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    Mikoyan LMFS

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:37 pm

    Let us face it, as cost of goods are going up and Russia has been forced to tighten its belt regarding funding on nearly anything, a 5th gen lightweight fighter is going to become quite important.  Most wars are either a fight of attrition or would end in hours if gone nuclear.  So having a jet that is cheap to field while being able to hold its own quite well, is important.

    But why should it be not only expensive but takes long to come out?  Already KRET has the technologies for a fifth gen like fighter.  They could effectively use what they learned from MiG-35 so far, improve its subsystems, and come up with a newer airframe.  To reduce costs, they could use shaping a lot more effectively than relying on RAM material for stealth as RAM is quite expensive, while shaping wouldn't be (they could use computers to help come up with the design.  Of course, the set basis for it could be MiG-29 shape.

    But a jet that would cost roughly $30 - $50M per unit would be ideal, as it would be significantly cheaper than PAK FA, while being reasonable in terms of price, could still be capable.  Theoretically, Su-34's are listed as cheaper than Su-35's and are very capable aircrafts, hence the large purchase for them (well, and their needs).

    GJ Flanker wrote:Russia needs new combat aircraft, the more the better. The new situation dictates the dynamics of development of brand new Russian gear. A decision to modernize all T-90A to T-90M standard is a sign ain that direction. Mikoyan must come with something brand new. Sukhoi has already many delivery projects. I don't think a new MiG would be inferior comparing with T-50 and if we also get a MiG-41 than the picture will be complete.

    It is possible that this new MiG will top anything else out there in the world, even T-50 and F-22A. By logic, it will be a much younger project than all others. New solutions would be built in from the very start, like GaN AESA, X-core 16 nm processors and other things.  

    I think the main aim is to bring Mikoyan to Sukhoi revenue level.

    Problem with low nanometer processors are that their shieldings for against radiation. Most processors used for military purposes are usually around 180 - 90nm processing with specialized shieldings. Very expensive. Like F-22's and Su-30MKI's use the Intel i960x processor which is quite old in terms of regular computer use, but are quite ideal for radar technology. The ones ideal for Russia will be the Elbrus 2C+ or 2SM which are localized production and 90nm with 6 physical cores of two of them being the Elbrus E2K core and 4 being of Elvees DSP cores.

    Also, I know very little currently about the modules for radar technology coming out from Russia but my understanding is that NPP Istok is the one who produces the current T/R Modules for both KRET and Tikhomirov NPP. I read that back in 2009 (?) they were working on GaN modules but heard nothing more. They are the makers of the current T/R modules of GaAS in Russia and very odd reports here and there of its performances. Some claim they operate in the 10W field, and others say 5W field with MiG-35's having real trouble powering them, something to 3 - 3.5W and thus gives apparent poor performance. Rumor for same modules used for the N036 radar for PAK FA and there is total power being sent to the radar is around 10 - 15KW and gives roughly rumored or theoretical 400km detection range of the Irbis E, which requires similar amount of power.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:50 pm

    The focus will be to keep costs low... don't try to make it a super plane... fit mature and capable systems... don't try to make it everything to everyone like the F-35s.


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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:The focus will be to keep costs low... don't try to make it a super plane... fit mature and capable systems... don't try to make it everything to everyone like the F-35s.

    Well what wonders me is - why MiG´s representative explicitly mentioned MiG-35. If this is 35 frame then why not MiG-35M? Or this is going to frame remake?


    BTW mentioning F-35 actually some solutions were borrowed fomr Yak-141 which IMHO should be resurrected for navy.

    near the end of video about F-35. I am not sure how much this is true and how much constructors´ perception.

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:03 pm

    When they say they will use the MiG-35 as the basis, I imagine it will be mostly of its subsystems and possibly engines.  Modified RD-33 engines could very well do the job just fine.

    Chances are, it will be something much like MiG-35 but just airframe changes and powersupply.  Let us not forget, that the MiG-29's suffer from lower detection/engagement ranges (noticed this on both its ESA and AESA radars) that seems to be derived from power supply issues.  If they can fix this, they could very well have a powerful aircraft in a small package.  Using current technologies will just speed up development as well as reducing costs.

    At this point, with Mikoyans poor number of orders, they will need to come up with something soon or they will fall behind greatly and even possibly lose itself entirely (although, they could use the extra space at sokol plant to produce more sukhoi parts but that is besides the point). So they will need to come up with something that will be either both export oriented or domestic demand, and an aircraft that is both competitive and cheap. Russia will need this in order to help itself develop a capable airforce as now the budgets have been changing.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:05 am

    I suspect what they mean by being based on the MiG-35 is that it will use the same basic layout... ie twin fins and two engines etc etc.

    Likely slightly wider engine separation, and an internal weapon bay fitted between the engines... perhaps even something radical like wingtip pods with combination targetting pods and jamming pods fitted, perhaps with a wing tip WVR missile position mounted internally...


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    George1

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:25 pm



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    Militarov

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:15 am

    Werent there mentions that future light multirole fighter will be single engined? If its based on Mig35 technology and if they follow ideas that LMFS had it will be twin engined then.
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:04 pm

    Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

    ""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
    In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





    Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy Smile

    Austin

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Austin on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:25 pm

    Not going to happen unless state funded , Mig is just toying with the idea with its own fund
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:04 pm

    Austin wrote:Not going to happen unless state funded , Mig is just toying with the idea with its own fund

    Not exactly. Su-35S was a total knaapo funded project. Mikoyan could pull it off by using some already old blueprints and equipment they are working with for MiG-35

    As well, we dont really know if the government isnt funding it or not.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:01 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

    ""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
    In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





    Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy Smile

    Hmm, seems like its not state funded, what i did hear about state funded project is that they wanted to base it on MiG35.... from where da hell now comes this 1.44 thing. And you can see "In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company.", ofc its not, there is simply not enough money... What will happen, is that they will use MiG35 base, and use PAK FA solutions to make it stealthier, probably make smaller version of its radar suite with main radar having 1000 modues and thats about it. They will make it affordable much as possible and base it on existing solution, just my opinion tho.
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:26 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44

    ""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
    In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."


    Hmm, seems like its not state funded, what i did hear about state funded project is that they wanted to base it on MiG35.... from where da hell now comes this 1.44 thing. And you can see "In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company.", ofc its not, there is simply not enough money... What will happen, is that they will use MiG35 base, and use PAK FA solutions to make it stealthier, probably make smaller version of its radar suite with main radar having 1000 modues and thats about it. They will make it affordable much as possible and base it on existing solution, just my opinion tho.

    In press article was mentioned that no plans was earlier. Plans change, in the meantime mybe there was funds reshuffling concentrically (?)

    a) MiG 1.44 pops up on Maks 2015
    b) No more info about Skat heavy droves but pops up info about Yak derived ones

    The think that puzzles me is they said light but MiG 1.44 is in the same class size/wight as PAK-FA. SO light one based on Mig 1.44 and maybe again they also will use MiG 1.44 basis for new interceptor ? Max speed was something like 3,200 km/h





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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:51 pm

    I stand by my statement. If Mikoyan wasnt working on one or developing one or whatever, they wouldnt have mentioned it multiple of times. That said, the move towards using MiG 1.44 as the basis of the new jet is a good idea, and will save a lot of money when developing it. Add in, using the technologies learned and learning for MiG-35, will definately help. If they can make a fifth gen fighter at the price point of an Su-35S, they could very well obtain many orders, and would be ideal for Russia.

    Like I said, Su-35S was knaapo self fubded endevour. After recent orders and such for MiG-29K, M's and upgrades, they more than likely earned enough money to at least start this program. They may see the potential orders for Su-35S as an example.
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  medo on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:53 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

    ""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
    In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





    Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy Smile

    Most probably they will develop MiG-31 replacement based on MiG-1-44.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:42 pm

    medo wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

    ""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
    In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





    Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy Smile

    Most probably they will develop MiG-31 replacement based on MiG-1-44.

    Interceptor on 1.44 base is plausible to happen imo.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:46 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44

    ""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
    In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."


    Hmm, seems like its not state funded, what i did hear about state funded project is that they wanted to base it on MiG35.... from where da hell now comes this 1.44 thing. And you can see "In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company.", ofc its not, there is simply not enough money... What will happen, is that they will use MiG35 base, and use PAK FA solutions to make it stealthier, probably make smaller version of its radar suite with main radar having 1000 modues and thats about it. They will make it affordable much as possible and base it on existing solution, just my opinion tho.

    In press article was mentioned that no plans was earlier. Plans change, in the meantime mybe there was funds reshuffling concentrically (?)  

    a) MiG 1.44 pops up on Maks 2015
    b) No more info about Skat heavy droves but  pops up info about Yak derived ones

    The think that puzzles me is they said light but MiG 1.44 is in the same class size/wight as PAK-FA. SO light one based on Mig 1.44 and maybe again they also will use MiG 1.44 basis for new interceptor ? Max speed was something like 3,200 km/h



    Well what they ment is that they will use solutions from 1.44, its not mandatory to keep same size. Well VM-T Atlant was there too, but noone is expecting Russians to revive that project Very Happy

    Yak derived drones are around in talks since late 90s, i remember reading about it in 2000. or so in local Aviation magazine, so it doesnt mean much. Skat seems to have been going "underground" since it was taken as project from MiG, doesnt have to mean its dead.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:01 pm

    Militarov wrote: Well what they ment is that they will use solutions from 1.44, its not mandatory to keep same size. Well VM-T Atlant was there too, but noone is expecting Russians to revive that project Very Happy

    Yak derived drones are around in talks since late 90s, i remember reading about it in 2000. or so in local Aviation magazine, so it doesnt mean much. Skat seems to have been going "underground" since it was taken as project from MiG, doesnt have to mean its dead.

    No Atlant? no Sh!t mate ! Razz

    Yup but whether they use MiG 1.44 solutions on both lightweight and cheaper one (theme T-50) aandd supa dupa interceptor? I hope they do, but we´ll need to be patient Smile

    As for Yak drones -IMHO very good way to decrease unit costs for Yak . All based on one frame and technologies. Unlike MiG even assembly line can be partially used. SO light multirole (export mianly) , trainer and drone.

    Only Yak-141 is missing Razz
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:10 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote: Well what they ment is that they will use solutions from 1.44, its not mandatory to keep same size. Well VM-T Atlant was there too, but noone is expecting Russians to revive that project Very Happy

    Yak derived drones are around in talks since late 90s, i remember reading about it in 2000. or so in local Aviation magazine, so it doesnt mean much. Skat seems to have been going "underground" since it was taken as project from MiG, doesnt have to mean its dead.

    No Atlant? no Sh!t mate ! Razz

    Yup but whether they use MiG 1.44 solutions on both lightweight and cheaper one (theme T-50) aandd supa dupa interceptor? I hope they do, but we´ll need to be patient Smile

    As for Yak drones -IMHO very good way to decrease unit costs for Yak . All based on one frame and technologies. Unlike MiG even assembly line can be partially used. SO light multirole (export mianly) , trainer and drone.

    Only Yak-141 is missing Razz



    Directly from the site of Yakovlev regarding Yak130 platform.

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    Flanky

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Flanky on Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:26 pm

    People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:25 pm

    Flanky wrote:People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.

    Russia badly lacks light single engined fighter they didnt have one basically since MiG21, cheap single engined fighters are needed for air patrols, training, building pilot hours in air etc, especially great solution if they are unified with bigger twin engine platform and built on same core (radar, engine, controls layout, common parts...). Something of a Tejas class lets say, to cost 20-25mil USD so its available in quantities.
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:00 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Flanky wrote:People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.

    Russia badly lacks light single engined fighter they didnt have one basically since MiG21, cheap single engined fighters are needed for air patrols, training, building pilot hours in air etc, especially great solution if they are unified with bigger twin engine platform and built on same core (radar, engine, controls layout, common parts...). Something of a Tejas class lets say, to cost 20-25mil USD so its available in quantities.

    I am always expecting a cheap single jet engine fighter would be ideal for Russia. But it appears that Russia has very little love for them and would rather spend a bit more for a dual engined aircraft. They had singe jet engine aircrafts in service after MiG-21 and that was MiG-23 and 27 which both were also retired same time (roughly). I imagine this LMFS if ever made, will also be dual engine. Would have been cool if Russia did ever decided to actually develop the MiG-33 (fabled I know) which ended up as the JF-17.
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:07 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Flanky wrote:People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.

    Russia badly lacks light single engined fighter they didnt have one basically since MiG21, cheap single engined fighters are needed for air patrols, training, building pilot hours in air etc, especially great solution if they are unified with bigger twin engine platform and built on same core (radar, engine, controls layout, common parts...). Something of a Tejas class lets say, to cost 20-25mil USD so its available in quantities.

    I am always expecting a cheap single jet engine fighter would be ideal for Russia.  But it appears that Russia has very little love for them and would rather spend a bit more for a dual engined aircraft.  They had singe jet engine aircrafts in service after MiG-21 and that was MiG-23 and 27 which both were also retired same time (roughly).  I imagine this LMFS if ever made, will also be dual engine.  Would have been cool if Russia did ever decided to actually develop the MiG-33 (fabled I know) which ended up as the JF-17.

    Legend says Russians stopped making single engined fighters coz of their bad experience with MiG21 crashes due to engine failures, but hey, engines improved since then i dont see AL-31F M2 for an example being unreliable etc, making some lighter multirole fighter with such engine would be ideal imo, abit bigger than JF-17 or modern RD33 engine anyways to be in JF17 class doesnt really matter. And yeah i am afraid that future LMFS shall be twin engined most likely it seems.
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:20 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Flanky wrote:People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.

    Russia badly lacks light single engined fighter they didnt have one basically since MiG21, cheap single engined fighters are needed for air patrols, training, building pilot hours in air etc, especially great solution if they are unified with bigger twin engine platform and built on same core (radar, engine, controls layout, common parts...). Something of a Tejas class lets say, to cost 20-25mil USD so its available in quantities.

    I am always expecting a cheap single jet engine fighter would be ideal for Russia.  But it appears that Russia has very little love for them and would rather spend a bit more for a dual engined aircraft.  They had singe jet engine aircrafts in service after MiG-21 and that was MiG-23 and 27 which both were also retired same time (roughly).  I imagine this LMFS if ever made, will also be dual engine.  Would have been cool if Russia did ever decided to actually develop the MiG-33 (fabled I know) which ended up as the JF-17.

    Legend says Russians stopped making single engined fighters coz of their bad experience with MiG21 crashes due to engine failures, but hey, engines improved since then i dont see AL-31F M2 for an example being unreliable etc, making some lighter multirole fighter with such engine would be ideal imo, abit bigger than JF-17 or modern RD33 engine anyways to be in JF17 class doesnt really matter. And yeah i am afraid that future LMFS shall be twin engined most likely it seems.

    Well apparently Pakistan and China both praised the RD-93 engines used on the JF-17. I also would prefer to see a single engine aircraft as a single jet engine will greatly reduce overall costs. But a major problem I am seeing with smaller aircraft of Russian design, and it is evident on MiG-29/35's, is the powersupply/generator used to power onboard electronics. I had an argument a while back with an Egyptian on this forums (whom I regret being aggressive towards as he was actually a really good guy), that was saying that the Zhuk-A radars are quite weak. Issue was that the radar used on the Zhuk-A as an example had a detection range of roughly 160km for 3m^2 targets. After doing an investigation, the apparent GaAS modules used were rated at most 5W each (these modules are from Istok. But updated info I found was roughly upwards to 10w each and while the competition from Tikhomirov NIIP apparently has 15W or higher GaAS and working on 30W GaN modules), and that the performance should be around 250km for 3m^2 targets and that the main issue is that the modules are roughly only operating at 3W max and not at their intended max wattage (thus producing reduced performance). And so there are two theories behind it: either it has issues with proper cooling thus the modules have to be reduced in the amount of power sent to the modules so it does not overheat causing damages, or it is due to a lack of power being drawn, thus generator/psu issues. How I figured it was a PSU issue is that I figure (just guessing really as I didn't think that Tikhomirov made any modules, and still not entirely sure it is them that is making it or Istok is really the only one making the modules) that both N036 radar used for PAK FA and Zhuk-A were both using same T/R modules and that N036 using 1500 t/r modules was indeed performing in its respective performance rating (400km for fighter sized targets) compared to what the Zhuk-A's intended range of 250km when only operating at 160km with roughly close to 1000 t/r modules. And thus I figure that the N036 was running at its full capacity in order to see such targets from a distance all due to its powersupply being able to produce upwards to 15KW of power, which is a huge amounts (Su-35S for example produces 20KW).

    If I am correct on my assumptions, then the big challenge for Mikoyan is producing generator/psu and cooling system for the aesa modules. Since phazotron (whom makes the Zhuk-A) is owned by KRET (a subsiduary of Rostec), then the future holds using Photon's for the T/R modules rather than simply electron flow. And that there will be massive performance increases. But one thing to make certain of its true performance, will have to be what I presume is the main problems facing MiG-35.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:43 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Flanky wrote:People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.

    Russia badly lacks light single engined fighter they didnt have one basically since MiG21, cheap single engined fighters are needed for air patrols, training, building pilot hours in air etc, especially great solution if they are unified with bigger twin engine platform and built on same core (radar, engine, controls layout, common parts...). Something of a Tejas class lets say, to cost 20-25mil USD so its available in quantities.

    I am always expecting a cheap single jet engine fighter would be ideal for Russia.  But it appears that Russia has very little love for them and would rather spend a bit more for a dual engined aircraft.  They had singe jet engine aircrafts in service after MiG-21 and that was MiG-23 and 27 which both were also retired same time (roughly).  I imagine this LMFS if ever made, will also be dual engine.  Would have been cool if Russia did ever decided to actually develop the MiG-33 (fabled I know) which ended up as the JF-17.

    Legend says Russians stopped making single engined fighters coz of their bad experience with MiG21 crashes due to engine failures, but hey, engines improved since then i dont see AL-31F M2 for an example being unreliable etc, making some lighter multirole fighter with such engine would be ideal imo, abit bigger than JF-17 or modern RD33 engine anyways to be in JF17 class doesnt really matter. And yeah i am afraid that future LMFS shall be twin engined most likely it seems.

    Well apparently Pakistan and China both praised the RD-93 engines used on the JF-17.  I also would prefer to see a single engine aircraft as a single jet engine will greatly reduce overall costs.  But a major problem I am seeing with smaller aircraft of Russian design, and it is evident on MiG-29/35's, is the powersupply/generator used to power onboard electronics.  I had an argument a while back with an Egyptian on this forums (whom I regret being aggressive towards as he was actually a really good guy), that was saying that the Zhuk-A radars are quite weak.  Issue was that the radar used on the Zhuk-A as an example had a detection range of roughly 160km for 3m^2 targets.  After doing an investigation, the apparent GaAS modules used were rated at most 5W each (these modules are from Istok.  But updated info I found was roughly upwards to 10w each and while the competition from Tikhomirov NIIP apparently has 15W or higher GaAS and working on 30W GaN modules), and that the performance should be around 250km for 3m^2 targets and that the main issue is that the modules are roughly only operating at 3W max and not at their intended max wattage (thus producing reduced performance).  And so there are two theories behind it: either it has issues with proper cooling thus the modules have to be reduced in the amount of power sent to the modules so it does not overheat causing damages, or it is due to a lack of power being drawn, thus generator/psu issues.  How I figured it was a PSU issue is that I figure (just guessing really as I didn't think that Tikhomirov made any modules, and still not entirely sure it is them that is making it or Istok is really the only one making the modules) that both N036 radar used for PAK FA and Zhuk-A were both using same T/R modules and that N036 using 1500 t/r modules was indeed performing in its respective performance rating (400km for fighter sized targets) compared to what the Zhuk-A's intended range of 250km when only operating at 160km with roughly close to 1000 t/r modules.  And thus I figure that the N036 was running at its full capacity in order to see such targets from a distance all due to its powersupply being able to produce upwards to 15KW of power, which is a huge amounts (Su-35S for example produces 20KW).

    If I am correct on my assumptions, then the big challenge for Mikoyan is producing generator/psu and cooling system for the aesa modules.  Since phazotron (whom makes the Zhuk-A) is owned by KRET (a subsiduary of Rostec), then the future holds using Photon's for the T/R modules rather than simply electron flow.  And that there will be massive performance increases.  But one thing to make certain of its true performance, will have to be what I presume is the main problems facing MiG-35.

    Yeah i have been reading about whole AESA developing in Russia mess myself but at the end of the day i dont think powering it up should be much of an issue, if Chinese can power up their J10B/JF17 radars no question about Russians being able to. Power consumption incr. with AESA with 1000+ modules surely can be troubling but they, there are solutions i suppose in better/newer electricity generators, or on other side, reduce amount of modules, after all goal would be cheap multirole fighter, no need for 1500+ modules.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:14 am

    The issue of one engine or two is not that simple.

    Having two engines means each engine does not need to be as powerful so you can use cheaper less powerful engines in a design.

    there are plenty of pluses and minuses but ironically with a stealth fighter that needs a large internal weapons bay actually having two widely separated engines has two very real and very important advantages... the first and most obvious is the space between can be used as a weapon bay for internal weapons. the second less obvious is that widely separated engines allows differential thrust vectoring of the engines... is one nozzle up and one down allows high roll rates rapidly, whereas a single engine means little to no roll control in the flight envelope where conventional control surfaces are in super stall.

    Modern modular design means modern aircraft should be cheaper and simpler to maintain and operate, with the MiG-35 reportedly being 40% cheaper to operate than the MiG-29.

    Another disadvantage of two engines is larger frontal area leading to higher drag but that would be compensated by internal weapons carriage and being able to carry more internal fuel and systems.

    Most aircraft have a top power rating and a cruise power rating, but twin engines generally allows higher top thrust rating and does not double the fuel consumption.

    Fuel consumption is calculated by the number of grammes of fuel needed to produce x amount of thrust... whether it is one engine producing it or two.

    this means that if the engine fuel consumption rates are the same then two engines will use the same amount of fuel for the same amount of thrust.

    The main difference is that the total thrust of two engines is normally higher than the thrust of the single engine.

    A good example would be the RD-33 engines of the MiG-29 and the alternative single engine of the period.. the AL-31 of the Su-27.

    designing the MiG to have one 12.5 ton thrust engine would have made it smaller and rather less powerful, while using two 8 ton thrust engines increases the frontal area but also allows an extra 1/3rd of power at top power setting.

    The difference in performance is that in cruise flight both single and twin engine aircraft will be flying at about 3 tons thrust, but the single engined aircraft will be running at 3 tons and the twin engine will be running at 1.5 tons thrust per engine... the real difference will be when acceleration and energy recovery are important because the 16 tons of thrust of the twin engine model will allow higher top speed and better acceleration at the cost of higher fuel consumption.

    Regarding power take off, the fact that the old power converters that took power from the engine to power on board systems including pod mounted jammers and large AESA arrays were not designed for the job needed today... two more powerful engines would allow more power to be generated when needed.


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