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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

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    Shadåw

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Shadåw on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:56 pm

    Found this on youtube its about the Su-30SM`s recently entering service among other things and features filming of the aircraft including some closeups.

    Channel TVC did the news report.


    Su-30SM - news report

    I found one more now with fotage from inside the /factory/

    Su-30SM and others?
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:02 am

    According to this Izvestia report, the Su-30SM's are definately planned as trainers.

    With everyone focusing on the flashy stuff like the Pak Fa and Su-35, the main workhorse of the fighter fleet, the Su-27UB has been forgotten it seems. With increased tempo of flight training in the past few years, the Su-27UB's are being worked to death. The resources of most of them run out by 2014. In the article it's being suggested that they have 2 options to avoid a crisis next year:

    1. High priority overhaul program of the UB's
    2. A new order of "dumbed down" Su-30's which would be pure trainers without all the combat systems (to speed up production)

    Arrow http://izvestia.ru/news/543881
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:03 am

    Izvestia.

    That article is full of innacuracies.

    Guys, stop reading anything off that site.

    From a person more knowledgeable than me:

    "КарКарыч:

    Ссылку бы на оригинал статьи и автора узнать.
    1. Тренировочные(самостоятельные) полёты выполняются на боевых самолетах, а на спарах -вывозные и контрольные.
    2.В ВВС РФ только ОДНА учебная эскадрилья Су-27, в училище. Мож я где-то прохлопал и успели организовать ещё одну учебную?
    3.Ну и 70% налёта на "спарке" даже обсуждать не интересно, просто бред.
    Хотя сама тема дефицита "спарок" всех типов, не только Су-27, стара как ВВС. Их не хватает всегда."

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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:31 am

    I know that Izvestia over dramatises things (check out the titles of their articles Rolling Eyes ) but maybe the gist of the report, about a shortage of trainers is on the ball.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:12 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:According to this Izvestia report, the Su-30SM's are definately planned as trainers.

    With everyone focusing on the flashy stuff like the Pak Fa and Su-35, the main workhorse of the fighter fleet, the Su-27UB has been forgotten it seems. With increased tempo of flight training in the past few years, the Su-27UB's are being worked to death. The resources of most of them run out by 2014. In the article it's being suggested that they have 2 options to avoid a crisis next year:

    1. High priority overhaul program of the UB's
    2. A new order of "dumbed down" Su-30's which would be pure trainers without all the combat systems (to speed up production)

    Arrow http://izvestia.ru/news/543881

    If they need new trainers to replace Su-27UB, than Su-30M2 could be just fine for that job. Su-30SM will be better used if used like F-15E.
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    George1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:07 am

    Russian Air Force to Get Su-30SM Fighter Jets in Bulk

    MOSCOW, July 4 (RIA Novosti) – Sukhoi Su-30SM multirole fighter jets will be delivered to the Russian Air Force as fully equipped squadrons, rather than “piecemeal,” deputy commander Colonel Sergei Kobylash said Thursday.

    The Su-30SM is the latest development of the twin-seat Su-30 jet fighter family, a derivative of the long-serving single-seat Sukhoi Su-27, one of the air force's most important warplanes.

    The new aircraft has better radar and communications capabilities, an improved friend-or-foe system, a new ejection seat and new weapons. It also has thrust-vectoring engine nozzles, providing super-maneuverability at low airspeeds.

    The first contract between the Defense Ministry and Irkut Corporation for 30 Su-30SMs was signed in March last year. The Russian Air Force received the first two Su-30SM aircraft in November. In mid-December, a new contract was signed for an additional 30 jets by 2016.
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    sepheronx

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    Why Irkutsk never presented a single seat variant of Su-30MKI?

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:54 am

    There was a period (and by the sounds of Su-35S sale to RuAF), that single seater jets are still important. Well, two seater makes sense for an advanced multiroll aircraft or interceptor but for an air superiority fighter like the Su-30MKI is, I can see that roll still being done effectively and efficiently without the need of the second seater. Why has Irkutsk not offered a single seater? They could easily turn the second seat into an avionics package to fill its space, the jet could be very successful and could have maybe been bought and used instead of Su-35S from KnAAPO. Su-35S is advanced and all, but it seems that Su-30 series have much better turn out rate in the international market than the Su-35S and with the more investments that Irkutsk seems to get, especially with both sales of Su-30MKI and variants, as well as Yak-130, they could pull resources to push even further development of it. As well, seeing as how Irkutsk is pushing for a further development of Su-30MKI into Super Sukhoi which is supposed to field an AESA radar and have further sensor fusions, as well as reduce RCS significantly. Those alone, could be suitable for an advanced variant of Su-30SM and would prove maybe just as good if not better than Su-35S as it would have newer technology and fund these industries as well as push for newer technology. Yes, I understand that the Irbis-E PESA radar holds a lot of advance technology to be close to comparable to the AESA technologies out their, but still, this drive would be very important and could possibly be even a larger boost to Su-30 sales as other countries who are obviously sold on the concept of newer technologies, could very well be interested in having an advanced Su-30 with 5th gen technologies.

    What I am getting at is, if they had a single seater variant, Russia would have possibly ordered more of this variant than the 60. As there would be even more money in Irkutsk and potential for even more in terms of upgrades and new orders, they would be enticed to create new technologies and or upgrade it further with current technologies and it would already be fielded rather than awaiting other countries to cooperate (India as an example), and with the new technologies already being fielded, it would entice other countries to buy. Su-35S sounds like a great jet and all, but it is becoming a failure in the international market, thus even with limited sales to Russian MoD, it will continue to be expensive, as well as spare parts for it.

    Oh, and a single seater variant would also be a great sale to countries whom may not be interested in a dual seater.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:10 am

    Because Irkut produced the Su-27UB, and has never made a single seat Su-27. That simple.

    http://www.irkut.com/en/corporation/iaz/history/

    Su-35 is a failure in the export market simply because of previous Flanker success. If Irkut rolled out a single seat Su-27, it would do no better today, maybe a few small sales.
    RuAF is getting all the single seat Flanker it needs from KNAAZ. If they want AESA, this decade there will be a set produced by NIIP and used by KNAAZ to make T-50s. Su-35 adaptation certainly possible, but to be frank, given what an excellent set Irbis is, there are far bigger priorities in the RuAF.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:39 am

    I would say that Irbis is a great radar in the sense that its long detection and tracking range.  But it has less in terms of the amount of targets it can track at once, as well, as being some hybrid ESA, there is very little info regarding its capabilities in LPI and EW/ECM/ECCM capabilities.

    Having a two seater to one seater from what I heard was not very hard and is far from impossible for Irkutsk.  They can convert one of the seats into a avionics system.  I remember reading about this about the Su-25 for Russia (Since they made dual seaters and Georgia made single seaters).  I think there was other aircrafts that were given the option.

    It was a question and I thought it may have been interesting to say the least.

    Kinda hard to say that Su-35 is a failure because of previous Flanker success no? Because if it is better than previous flankers, then it should sell better than these previous flankers. It is a great fighter imo, but it just seems odd about its failure in the international market. Yet, Su-30 still sells quite well, even with its lack capabilities compared to Su-35. Seems odd, since it is supposed to be the better plane.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:49 am

    Irbis also has excellent scanning angles due to both mechanical and electronic scanning. Is 30 target tracking and 8 simultaneous attack capability inadequate or something?
    Most of its characteristics past that not publicly available, but I see no reason to assume it lags. PAK-FA is well into testing, if the radar is found to be such a leap, they can always move towards equipping Irbis with AESA front end.

    Of course it is feasible Irkut could have converted to single seat production, but let me remind you the state of things in the 90s. Nobody had time or funds to change the tooling and production line, they had hard enough time modernizing Su-30 and producing it in time. Add to that conflict with Sukohi and KNAAPO....it would not have been easy, nor useful at all. Su-30 family was the logical path for export.

    Converting a two seater into a one seater without changing airframe is stupid and nobody would buy it, as you would be paying the costs of a two-seat airframe without the only reason to even go that way.
    The Su-25T that you mentioned had a very rough time in trials, and it was specifically docked for having crappier flight characteristics than the Su-25.
    MiG-35/29K today has the same airframe for dual seaters and single, but that is a new airframe designed with that in mind. The Su-27UB was not.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:37 am

    Actually converting a two seater into a one seater is not silly... the Mig-29M2 is a two seater in its single and dual seat models and there are benefits to both aircraft sharing basically the same airframe and structure and design.

    The real issue is... with export Su-27SMs available and export Su-35s becoming available... what is the point of a single seat Su-30?

    Having two seats does not mean you always have to have two crew.

    It could be its own trainer.

    The Russian Military certainly seem to be buying the Su-30s as trainers and for other missions where two crew would be useful as there is no two seat Su-35.

    The new 5th gen avionics however are supposed to dramatically reduce pilot workload and make a two man crew unnecessary.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:06 pm

    IRBIS has:

    - more detection range than any other radar in the world
    - much better search angels than any other radar in the world

    dont know why is all the fuss about. Eventually IRBIS will be replaceable with AESA.

    a89

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  a89 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:59 pm

    IRBIS has:

    - more detection range than any other radar in the world
    - much better search angels than any other radar in the world

    What is this based on?

    Of course it is feasible Irkut could have converted to single seat production, but let me remind you the state of things in the 90s. Nobody had time or funds to change the tooling and production line, they had hard enough time modernizing Su-30 and producing it in time. Add to that conflict with Sukohi and KNAAPO....it would not have been easy, nor useful at all. Su-30 family was the logical path for export.

    I remember reading a while ago that KnAAPO and and IAPO had a non written agreement. The former would produce the single seater variants and the latter the two seaters. This was broken when KnAAPO signed a contract with China for Su-30MK.

    Kinda hard to say that Su-35 is a failure because of previous Flanker success no? Because if it is better than previous flankers, then it should sell better than these previous flankers. It is a great fighter imo, but it just seems odd about its failure in the international market. Yet, Su-30 still sells quite well, even with its lack capabilities compared to Su-35. Seems odd, since it is supposed to be the better plane.

    Circumstances are different. Major clients that could be interested already operate Su-30. The logical thing to do would be to upgrade these and not acquire Su-35.

    The Russian Military certainly seem to be buying the Su-30s as trainers and for other missions where two crew would be useful as there is no two seat Su-35.

    The advantage of buying of Su-30MKI versions is that they have beel built in large quantities, thus price is lower.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:57 am

    It is no secret that Irbis has a 350-400km track range against a tanker sized aircraft and around 300+ km for a fighter sized aircraft, making it have significantly large track range compared to any other fighter based radar (I read that APG-79 had something like 200+ km track range for fighter sized targets).  But in order to have such a large track range, it produces a lot of power output, which can be spotted quite early by enemy aircraft sensors.  Maybe quicker than the Irbis radar would be able to spot it, as with most of these jets with such sensors, have LO RCS.

    It would have been interesting to see Irkutsk offer Russia a comparable jet to the Su-35S for less, as the airframe already used in high production would allow costs to be down for production, so Russia could have afforded to purchase more of these jets in order to keep numbers up and have a good work around until PAK FA comes in numbers.

    Like guy above me said, due to Su-30 being already in numbers, it is cheaper to upgrade them than purchase Su-35. As well, newer Su-30's would be cheaper than Su-35 and upgrading them to newer standard with newer radar would probably be equally cheaper and just as good.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:10 am

    If Irkut made a single seat Su-30, it would NOT have cost less, since they would have needed to make a new production line, new tooling, a whole new testing and trials period, etc etc, entirely defeating the purpose.
    Buying Su-30SM can be defended, but a single seat Irkut Flanker is counterproductive.


    Irkut is phasing out Flanker production by the end of the decade in any case, making a new airframe does not make sense.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:47 am

    TR1 wrote:If Irkut made a single seat Su-30, it would NOT have cost less, since they would have needed to make a new production line, new tooling, a whole new testing and trials period, etc etc, entirely defeating the purpose.
    Buying Su-30SM can be defended, but a single seat Irkut Flanker is counterproductive.


    Irkut is phasing out Flanker production by the end of the decade in any case, making a new airframe does not make sense.

    So besides Yak-130, they are dropping out of the fighter market? That would suck. Would be interesting to see what they could come up with.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:56 am

    They are moving on to big, lucrative commercial contracts (MS-21 in particular) but Yak-130 will remain in production due to large demand until at least 2020. The line was moved from Sokol already, they won't be moving it again.
    Irkut already moved Be-200 production to focus on the bigger fish.
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    sepheronx

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    Why Irkutsk never presented a single seat variant of Su-30MKI?

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:12 am

    TR1 wrote:They are moving on to big, lucrative commercial contracts (MS-21 in particular) but Yak-130 will remain in production due to large demand until at least 2020. The line was moved from Sokol already, they won't be moving it again.
    Irkut already moved Be-200 production to focus on the bigger fish.

    Yak-130 has huge potential on export and so far, it does look pretty good, and same with domestic as well. They just need to push it out more, as I bet many african countries would be quite happy to have it. And then there is Brazil with the potential of getting it as well, especially if Brazil is part of the deal in using their own radar for it. I cannot see them shutting down or moving production of Yak-130 after 2020.

    MS-21 has lots of potential, but the civil market is flooded with foreign jets and Russian commercial jets seem to get bad wrap, even though they are good (Tu-204 has lots of potential but rarely sold), so Irkutsk shouldn't put all their eggs into one basket, especially since that the military market is still very lucrative.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:38 am

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/583726.html

    Unexpected. In December 2012 a contract was signed with Sukhoi for delivery of 16 Su-30M2 to the RuAF, in 2013-2015.

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    medo

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:22 am

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/583726.html

    Unexpected. In December 2012 a contract was signed with Sukhoi for delivery of 16 Su-30M2 to the RuAF, in 2013-2015.


    I think 16 Su-30M2 will be enough for 96 Su-35 fleet to serve as trainers (2 per squadron). This could just confirm, that Su-30SM will form independent squadrons. Are all those 4 existing Su-30M2 serve in Far East?
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    George1

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:58 pm

    medo wrote:
    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/583726.html

    Unexpected. In December 2012 a contract was signed with Sukhoi for delivery of 16 Su-30M2 to the RuAF, in 2013-2015.


    I think 16 Su-30M2 will be enough for 96 Su-35 fleet to serve as trainers (2 per squadron). This could just confirm, that Su-30SM will form independent squadrons. Are all those 4 existing Su-30M2 serve in Far East?

    can we assure this from some other source?
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    mack8

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  mack8 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:28 pm

    Someone at paralay.com said that, in addition to the Bars-R radar  (i assume R is for Rossii), the Su-30SM has Izd.99SM aka Izd. 99M2 or AL-31FM2 engines of 14,000kgf thrust. Is that accurate info, is it confirmed ? (imo i always thought MKI type aircraft could use more power, they are heavy aircraft and a little draggier than a KnAAZ Su-30MK f.e.)

    On another note, something that puzzled me, the Su-30SM bort 54, is it really the third SM, or is it 01 or 02 with the new bort ?

    Thank you.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:05 am

    New Su-30SM in the sky.



    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/38903/


    kopyo-21

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  kopyo-21 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:03 am

    In the take-off magazine No. 18 Nov 2010, Yuri Bely, GM of Tikhomirov-NIIP , said that "Just a fortnight ago, in late September, there was the first successful launch of an upgraded air-to-air missile by a Su-27SM3 prototype, with the missile hitting its target. To extend the missile’s range, we had upgraded the antenna, transmitter and RF update channel of the Su-27’s organic radar".

    Do they upgrade the existing N001-01A twist-cassergainian antenna or replace it by new one (new twist-cassergainian or even Pero PESA anteena). If they upgrade the exiting antenna so what components / how are they upgraded? Thank you.
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    Viktor

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    Su-30SM for RuAF

    Post  Viktor on Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:16 am

    5th Su-30SM



    LINK

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