Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Share
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:06 am

    PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

    Multitude of reasons:

    1) PESA won't be outdated. Don't let marketing fool you.
    2) AESA very expensive and performance increase may not be sufficient.
    3) they are working on newer AESA tech like ROFAR (Photonics) and making newer GaAS and GaN modules which aren't out yet. Current are rather inefficient.

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18876
    Points : 19432
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:03 pm

    AESA technology is not mature in Russia yet, but it will be everywhere... from tethered drones with AESA radar and IIR sensors flying above armoured vehicles, to ground searching radar and air scanning radar from helicopters, drones, fixed wing aircraft, land vehicles (including SAM systems and large ground based radar arrays), ships, and satellites... so the number of AESA elements needing to be produced will be thousands of millions... which will come down in price and increase in performance rather rapidly.

    In the meantime PESA is effective and much cheaper, while offering good performance.

    New technologies are getting close that might be quite revolutionary, so it would be a huge waste of money to now invest lots of money buying AESA radars for everything, if these new Photonic radars offer even better performance with a different technology.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:37 pm

    Russia's been producing T/R GaAS modules since early 2000's. They produced them in the tens of thousands dating back in 2009 or so, as many ground based systems use them.

    Reason why they weren't used in airforce is because of cost and that they average around ~10+% failure rate on the T/R modules. So with modules only around 5W, that is a pretty big failure. That usually comes with lack of proper cooling.

    They we're working on T/R modules which was shown quite a few years ago, that we're smaller than the standard modules and operating at 10W in a quad module. What happened to that? Don't know. Possibly still produced for specific needs like wireless network and what not.

    Then Rostec, whom owns both Phazotron and Tikhomirov NIIP is working on the ROFAR, which they have set up test benches and build a whole new facility just for it's development. With even rumors of it being field tested too last year.

    And of course, PESA still has potential, especially since now they are a hybrid structure. High power, high accuracy, higher (than older models) resolution and at a reduced cost compared to AESA, even the older AESA variants.

    Of course the Su-30SM and what not could hold the N036 radar since the N036 is designed around bars radar family but uses the GaAS AESA modules. They could greatly reduce costs by making many more of these radars to be used as backwards compatibility with Su-30 and Su-35. But the cost may skyrocket, while performance is about the same as the Su-35. Because in the end, it's power input/output. 20KW of power from the APU of the Su-35 and Su-57 will end up providing just enough for the radar to have similar performance.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18876
    Points : 19432
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:26 pm

    If they can unify the design of the TR modules so every Russian AESA radar uses the same one... the enormous production volumes will reduce prices, and over time they will perfect production and the design to the point where they get smaller and more powerful and more efficient... and you just replace older modules with new ones as they are produced...

    Whether it is the enormous arrays for ground based SAM radar vehicles, to units on tanks to spot incoming munitions, to ship mounted arrays etc etc etc.

    Keep upgrading module design depending on what is the best and what is available...
    avatar
    LMFS

    Posts : 907
    Points : 901
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:21 am

    Maybe this lack of powerful T/Rs for AESA is one of the reasons for the delay of Su-57... from what I've read, I think they wouldn't match the power output of the Irbis as of now
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18876
    Points : 19432
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:34 am

    They have mentioned an issue regarding wanting to wait for the new engines... why would they not mention issues with AESA array elements?

    This link:

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-08-27/su-57-and-mig-35-land-russian-orders-during-army-2018#

    Posted by Tsavo Lion,

    The initial production batch will be followed by shipments of more aircraft in improved versions that are now in development. In particular, the customer expects an upgraded variant, now undergoing flights trials, to become available in quantities from 2023.

    And also:

    “The Su-57 is a basic platform that will develop, undergo modernization, and re-engining. In the process, we will install more and more advanced systems, so as to expand the combat capabilities and functionality of the baseline aircraft. This shall shape the future of our aviation for many years ahead.”

    In other words, the design is not set in stone and will be continually upgraded and adapted to the various needs of the military...

    I would expect the current model with whatever radar they fit... and the AESA radar has already been tested on a prototype, so making 45 arrays should not be too hard (three arrays in the nose for 15 aircraft), plus new engines... and by 2023 they will likely have new photonic radar antennas and of course laser weapons, and likely improve EO systems too.


    hoom

    Posts : 1393
    Points : 1383
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:19 pm

    I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    marcellogo

    Posts : 121
    Points : 127
    Join date : 2012-08-02

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  marcellogo on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:59 pm

    PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

    Because installing a completely new component in an existing frame take a lot more text time than updating an already installed one.

    Lot of people seems to forget how PESA and AESA radar have different weight distribution and balance.

    While in a PESA radar RF transmitter and antenna elements are separated one from the other, in AESA they are physically connected: it means not only that the weight imbalance between them is completely different but that while in an actual PESA equipped Su-30 or  Su-35 antenna plate can be mechanically steered in order to enhance the quite limited FOW typical of the ESA radars, in an Aesa radar this possibility is much more difficult to achieve.
    Actually, no steerable AESA antenna is still in active service and as it can be seen in the Raven radar for Gripen E/F this future capacity cost a lot in terms of maximum number of emitters you can put in a given space.
    Su-57 resolve the issue through side arrays but such a solution is obviously out of question for legacy frames.


    Last edited by marcellogo on Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    dino00

    Posts : 360
    Points : 405
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Location : portugal

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  dino00 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:31 pm

    A pair of multi-purpose Su-30SM fighters will join the squadron of the air regiment of the Western Military District (ZVO), based in the Kursk region.

    More
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201809261818-mil-ru-14k5r.html
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18876
    Points : 19432
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:06 am

    I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    Which model were they shown?

    If the Indians only want to spend a few billion on this corroboration I would understand the Russians now showing their best silver...
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:12 am

    LMFS wrote:Maybe this lack of powerful T/Rs for AESA is one of the reasons for the delay of Su-57... from what I've read, I think they wouldn't match the power output of the Irbis as of now

    You have reading comprehension issues

    T/R modules been made for years in thousands.

    The greatest progress in the development of W-121 RLC associated with bringing to a state of mass production the main element radar AFAR - transceiver modules. The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for PPR, is a monolithic integrated circuit type GaN - established at FSUE "Scientific-Industrial Enterprise" Istok "(Fryazino, Moscow region) included in the composition of the holding" Roselektronika. "

    Development of modules for microwave radar N036 carried on NPP "Source" since 2003. Based on the power transistors and monolithic integrated circuits interest microwave before acceptance have been developed microwave modules for active phased array of bedinyayuschie in all the two-ne Reda TV antenna, supply chain of chilled water systems and digital governance.

    Currently, the NPP "Istok" launched Russia's first line for the industrial production of transistors and integrated circuits monolithic microwave. For our country, it was a breakthrough, because four years ago, microwave monolithic integrated circuits produced only single specimens. The launch of this line allowed volume production of microwave sub-modules for radar AFAR.

    Established in Enterprise "Istok" pilot line for assembling, configuring, testing and mass production of microwave sub-modules AFAR has a capacity of 100,000 units per year, provided that the development from 2010 serial production of low-temperature multi-layer ceramic (LTSS). Initial ceramic tape manufactured by this company. Commissioned special area for machining of body parts for microwave AFAR submodules with up to 200 thousand sets of parts per year.

    Standard T/R modules are 5-10W used in current AESA.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:23 am; edited 2 times in total
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:16 am

    hoom wrote:I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    That's a lie then cause the number of The/R modules (~1550) at about 5-10W would give it about 400km range which is exactly what Russia aimed at since it's the AESA derivative of the Irbis which is 400km range against fighter sized targets.  Which also makes it most powerful radar in service for a jet. Peak Power would be 15KW

    I think many of you need to do research instead of assuming.

    All other radars used that are AESA are using same wattage of The/R modules unless they introduced GaN which they have not.  So if India complained of N036 then it's bullshit cause then they would complain about every other AESA radar made.

    hoom

    Posts : 1393
    Points : 1383
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  hoom on Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:36 am

    Which model were they shown?
    Presumably the one Russia intended to sell them dunno

    That's a lie then
    https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_fiction/2016/06/10/why-india-needs-to-fast-track-the-pak-fa_601731
    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.
    There are many similar quotes, I think the radar side is less referenced in English than in Russian for some reason.
    It may be that its a mis-quote or misunderstanding but its a reported complaint.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:52 am

    And none of that was ever validated cause they all quote claims from one source.

    First off they (Indian side) wouldn't have such access. Actually, they never even flew it. second, they complained about materials used when they have zero access to it. Why they have zero access is because they were never part of the Su-57 development. All proclaims we're obvious lies and BS cause it was funding (small amounts I might add) for FGFA which never showed the light of day due to India's side.  Russia would never give anyone access to a jet that is fully funded by them and still in experimental stage.  All they did was look at an existing early model and made claims, without actual use.  The complaint for the radar is obviously someone taking what was said about Zhuk A and adding it to Su-57.  

    These claims were more or less debunked.  Radar physically cannot be underpowered as I said. If you wish for me to go into numbers and details all over again, fine. If you understand it that would be good. But I'm assuming you don't.

    N036 is entirely based upon the Bars structure but using AESA elements. It has over 1,500 T/R modules operating at a Max of 10W. Do the math and you will get then performance.

    15KW. Will give it roughly 400km detection/track range. Meaning it surpasses most other existing radars now. Even the Rafales proclaimed aesa which India was wanting badly.

    So that will bouls down to nonsense.

    I suggest one follows Jo from another forum (can't name) who has far more knowledge than I do regarding the materials used. But I have pointed out multiple times of Russia's T/R modules designs and production on this forums.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2489
    Points : 2483
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:20 am


    T/R modules been made for years in thousands.

    But for what ? AESA aren't massivly used in russia. S-400 are pesa just like all the other air def system but pantsir. Airborn based radars too. Ship based radar are aesa but only for the newest.

    Maybe they also use them for PESA radars ?


    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.

    When did that happened ?

    The su-57 is still in testing phase. 5 or 6 years ago it wasn't ready neither the radar was. So complaining about something in development is just showing stupidity of indians.

    And even an underpowered Byelka radar having 20 km range against b-52 is still something indians can only dream about to do ...

    At least chinese try to do something by themselves. Indian sucks. The best for them is to buy what russia sells and just keep their mouths closed. If not they could see sole more su-35 and su-57 going to china and its not the 36 rafales or the probably 36 f-35 they will have to buy for a huge price that will help them against hundreds of chinese sukhois.

    Seriously its like a high school teacher trying to explain mathematics to Einstein ...
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:20 am

    BTW that quote is direct about India's claim of the Zhuk A over the testing of MiG-35D when the Zhuk A only had some ~500 t/R modules

    So that claim is even more bogus about N036 that uses 1522 t/r modules.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:22 am

    Isos wrote:

    T/R modules been made for years in thousands.

    But for what ? AESA aren't massivly used in russia. S-400 are pesa just like all the other air def system but pantsir. Airborn based radars too. Ship based radar are aesa but only for the newest.

    Maybe they also use them for PESA radars ?


    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.

    When did that happened ?

    The su-57 is still in testing phase. 5 or 6 years ago it wasn't ready neither the radar was. So complaining about something in development is just showing stupidity of indians.

    And even an underpowered Byelka radar having 20 km range against b-52 is still something indians can only dream about to do ...

    At least chinese try to do something by themselves. Indian sucks. The best for them is to buy what russia sells and just keep their mouths closed. If not they could see sole more su-35 and su-57 going to china and its not the 36 rafales or the probably 36 f-35 they will have to buy for a huge price that will help them against hundreds of chinese sukhois.

    Seriously its like a high school teacher trying to explain mathematics to Einstein ...

    They are used on Nebo Radar, I believe on some other military large low band radar, they are used on shipping radars used in commercial ships, airports etc.

    2003 is when they started making T/R modules of GaAS design and 2010 for mass production.

    And guarantee you 100% India only saw a basic bench test of the N036 and that was it. Russian MoD stated their satisfaction with it while we're unsatisfied with Zhuk A initially while AM met their standards.
    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 1300
    Points : 1300
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole on Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:29 am

    Come on guys, we are talking about Indians. It´s there normal tactic. Bitch around for years about the product and the prize and in the end buying it without any changces to the first offering.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 872
    Points : 952
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 30
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:46 pm

    PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

    1.Which Zhuk ? All Phazotron offerings for Sukhois are PESA's. Zhuk AE ? too small. It needs to be scaled up which for some reason they didn't do.

    2.Zhuk is Phazotron product and as we see there are NO Phazotron Radars flying on Sukhoi. NIIP Thikomirov in other hand, the maker of Sukhoi radars won't ever touch MiG's. The only exception is MiG-31's.
    ------------------

    Photonics are still years away and so is GaN Module for fighter aircrafts. One would probably can cool few GAN modules for internal ECM suite or cool typical radar sized GaN Antenna if they are on pods in the manner of US Next Gen Jammer. But for fighter radar, the curve seems still favor GAaS Modules.

    The trends prob will move toward GAN first due to established industrial base and the fact one can put it into commercial applications to reduce cost of development.

    Labrador

    Posts : 130
    Points : 130
    Join date : 2018-09-24

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Labrador on Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:07 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    hoom wrote:I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    That's a lie then cause the number of The/R modules (~1550) at about 5-10W would give it about 400km range which is exactly what Russia aimed at since it's the AESA derivative of the Irbis which is 400km range against fighter sized targets.  Which also makes it most powerful radar in service for a jet. Peak Power would be 15KW

    I think many of you need to do research instead of assuming.

    All other radars used that are AESA are using same wattage of The/R modules unless they introduced GaN which they have not.  So if India complained of N036 then it's bullshit cause then they would complain about every other AESA radar made.

    Curious the range for N036 APG-77 v2 which is the best for a fighter with last modules and 1956 have about this range in addtition USA build ASEA radars since almost 20 years and reputed to have the best modules

    And how you can yet know N 036 electric power very rare onfos in more for such new and special fighter ? Russia is not China wich " don't  talk " or almost but it is more difficult sometimes with them than with Western countries to know.
    In addition new radar nothing sure for him only first estimations...

    And the IRBIS is very good but remains a PESA and the range seems long but remains also electric power.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 872
    Points : 952
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 30
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:32 pm

    Labrador wrote:

    Curious the range for N036 APG-77 v2 which is the best for a fighter with last modules and 1956 have about this range in addtition USA build ASEA radars since almost 20 years and reputed to have the best modules

    And how you can yet know N 036 electric power very rare onfos in more for such new and special fighter ? Russia is not China wich " don't  talk " or almost but it is more difficult sometimes with them than with Western countries to know.
    In addition new radar nothing sure for him only first estimations...

    And the IRBIS is very good but remains a PESA and the range seems long but remains also electric power.

    Increase in detection range is not all that one can gauge as improvements. The V2 may have additional modes and such while remaining 400 km maximum range.

    Same things for module technology. It is not necessarily increase in emitted power as in high frequencies such as X-band one will face natural physics barrier namely reduced PAE (Power Added Efficiency) and furthermore the fact that for signal purity designer may opt for A-class operating modes which constrain the PAE in say X-band to be no more than 20-30% (S-band and higher can have 50%) for the module which means increased heat. The module in other hand can be made more reliable, more compact (read, shorter as AESA module width is constrained by operating wavelength).
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2834
    Points : 2816
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:15 pm

    Labrador wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    hoom wrote:I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    That's a lie then cause the number of The/R modules (~1550) at about 5-10W would give it about 400km range which is exactly what Russia aimed at since it's the AESA derivative of the Irbis which is 400km range against fighter sized targets.  Which also makes it most powerful radar in service for a jet. Peak Power would be 15KW

    I think many of you need to do research instead of assuming.

    All other radars used that are AESA are using same wattage of The/R modules unless they introduced GaN which they have not.  So if India complained of N036 then it's bullshit cause then they would complain about every other AESA radar made.

    Curious the range for N036 APG-77 v2 which is the best for a fighter with last modules and 1956 have about this range in addtition USA build ASEA radars since almost 20 years and reputed to have the best modules

    And how you can yet know N 036 electric power very rare onfos in more for such new and special fighter ? Russia is not China wich " don't  talk " or almost but it is more difficult sometimes with them than with Western countries to know.
    In addition new radar nothing sure for him only first estimations...

    And the IRBIS is very good but remains a PESA and the range seems long but remains also electric power.

    Exactly which modules are used? In theory a Chinese AESA once shown for J-11 had over 2000 t/r modules but only low range detection.

    Heat is a major issue. More modules means more heat. Harder to cool and actual major issue of AESA even today, which GaN was supposed to fix.  Lots of modules but very little in cooling properly means reduced usage.

    Next is the APU. How much power is being supplied to the Radar? Irbis E gets upwards to 20KW of power. Assuming N036 gets the same. The modules we know from existing models shown at MACS is 1522 T/R modules. For all we know, they may have increased them. But since we know little, then it's safe to assume the model shown in 2009 is same as now. T/R modules from NPP Istok was shown at Max of 10W at about same year. Improvements may have been made as they were working on it. But since little is known, then I'm assuming they are the same.  So at full usage it's about 15-16KW of total power for all those modules meaning the APU can provide 4-5KW more power if necessary.  But heat will be major issue.

    Power driven beam steering is barely a problem these days due to increased speed of the steering anyway so it really isn't a problem. And the LPI mode is a joke as lower power output means less likely to get clarity on object you are picking up.

    But that is only an opinion of someone I am very close to (and mentioned before) who worked in the dew lines when they replaced a PESA ground based radar with AESA.

    Most said is based upon speculation with information we know. Most info obtained is old info from as early as 2009. Is it accurate today? Don't know. The 400km range may be for targets larger than 3M^2 but should be close as the gap filled with Bars R with only 7kw max power is now closer to that range (between 200km and 400km for 3m^2).

    Right now, is ROFAR (Photonics or also known as quantum radar) which is undergoing tests. Don't know how far they got for a fighter sized based radar but that is their aim. And possibly why a delay in acceptance. I think they are skipping a bit in GaN as they already make GaN modules for 5G wireless and other devices and I believe for ship based AESA.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2489
    Points : 2483
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:53 pm

    Missile launches from su-30SM.

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18876
    Points : 19432
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:49 am

    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.

    Hahahahaha... did that same source suggest they buy the F-35... poor construction, inadequate engine and poor radar... they weren't western media talking about the MiG-29 in the 1980s were they?

    Or the problem could be you... in that same article there was this paragraph:

    It was a mystery why the IAF brass would trash its own future stealth fighter, especially considering its only alternative was the American F-35 which is experiencing major cost and performance problems. But now that a former air chief is under investigation for allegedly receiving kickbacks from Italian defence giant Finmeccanica, it indicates these complaints were politically motivated. Clearly, there was a lobby working against the Russian stealth jet to the detriment of the IAF’s combat readiness.

    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 1300
    Points : 1300
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:26 am

    What a surprise.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:13 pm