Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Share
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2754
    Points : 2736
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:29 am

    In contrast, Su-35 isn't actually all that expensive. Rather, Russia can procure a lot of them. The Navy on the other hand enjoys the Su-30SM due to it being dual seater and carries a good arsenal of cruise missiles that will work fine for antiship use. Modern Su-30SM's radar has drastically improved with upwards detection ranges of 350km compared to the 400km of the Su-35 so for air engagement, it is quite suitable (especially since majority of the weapons do not even come to that close of engagement range anyway).
    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 1152
    Points : 1152
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole on Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:44 am

    The whole family has a lot of upgrade potential. There´s already talk of an Su-30SM1 version with new radar and electronics. After 2020 the Su-30 will receive the radar of the Su-35 while the Su-35 will get a version of the Su-57 radar.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2457
    Points : 2451
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:56 am

    miketheterrible wrote:In contrast, Su-35 isn't actually all that expensive.  Rather, Russia can procure a lot of them.  The Navy on the other hand enjoys the Su-30SM due to it being dual seater and carries a good arsenal of cruise missiles that will work fine for antiship use.  Modern Su-30SM's radar has drastically improved with upwards detection ranges of 350km compared to the 400km of the Su-35 so for air engagement, it is quite suitable (especially since majority of the weapons do not even come to that close of engagement range anyway).

    Well r-37 have 300+ km range, uran has almost 300km range, oniks depend of the flight profil is also more than 300km in range. So the engagement range is not that far away from the radar's capacities for big valuable targets like AWACs and ships.

    eridan

    Posts : 159
    Points : 163
    Join date : 2012-12-13

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  eridan on Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:49 pm

    I was talking about the airframe structure design. One can always put in new avionics and such. Perhaps even new engines. (though that would have been done already, as engines are there, especially from Salyut which claims no modificatio to plane is needed. But apparently there is no money/willpower to act on that)

    But structure of Su-35 was redesigned significantly from Su-27/Su-30. It uses lighter materials and has radar absorbant materials incorporated in it. It was strengthened compared to Su-27, just like Su-30 was, and more fuel tank areas were placed in it. In the end, without comparing avionics or the engine, it offers 3600 km range and 6000 hour lifespan. (theoretically Su-35 has the drop tank option for added range, but until that's actually tested lets leave it aside) Compared to Su-30SM's 3000 km range and same hour lifespan. Both are rated to carry the same 8 tons of weapons. But as it is, its power to weight ratio is lower. Even if somehow more powerful engines are ordered and incorporated, it would not fully neutralize greater fuel consumption so range would drop even more.

    With current engines, Su30sm has low altitude speed mach 1.06, compared to 1.4 for su-35.
    it has high altitude speed of mach 1.9, compared to 2.25
    it has altitude ceiling of 17.3 km compared to 18

    It's simply an airframe of older design. The two seater option is nice in certain roles, but most missions can be done by one crewmember today. Otherwise we'd not be seeing proliferation of single seater planes which don't even have a twin seater option. Sure, let navy have their two seaters (even though i'd say they don't need it either) but most sukhois could be singleseaters. Unless one is doing low level combat air support where one crewmember is looking for targets and other one is flying - there's really little reason to stick to two seater planes.
    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 1152
    Points : 1152
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole on Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:18 pm

    Front seat flies
    Back seat fires.

    The guy on the back seat is looking at the radar, programing cruise missiles or anti-radar missiles. He helps to navigate the plane.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3387
    Points : 3471
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:48 am

    Su-30SM prove excellent in Syria and both RuAF and RuNAVY are interested in more of them. True, RuAF also have Su-34 and Su-35, but Su-30SM is still one of the best fighters in the World, is still one of the best fighter-bombers in the World, it could as well work as combat trainer and it could play a role of flying command post of strike group. Su-30SM have the same new IFDL as Su-35, so it have excellent capabilities of networking. Su-30SM have two pilots, so it could fly longer time than Su-35 as pilots could change between themselves for flying and resting and in combat pilot in front is flying and care for air to air dogfight, while WSO behind is warking with armament for air to ground and air to sea attacks, working with datalinks and coordinating the operation of strike group and communicate with higher command. Pilot in Su-35 could not flying, fighting and coordinating work of a strike group at once. He is the one receiving commands from Su-30SM. C3I task need another man in the cockpit and this is WSO in Su-30SM.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3718
    Points : 3756
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:14 pm

    eridan wrote:I was talking about the airframe structure design.

    why stealth is so needed? This is not interdictior fighter. Airframe is worsen than what F-16? Eurofighter? Rafale?  Then why to overpay?

    After wiki (of course not exact data)

    Unit cost
    US$40–65 million (Su-35S)
    Su-30MK2: US$37.5 million


    so ~ 1,74 timesmore expensive. Perhaps now is clear.





    With current engines, Su30sm has low altitude speed mach 1.06, compared to 1.4 for su-35.
    it has high altitude speed of mach 1.9 Ma=2.2, compared to 2.25

    correct my math speed on altitude: 2,350 Km/h = 652,8 m/s  Ma = 295 m/s  => Ma=  2,2
    low altitude:  1350 km/h = 375 M/s; Ma=340 m/s, => 1,1 Ma


    it is still better then F-35, Rafale or Hornet or on paid (speed)  with F-16?

    BTW Su-35S - speed: 2500 км/ч = 694 m/s, Ma=295 ms => 2,35 Ma





    It's simply an airframe of older design. The two seater option is nice in certain roles, but most missions can be done by one crewmember today. Otherwise we'd not be seeing proliferation of single seater planes which don't even have a twin seater option. Sure, let navy have their two seaters (even though i'd say they don't need it either) but most sukhois could be singleseaters. Unless one is doing low level combat air support where one crewmember is looking for targets and other one is flying - there's really little reason to stick to two seater planes.




    really? afteri wki:
    F/A-18F Super Hornet: two-seat variant.
    NEA-18G: Two F/A-18Fs modified as prototypes of the EA-18G Growler.[182]
    EA-18G Growler: Electronic warfare variant of the F/A-18F to replace the U.S. Navy's Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler.
    Advanced Super Hornet: Variant of the F/A-18F Super Hornet with Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) and has a further reduced radar cross section (RCS), with the option of a stealthy enclosed weapons pod and built-in IRST21 sensor system.



    so all new Hornets are  2 seaters, soUs navy wanst 2 seaters for osme reason...

    Israeli or Indian AF also like 2 seaters. On what facts do you base your opinion?
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2457
    Points : 2451
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:43 pm

    For complicated mission where you need to : use radar for ground mapping, air to air defence, antiship attack, put data into missiles, complicated navigation to avoid dangeroys space, avoid anti air system, use EW, coordinate a formation of many fighter/bombers.... you need a two seat fighter.

    Su-35 and su-57 can do all this but the single pilot inside will necer be as effective as two guys. That's why they use them for air to air engagement and su-30/34 for other tasks.

    That's also why mig-35 has both variants for export clients that wants to have a mix of them.
    avatar
    galicije83

    Posts : 43
    Points : 45
    Join date : 2015-04-30
    Age : 38
    Location : Novi Sad, Serbia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  galicije83 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:46 am

    Venezuela Su-30MK2 goes 2550km/h at altitude 22km...

    start at 10:04
    avatar
    AMCXXL

    Posts : 248
    Points : 250
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  AMCXXL on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:07 pm

    Nº 55 and 56 at Novosiborsk , probaly go to Kursk
    Have new type of board numbers and also "BKC" in the tail

    Previously Kursk received Nº51 to Nº54 and Chernyakovsk Nº 76 and 77, totalling 8 this year  



    Last edited by AMCXXL on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 12236
    Points : 12715
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:00 pm

    Yes. A second squadron is forming with Su-30SM in Kursk

    86 Su-30SM received from VKS in total

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3261508.html
    avatar
    dino00

    Posts : 309
    Points : 354
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Location : portugal

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  dino00 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:04 pm

    UAC and the Defense Ministry intend to sign a new contract for the supply of Su-30SM

    The United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) plans to produce 12-14 Su-30SM fighters per year, a new contract for the delivery of these vehicles to the Aerospace Forces will be signed this year.

    the president of UAC Yury Slyusar said.

    "This year we are planning to sign a new contract that will ensure the loading of the Irkutsk aircraft plant in the next few years at the level of 12-14 cars per year." As the MS-21 develops, the plant will become civil, but now there is a demand for the Su-30 and we are interested in it production, including from the point of view of the economy of the enterprise ",

    https://vpk.name/news/224642_oak_i_minoboronyi_namerenyi_podpisat_novyii_kontrakt_na_postavku_su30sm.html
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2754
    Points : 2736
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:43 pm

    so how many total?
    avatar
    dino00

    Posts : 309
    Points : 354
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Location : portugal

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  dino00 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:11 pm

    They don`t say.
    avatar
    LMFS

    Posts : 826
    Points : 820
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:25 pm

    "Several years" @ 12-14 "cars"/year mean 40-50 "cars" at least... probably 4 squadrons?

    Wait, I found this:

    https://russiamil.wordpress.com/2018/01/24/russian-air-force-procurement-plans-2/
    https://iz.ru/679043/ilia-kramnik/novye-krylia-vvs-rossii

    "...These will include 66 additional Su-30SM aircraft, with 16 of these to be delivered in 2018 based on an existing contract signed in 2012 and the other 50 by 2022 based on a new contract to be signed in the near future."

    So 200 Su-30? That starts looking serious Cool
    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 1152
    Points : 1152
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Hole on Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:21 pm

    The Navy wants more.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3718
    Points : 3756
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:45 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    "...These will include 66 additional Su-30SM aircraft, with 16 of these to be delivered in 2018 based on an existing contract signed in 2012 and the other 50 by 2022 based on a new contract to be signed in the near future."

    So 200 Su-30? That starts looking serious Cool
    so they prefer more expensive Su-30 over cheaper MiG-35 because of budget restrictions? Smile
    avatar
    LMFS

    Posts : 826
    Points : 820
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:51 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    so they prefer more expensive Su-30 over cheaper MiG-35 because of budget restrictions? Smile
    They are cancelling MiG-35 too cry
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3718
    Points : 3756
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:53 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    so they prefer more expensive Su-30 over cheaper MiG-35 because of budget restrictions? Smile
    They are cancelling MiG-35 too cry

    before new Indian contract? wow money hard talk, but current war is economic so saving money is painful process Sad
    avatar
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 40
    Points : 42
    Join date : 2015-12-30

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:02 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    so they prefer more expensive Su-30 over cheaper MiG-35 because of budget restrictions? Smile
    They are cancelling MiG-35 too cry

    I did not read that they are cancelling it... i read that they mat buy a lower number than initially planned in the next 10 years (e.g. 70 airplanes instead of 170)
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2754
    Points : 2736
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:03 pm

    They are joking cause of the nonsense being thrown around here by usual suspects about canceling a tank when it never was said it being cancelled.
    avatar
    LMFS

    Posts : 826
    Points : 820
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:06 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    before new Indian contract? wow money hard talk,  but current war is economic so saving money is painful process Sad
    Hahaha I never know when you are being serious. MiG-35 is going to be ordered as well but by what people say it seems Russia is going to be cancelled altogether, for gods sake

    BTW, welcome back! You were gone for a while...
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3718
    Points : 3756
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:18 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    MiG-35 is going to be ordered as well but by what people say it seems Russia is going to be cancelled altogether


    mind that Russia has been cancelled since Ivan the Terrible Smile



    BTW, welcome back! You were gone for a while...

    oh man this supposed to be lazy vacation and turned out to be closer to action in romancing the stone Razz[/quote]
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3718
    Points : 3756
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:21 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:They are joking cause of the nonsense being thrown around here by usual suspects about canceling a tank when it never was said it being cancelled.

    From the other hand i can see that in Russia many things seem to be discussed first in public space before going official. Is this a way to test public reaction? or way t talking between industry and MoD? Duno but true that nothing was officially cancelled.
    avatar
    LMFS

    Posts : 826
    Points : 820
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:29 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    From the other hand  i can see that in Russia many things seem to be discussed first in public space before going official. Is this a way to test public reaction? or way t talking between industry and MoD? Duno but true that nothing was officially cancelled.
    That sounds actually right to me... lots of testing waters / creating conditions for price negotiation would make sense. Otherwise they are retards lol1 lol1

    Sponsored content

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:00 am