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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:23 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:So besides Su-35 engines, what else is being changed?

    Also, is it new order for new planes or modernization of current?  There is still to be more orders anyway.
    I thought they would get at least also the irbis-E radar of the su-35 and that they would unify the avionics and.the sensors between the 2 models (at least for new built Su-30SMD, no need to spend money replace the avionics that is quite modern anyway in already build Su-30SM).

    Btw, do the Russian Su-30SM retain french and israeli.components present in the indian Su-30MKI?

    The only thing was the HUD initially was French. No Israeli tech. After sanctions all new ones use Russian HUD
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:30 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    The only thing was the HUD initially was French. No Israeli tech.  After sanctions all new ones use Russian HUD
    Ah yeah, right.
    This article from last year mention that the MFD and the HUD were initially from the french company thales, and the plan was to substitute them with either the components used in the su-35 or in the Su-57.

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-09-15/russia-order-improved-su-30-flankers

    Btw, would it be worth to put the Al-41F1S also in the next batch of Su-34, to unify the production?
    medo
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:40 pm

    Regarding radar, it is difficult to say. Upgraded Su-30SM will get more capable radar with longer range. For now it is not known, if it will be deeply upgraded Bars-R or they will instrall Irbis in it. More powerful AL-41 engines will give enough power for Irbis. I hope they will instal Irbis in it as it is well proven radar and already in production for Su-35 and with that no need for additional tests. I doubt, that deeply modernized Bars-R will be better than Irbis.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:10 am

    A new contract is planned for Su-30SM fighters with AL-41F-1S engines

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3726885.html
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:22 pm

    The first modernized Su-30SM1 fighters will be transferred to the troops as early as next year

    The Ministry of Defense has already ordered the first batch of modernized multifunctional Su-30SM1 fighters from manufacturers, sources in the military department told Izvestia. The finalization of the aircraft was carried out taking into account the results of the first years of its operation and the experience gained during the operation in Syria. “Super Dry” received new engines and radars, which will make it more maneuverable and effective in battle. The first VKS machines will be received before the end of next year, and already in 2021, mass deliveries will begin. Over time, all aircraft of the Su-30SM series will be brought to the SM1 standard.

    The first two Su-30SM1, which will arrive in the troops, are planned to be used for testing and training pilots, sources of Izvestia specified. Already in 2021, one of the VKS squadrons will switch to the latest fighters.

    Another innovation is a powerful radar station with a phased antenna array H035 "Irbis". It is considered the most powerful airborne radar in the world and is capable of detecting an enemy at a distance of over 100 km.

    - The upgraded aircraft has increased cruising speed, less fuel consumption, increased flight time. But it’s much more important that now the aircraft is unified with the Su-35 and this makes their repair easier and cheaper, ”military expert Anton Lavrov told Izvestia. - And the new radar will make the Su-30SM1 more effective in any combat conditions. It depends on the radar all the characteristics of the aircraft as an air fighter.

    During the modernization, the aircraft also received new ammunition - in particular, now they can carry on board the KAB-250 adjustable bombs, as well as X-59MK2 air-to-surface missiles.

    https://iz.ru/905526/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko/povedenie-s-motorom-super-sukhie-smogut-letat-kak-vertolety
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:35 am


    So both AL-41F-1S engine and Snow Leopard radar from Su-35. And they will be retrofitting entire fleet over time.

    Nice, looks like​ "Su-30X" is closer than we thought thumbsup


    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:40 am

    It's more like a Su-35D than a Su-30. They also need to use same materials and why not Su-57's paint for reducing rcs.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:42 pm

    Isos wrote:It's more like a Su-35D than a Su-30. They also need to use same materials and why not Su-57's paint for reducing rcs.
    yeah, but they keep the airframe of the su-30sm built in irkusk (based on the su-30 MKI) with the canards, instead of the su-30M2 (based on the su-30MKK) that was built in konsomoslk on amur (the su-35 is also built in konsomolsk on amur).
    In addition, they can uniform the upgrade with the work for the indian su30mki
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    Post  Isos on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:10 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Isos wrote:It's more like a Su-35D than a Su-30. They also need to use same materials and why not Su-57's paint for reducing rcs.
    yeah, but they keep the airframe of the su-30sm built in irkusk (based on the su-30 MKI) with the canards, instead of the su-30M2 (based on the su-30MKK) that was built in konsomoslk on amur (the su-35 is also built in konsomolsk on amur).
    In addition, they can uniform the upgrade with the work for the indian su30mki

    Total unification should be made to produce a fully su-35D instead of su-30. Sukhoi should decide what the plants will build not let them creates tens of different variants and increase the number of variants in RuAF thus increasing costs. That would also increase the building time as two plants build the same fighter and order the same parts to sub-contractors ...

    Their decisions suck. Su-35 is cheaper, better and more advanced than su-30. They should have decided long time ago to stop su-30 and go with a biplace su-35. And even now they stick with their su-30 while they mastered su35 production.

    Indians wants AESA radar for their super sukhoi upgrade and I think they are waiting the end of development of the  fga-35 for the mig 35 to ask russians to scale it up for their sukhoi. If russians don't hurry up developing those aesa, indians may very likely ask israeli for upgrades andreplace on the long term sukhoi by europeans and the new 5th gen fighter from dassault is coming very fast while india has still not bought any 5th generation fighter.
    medo
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    Post  medo on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:10 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Isos wrote:It's more like a Su-35D than a Su-30. They also need to use same materials and why not Su-57's paint for reducing rcs.
    yeah, but they keep the airframe of the su-30sm built in irkusk (based on the su-30 MKI) with the canards, instead of the su-30M2 (based on the su-30MKK) that was built in konsomoslk on amur (the su-35 is also built in konsomolsk on amur).
    In addition, they can uniform the upgrade with the work for the indian su30mki

    Su-30M2 is no more in production. I think this production line is now changed for Su-57. Su-30SM is still in production in Irkut and to unify it with Su-35 is good idea. Su-390SM will serve as twin seater for SU-35 and SU-57 and they will arm additional regiment of fighter bombers. With new more powerful engines and radar Irbis, it will be still excellent fighter and most probably armed with new R-77M missiles as long range missiles. Su-30SM1 will be still better in bombing missions and as command post to coordinate the group than Su-35 or Su-57 because of WSO in back seat. I hope they will be armed with new stealth Kh-59MK2 and Kh-50 cruise missiles. Specially stealth Kh-50 cruise missiles with range of 1.500 km will give to it real stand off capabilities in strikes against very important targets.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:28 pm

    I know that the su-30m2 is not anymore in production. I believe the last batch they ordered was only to keep the factory loaded until they could start with normal production rate of su-35 (and it could be used to train new pilots for the su-35 (or su-27sm3, having an intermediate step between the yak-130 and the su-35).

    What I meant is that yes, the new su-30 SM1 (or SMD?) will act as twin seater for the su-35, but it will maintain a different airframe (also having canards, while the su-35 has not).

    I believe that eventually they will also do a twin seater version of the su-57 (su-60?, su-57M2?), the Indians already expressed their interest for it.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:22 am

    I am not sure that the Russians want a two seater Su-57... they talk about it already being a two seater where a virtual AI system supports the pilot in controlling the aircraft and processing information and helping him fight.

    Unifying the design of the Su-30 with the Su-35 should make the former a bit cheaper and also the latter because the spare parts pool can be unified and bought in much larger numbers. It also means maintenance and support of both aircraft will be simpler and the performance of the two seater should be improved with more powerful engines and radar.

    With the same radar I would expect the weapon range of the Su-30 would be expanded to match the Su-35 which is pretty much getting all the Su-57 weapon options and a few that it can't carry...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:49 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:...I believe that eventually they will also do a twin seater version of the su-57 (su-60?, su-57M2?), the Indians already expressed their interest for it.

    Only reason Indians asked for twin seater was because they wanted tactical nuclear bombers (also why they had such a hard-on for stealth at the detriment of everything else).

    There is no reason for second crewman on Su-57, computer does everything. There is barely reason for first one for the most part.


    Also, Su-35 is getting the bench the moment Su-57 starts getting delivered in numbers, it was just the placeholder.

    Su-30 and Su-57 are future setup.


    medo
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    Post  medo on Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:10 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I know that the su-30m2 is not anymore in production. I believe the last batch they ordered was only to keep the factory loaded until they could start with normal production rate of su-35 (and it could be used to train new pilots  for the su-35 (or su-27sm3, having an intermediate step between the yak-130 and the su-35).

    What I meant is that yes, the new su-30 SM1 (or SMD?) will act as twin seater for the su-35, but it will maintain a different airframe (also having canards, while the su-35 has not).

    I believe that eventually they will also do a twin seater version of the su-57 (su-60?, su-57M2?), the Indians already expressed their interest for it.

    No, RuAF order 20 Su-30M2 to have trainers for Su-27SM/SM3 fighters. Su-30SM was always meant to be a trainer for Su-35, because Su-30M2 was technologicaly for whole generation behind Su-35. It is not true, that Russia order Su-30M2 to keep production line loaded, baceasue the last planes produced were Su-30MK2 for Vietnam, not for RuAF.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:57 am

    I really don't think the Russians are like the US... I don't think the Russians think all their future aircraft will be stealth aircraft... I don't think Su-35 and MiG-35 are stopgaps... I think they are the tool to be used when stealth is not critical.

    The Su-57 seems to be ridiculously cheap so they might produce slightly more of them because they are so affordable to buy, but operational costs will be an important factor too because maintenance can be more than the purchase price over the life of an aircraft... but if they are under 40 million each then I really don't see a sensible purpose for a light 5th gen fighter to be honest because there is little chance it will be much cheaper to buy or to operate.
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    Post  Gazputin on Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:48 am

    I think what is really going on here is the cost of training and keeping highly trained crew
    a single seater requires that your pilots are incredibly well trained ….

    it is no coincidence to me that Russians most successful export planes are 2 seaters
    as it means you don't need such highly trained crews ….
    you have split "skills"

    so if you think this way …. its no coincidence that the Su-30 and Yak-130 are hugely popular

    re Su-57 …. here's my theory
    the 2-seat version …. is going to be a stealthy Mig-41 ……

    I also think the Mig-41 will look a lot like the Su-57 ….
    just as the Mig-29 looks a lot like the Su-27 …
    because the same wind tunnel guys at Tsagi design the aerodynamic layout for a particular flight envelope

    I also think the Mig-41 will borrow the Su-57 flight controls and weapon bay tech
    but carry over the Mig-31 attack computer and missiles ….

    I think the Mig-41 is going to be a 2-seater brother of the Su-57 …..
    I think they can make a beast by using existing bits of the Su-57 and Mig-31 …. to me its the obvious reason there is no 2-seat Su-57
    there is …. it will be called a Mig-41


    why would you build a stealthy Mig-41 and a 2-seat Su-57 ? ….. even the Americans aren't that stupid




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    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:28 pm

    received new engines and radars
    ...
    Over time, all aircraft of the Su-30SM series will be brought to the SM1 standard.
    Wow, I had the impression the new engine being bigger diameter would need new planes.
    If they are indeed doing it as an upgrade to existing airframes thats big, also unifying the radar is good.
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    Post  Gazputin on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:53 am

    the other reason they need more powerful engines on the Su-30 is because the new radar etc electronic gear is using far more electrical power
    so the more powerful engines are needed to maintaining flight performance

    so they need them together …. in the same upgrade
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:56 am

    so if you think this way …. its no coincidence that the Su-30 and Yak-130 are hugely popular

    For certain missions like training then having a two crew aircraft can make things easier, but for other missions it just takes up more space and weight in the aircraft...

    Sometimes having someone concentrating on flying the aircraft as well as someone focusing on the air or ground situation displayed on a display in the cockpit is the optimal way to fight but often especially for air defence a fighter aircraft in the air relies on other platforms too, like ground based radar and airborne radar to find and attack targets and fighters and interceptors don't operate alone. A flight of four aircraft sent to intercept a target means four pilots that need to cooperate and coordinate their actions so they don't shoot each other down and also don't all fire at the same target and waste missiles... in such a case the operator in the AWACS platform will coordinate the attack and give instructions and commands to ensure the optimal use of assets and weapons.

    re Su-57 …. here's my theory
    the 2-seat version …. is going to be a stealthy Mig-41 ……

    Only the Indians seem to want a two seat Su-57 so unless they are prepared to pay for it it probably isn't going to happen.

    What you are suggesting is that a two seat F-15 becomes an F-16... that is not how things work.

    I also think the Mig-41 will borrow the Su-57 flight controls and weapon bay tech
    but carry over the Mig-31 attack computer and missiles ….

    The MiG-41 is an interceptor replacement for the MiG-31... its design focus will be on speed and range and the capacity to carry large numbers of rather large AAMs internally with no consideration for air to ground weapons at all.

    I think they can make a beast by using existing bits of the Su-57 and Mig-31 …. to me its the obvious reason there is no 2-seat Su-57
    there is …. it will be called a Mig-41

    The Su-57 is a capable design but was never designed with balls out speed in mind like the MiG-31... operationally the Su-57 might never fly faster than mach 2, while during interceptions MiG-31s will almost never fly subsonically.

    why would you build a stealthy Mig-41 and a 2-seat Su-57 ? ….. even the Americans aren't that stupid

    The MiG-41 will be scanning for targets and flying at mach 2+ speeds.... any attempt to make it stealthy would be totally pointless because its job is to find and shoot down targets including stealth targets so it will have an enormous and very powerful radar blasting out enormous amounts of energy scanning for targets all the way to interception probably at speeds up to mach 4... there is no way it could possibly be stealthy.

    It might have internal weapons storage, but only to reduce drag.

    the other reason they need more powerful engines on the Su-30 is because the new radar etc electronic gear is using far more electrical power
    so the more powerful engines are needed to maintaining flight performance

    Not strictly true... they need new engines with more power takeoff so they can use higher energy systems on the aircraft... previous engines generated less electrical current because rather less was needed... new radar and other systems require more power but that could be done with even less powerful engines with more power take off capacity... the extra engine power is certainly a bonus however.

    They were experimenting with jamming models of the Backfire and the Il-76... the Il-76 won because it had more electrical power to use with four engines and extra APUs that could be fitted inside the aircraft... which is not to say the 25 ton thrust engines of the Backfire were underpowered.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:07 pm

    Su-57 and Mig-41 will have totally different scope and missions.

    Concerning 2 seat version of su-57. If the Indians pay for it, later Russia could decide to acquire some for itself. Afterall they already decided to acquire for themselves weapon systems originally only made or improved for export (11356 frigates, mig29k, su-30 sm (derived from su30mki), and improved pantsir missile/gun system).
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:33 am

    Very simply the MiG-41 is on a different aircraft tree... Su-9, Su-11, Su-15/15M, Tu-128, MiG-25, MiG-31, and then MiG-41.

    The Su-57 is in the fighter and fighter/bomber tree... so MiG-15, MiG-17, MiG-19, MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-29, Su-27, and then Su-57.

    You could argue the fighter tree splits at the 21/23 as light and heavy, short range and long range fighters and the MiG-29 replaces the MiG-21 and the Su-27 replaces the MiG-23, while the fighter bomber tree is Su-7, Su-17/20/22, MiG-27, with the MiG-29SMT and Su-27SM3 replacing both branches as multirole aircraft, so the MiG-29SMT replaces both the fighter MiG-21, and the attack aircraft MiG-27 and Su-17, while the Flanker family replaces the MiG-23 and the MiG-27 and Su-17 family, with the Su-34 replacing the Su-24 in long range medium strike... and the Su-57 replacing the light strike and fighter components.

    MiG-41 will be strategic interceptor, Su-57 will be stealthy fighter and light attack, Su-34 will be medium strike, Su-35 will be non stealthy long range fighter bomber, and MiG-35 will be medium range non stealthy fighter bomber... and whatever replaces the Su-25 will be CAS.

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