was unrealistic then to change the plan.

    Good planning requires flexibility... the longer the term planning the more flexibility it needs.

    For instance in the Navy there is no sense in planning to build 4 new aircraft carriers right now. First of all there is no production capacity for that, and even if there was then those carriers would need lots of support infrastructure including upgraded ports and lots of supply ships and support ships that simply aren't ready yet.

    A simple change in one area will require a check through the entire plan to look at how that effects other programs, like the upgrades of in service vessels etc etc.

    The reason the LMFS was given a low priority and not given funding in the 2020 plans is because they wanted to get the PAK FA ready and into service before they even considered funding another aircraft. There were no guarantees... when the GVP was written that India would be on board, or that things would be relatively smooth... and there are problems with cracking so it hasn't been perfect. There is no rush in Russia for an F-35 like aircraft because the Su-35s and Mig-35s are available if needed and able to be produced and are very competitive and capable aircraft. Delaying the final development of the LMFS means lessons from the F-35 program can be absorbed and adopted which reduces risk.

    Remember the LMFS program is not new and started out with the MFI program as the LFI program. Both became multi role programs... MFS and LFS and have evolved and changed over time, but there have been no complete and radical changes in requirements so existing designs can be modified and adapted. Both Sukhoi and Mig were working on 5th gen programs and have developed 5th gen technology... a lot of which they are putting in their -35s. Sukhoi have the advantage of actually putting theirs in service and having a 5th gen series of prototypes to fully test, but Mig will have supercomputers pounding away the numbers testing all sorts of options and combinations too.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  George1 on Sun May 27, 2012 4:59 am

    GarryB wrote:I also agree with TR-1... these plans are just that... they are plans and have to be flexible.

    That is why they re-examine them... not just to make sure everything is going to plan, or if it isn't then what needs to be done to make it go to plan (ie production of S-400 wasn't happening fast enough so they decided to change the plan to add an extra production plant so they could cope with the requirements), or if the plan was unrealistic then to change the plan.

    Good planning requires flexibility... the longer the term planning the more flexibility it needs.

    For instance in the Navy there is no sense in planning to build 4 new aircraft carriers right now. First of all there is no production capacity for that, and even if there was then those carriers would need lots of support infrastructure including upgraded ports and lots of supply ships and support ships that simply aren't ready yet.

    A simple change in one area will require a check through the entire plan to look at how that effects other programs, like the upgrades of in service vessels etc etc.

    The reason the LMFS was given a low priority and not given funding in the 2020 plans is because they wanted to get the PAK FA ready and into service before they even considered funding another aircraft. There were no guarantees... when the GVP was written that India would be on board, or that things would be relatively smooth... and there are problems with cracking so it hasn't been perfect. There is no rush in Russia for an F-35 like aircraft because the Su-35s and Mig-35s are available if needed and able to be produced and are very competitive and capable aircraft. Delaying the final development of the LMFS means lessons from the F-35 program can be absorbed and adopted which reduces risk.

    Remember the LMFS program is not new and started out with the MFI program as the LFI program. Both became multi role programs... MFS and LFS and have evolved and changed over time, but there have been no complete and radical changes in requirements so existing designs can be modified and adapted. Both Sukhoi and Mig were working on 5th gen programs and have developed 5th gen technology... a lot of which they are putting in their -35s. Sukhoi have the advantage of actually putting theirs in service and having a 5th gen series of prototypes to fully test, but Mig will have supercomputers pounding away the numbers testing all sorts of options and combinations too.

    Russia dont need to replace 4 types of aircrafts but only 1 (MiG-29) with LMFS

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 27, 2012 7:13 am

    The new 5th gen light fighter will actually be replacing Su-27s and Mig-29s.

    It will be a numbers aircraft... there is no way Russia can afford to replace all its Su-27s with Pak fa and Su-35s... at most they will have about 250 PAK FAs and plans are for about 96 Su-35s.

    A new light 5th gen fighter can replace the rest of the Su-27s and all of the Mig-29s.

    Su-35s and new light 5th gen fighters could also be for export and will likely sell rather well as both will have features that make them attractive.

    The Su-35 is a large aircraft with good flight range and large payload and lots of weapon pylons for lots of weapons and pods. It has a large nose with the potential for very large radars and has excellent flight performance. It does not have stealth.

    The new 5th gen fighter will have stealth and be able to pull the same tricks western stealth aircraft can pull, so the combination would be very valuable... a flight of LMFSs, with a flight of Su-35s offer the best of both worlds as the Su-35 can locate enemy targets, including stealth aircraft while the LMFS can sneak around and surprise enemy forces and evade enemy air defence systems, or hit them with ARMs.

    For an export customer the Su-35 and LMFS would compliment each other... especially of the LMFS is a true 5th gen fighter and is not too expensive.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:25 am

    The picture of the LMFS shows canards which are a nono for stealth designs so I hope they redesign that part. Also since its pretty much mandatory in the russian air force for the aircraft to incorporate twin engines I'm pretty sure the final design will look different from the original picture
    I really hope the LMFS will have thrust vectoring.

    Would it be possible for the LMFS to replace the Mig-29K and be the aircraft of the future russian carrier groups?




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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:16 am

    The picture of the LMFS shows canards which are a nono for stealth designs so I hope they redesign that part.

    Why are canards not stealthy?

    The Europeans claim their Eurocanards are at least low observable, yet they have canard foreplanes.

    You might also want to tell the Chinese as their new stealth aircraft appears to have canards too.

    If you can't make canards stealthy, how do they make the main wing stealthy?

    Would it be possible for the LMFS to replace the Mig-29K and be the aircraft of the future russian carrier groups?


    Current plans AFAIK are for the PAK FA to enter RuAF service and then be adapted for use on carriers, but if the decision to go ahead with a 5th gen light fighter it might be considered for naval use.

    With the Sigma system however I suspect that the future for Russian Naval aircraft could be for drones, with the two main types being a radar equipped AWACS type platform and a missile carrier that can use information from the AWACS drone, surface ship radar and satellite based radar to find its targets. The missile carrier drones would operate similarly to a land based trailer full of ready to launch missiles with a datalink connection to the IADS, so threats near the trailer will result in a command from the IADS to launch a missile at the threat. The difference would be that from an aerial drone the missile will be launched at altitude and speed, so it will have better range and performance than surface launched missiles. The added bonus is that the drones wont give away to location of the fleet and can be moved fairly rapidly to meet new threats.

    A third type drone could be a recon drone that is smaller and faster and can be sent out to inspect new contacts without killing them... like aircraft can, and missiles can't.


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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:43 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The picture of the LMFS shows canards which are a nono for stealth designs so I hope they redesign that part.

    Why are canards not stealthy?

    That's one of the biggest lines of BS that keeps floating around. Northrop's NATF design used a canard, Lockheed's original JAST design was a canard delta, the J-20 uses canards, the Rafale (while not quite a true LO design) uses canards... If you can make a wing+tail combination LO, you can make a canard+wing combination LO. There are some different considerations and specifics to deal with, but the idea that canards cannot be used on an LO platform is complete BS. You could make a list of such BS arguments that refuse to die. #1, this one. #2, stealth makes you totally invisible. #3, SR-71s stopped flying in certain areas when MiG-31s were operational. The list goes on.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:47 am

    You could make a list of such BS arguments that refuse to die. #1, this one. #2, stealth makes you totally invisible. #3, SR-71s stopped flying in certain areas when MiG-31s were operational. The list goes on.

    I would add that in my experience some actually believe the SR-71 regularly flew over Soviet Airspace with impunity... ie did what U-2s used to do.


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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:07 am

    GarryB wrote:
    You could make a list of such BS arguments that refuse to die. #1, this one. #2, stealth makes you totally invisible. #3, SR-71s stopped flying in certain areas when MiG-31s were operational. The list goes on.

    I would add that in my experience some actually believe the SR-71 regularly flew over Soviet Airspace with impunity... ie did what U-2s used to do.

    The best part is that even the pilots will tell you that it's complete BS! People just aren't willing to comprehend the idea of PARPRO...

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:44 am

    I would add that in my experience some actually believe the SR-71 regularly flew over Soviet Airspace with impunity... ie did what U-2s used to do.


    SR-71 never conducted direct overflights of URSS air space (while, instead, completing several times similar missions over Warsaw Pact's allied nations); that, obviously, don't mean that several attempts was not done ,in particular "staright loop" mission profiles coming from Norway.....with relative interceptions of the possible intruders by part of PVO's MiG-31s .


    In those sample pages (pag 280 and 282-284) from the book "Loocheed Blackbird : Beyond the secret missions" by Paul F Crickmore (a book ,the second edition of which, i suggest to anyone) is present ,with plentiful of details also technicals, an accurate description of SR-71's intercepts by part of PVO 1st Class Pilot Mikhail Myagkiy who had personally completed 14 intercepts of SR-71 with its MiG-31.



    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xwPFC3GtcL8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=why+mig-31+did+not+shoot+down+sr-71&source=web&ots=ghLzsSGBik&sig=WEpZhe3IUN_oC4#v=onepage&q=why%20mig-31%20did%20not%20shoot%20down%20sr-71&f=true


    Good reading.



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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  SOC on Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:25 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    I would add that in my experience some actually believe the SR-71 regularly flew over Soviet Airspace with impunity... ie did what U-2s used to do.


    SR-71 never conducted direct overflights of URSS air space (while, instead, completing several times similar missions over Warsaw Pact's allied nations); that, obviously, don't mean that several attempts was not done ,in particular "staright loop" mission profiles coming from Norway.....with relative interceptions of the possible intruders by part of PVO's MiG-31s .


    In those sample pages (pag 280 and 282-284) from the book "Loocheed Blackbird : Beyond the secret missions" by Paul F Crickmore (a book ,the second edition of which, i suggest to anyone) is present ,with plentiful of details also technicals, an accurate description of SR-71's intercepts by part of PVO 1st Class Pilot Mikhail Myagkiy who had personally completed 14 intercepts of SR-71 with its MiG-31.



    http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xwPFC3GtcL8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=why+mig-31+did+not+shoot+down+sr-71&source=web&ots=ghLzsSGBik&sig=WEpZhe3IUN_oC4#v=onepage&q=why%20mig-31%20did%20not%20shoot%20down%20sr-71&f=true


    Good reading.



    That is a very good book. If you get the latest revision, it includes copies of Myagkiy's logbook entries in one of the appendicies.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:02 pm


    That is a very good book. If you get the latest revision, it includes copies of Myagkiy's logbook entries in one of the appendicies.


    I agree completely SOC Smile

    I have second edition of that book, but it is possible i will try to order latest version.

    Best regards.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:24 pm

    EXCERPTS FROM THE MAGAZINE COMBAT AIRCRAFTS - OCT 2010

    In September 1983, a Korean Air Lines Boeing 747 was shot down by a Sukhoi-15 after the airliner intruded deep into Soviet air space. What remained unknown to the world was the night of the incident had been a particularly tense time for Soviet air defence forces, as the SR-71 was conducting a spy flight in coordination with other American aircraft and a Big Bird spy satellite.

    Following the event, a special-purpose group comprising four MiG-31s under the command of Vladimir Ivlev, was despatched to Sokol Air Base in Sakhalin later that month.

    The group's main task was to combat incursions by the SR-71. With Moscow's authorisation the four crews set up demonstrations sorties with the new aircraft, using their radar to prevent the Blackbird from flying along the Soviet border.

    The crew would fly out on an intercept course to close with the target, and then switch the radar to radiation mode and report to their ground controllers when they had detected the target at around 300-320 km. They would then continue to close with the target, and at 120-150 km target lock-on would be achieved, whereupon the crew would report readiness to attack.

    At this point the SR-71's missile approach warning system would trigger; the crew would find themselves the hunted, and unable to hold their nerve, there was no course of action for them other than to engage afterburner and run for home.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  SOC on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:15 pm

    "What remained unknown to the world was the night of the incident had been a particularly tense time for Soviet air defence forces, as the SR-71 was conducting a spy flight in coordination with other American aircraft and a Big Bird spy satellite."

    Spysat overflight times were always known and predictable. Blackbird flights near the area were relatively common in the 80s as well.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Firebird on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:14 pm

    Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:14 pm

    Firebird wrote:Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.

    Best we got so far.

    LINK

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  TR1 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:15 pm

    In short, wait 5-7 years for any realistic specifics.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  CaptainPakistan on Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:53 pm

    Firebird wrote:Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.
    Why? Because a drawing and fan art exists? Give me a break....

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Firebird on Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:59 pm

    CaptainPakistan wrote:
    Firebird wrote:Does anyone know (without being sacked from work/arrested Very Happy) what the expected timeframes are for the LMFS? And what sort of numbers its likely to be produced in domestically and for export.

    Thats a lot of planes in development. Pak Fa, LMFS, the Su25 replacement, Mig31 replacement and Pak Da(maybe 2 variants!). I wonder how smoothly development will go. And where things will stand in 2020/ 2025.
    Why? Because a drawing and fan art exists? Give me a break....
    Jog on comedy boy. Isn't your takeaway opening soon?

    I think your brain got taken away before you were born....

    PS Mother Russia is really jealous of you. I mean your elite fighting force has some incredible weaponry.
    Like this...

    http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20120921&t=2&i=655544427&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=580&pl=378&r=CBRE88K139M00

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  CaptainPakistan on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:18 pm

    I heard they are building the new russian navy with glass bottom boats, so that it can see the old Russian navy.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:17 am

    Spysat overflight times were always known and predictable. Blackbird flights near the area were relatively common in the 80s as well.
    Accidental incursions or near incursions by aircraft with designations starting with RB would often be coordinated with such overflights and missions... there is no point in tripping off the alarm if you don't have the assets in place to record who did what and when.

    The Korean pilots of civilian aircraft also had a history trying to evade Russian air defence forces even when accidently straying into Russian air space.

    This tended to make them appear to be guilty of something.

    I heard they are building the new russian navy with glass bottom boats, so that it can see the old Russian navy.
    Don't know whether you are ignorant or just an Ahole now... keep it up and it wont matter.


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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:13 pm

    @Austin - you article about new light fighter should have been posted HERE  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  as this is a first official confirmation about its guaranteed future !!!


    Russia to Develop Light-Class Fighter Jet

    “The development of a light-class fighter has been included in the current arms procurement program. It will be created,” said Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, addressing the lower house of parliament."


    Rogozin, who first voiced the idea of developing a second type of a fifth-generation fighter in February 2012, said Wednesday that Russia has always had at least two types of tactical fighters that in general supplemented one another.

    These two lines conclude the story that lasted for over 5 years in a form of gossip  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:20 pm

    Viktor wrote:@Austin - you article about new light fighter should have been posted HERE  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  as this is a first official confirmation about its guaranteed future !!!


    Russia to Develop Light-Class Fighter Jet

    “The development of a light-class fighter has been included in the current arms procurement program. It will be created,” said Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, addressing the lower house of parliament."


    Rogozin, who first voiced the idea of developing a second type of a fifth-generation fighter in February 2012, said Wednesday that Russia has always had at least two types of tactical fighters that in general supplemented one another.

    These two lines conclude the story that lasted for over 5 years in a form of gossip  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

    and this light fighter will be from Mikoyan?

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Viktor on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:42 pm

    George1 wrote:and this light fighter will be from Mikoyan?

    Mikoyan is now part of an UAC company consisting of Sukhoi, Mikoyan Ilyushin, Tupolev, Yakovlev so UAC will develop LMFS most probably based on MIGs light 5th generation plane.

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:51 pm

    great news!!

    A bit late though...

    I suppose Russia will have an exportable 5th generation fighter by 2020-2023 time frame at the most...

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  CaptainPakistan on Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:34 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:great news!!

    A bit late though...

    I suppose Russia will have an exportable 5th generation fighter by 2020-2023 time frame at the most...

    Doubt it. They need to design it, build it, test it. Etc. In Russia this is a 25 year program. Maybe will be exportable by 2028 if they start tomorrow. We are already almost in 2-14

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