Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Share
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16741
    Points : 17349
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:28 am

    Given the size the aspect is not important is it?

    I mean a 3m2 target is a 3m2 target whether it is flying left or right or towards the radar.

    The important factor is RCS size and the fact that it will be a closing target.

    Receeding targets reduce tracking range.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:37 pm

    I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

    Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



    If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

    Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.

    marcellogo

    Posts : 78
    Points : 84
    Join date : 2012-08-02

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  marcellogo on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:40 pm

    medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

    Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



    If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

    Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.
    THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.
    avatar
    AMCXXL

    Posts : 98
    Points : 100
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  AMCXXL on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:26 pm

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12140129@egNews
    08/28/2017
    The party of new Su-30SM fighter aircraft entered the Aviation Regiment of the Air Defense Forces in the Kursk Región

    The fighters of the generation "4+" Su-30SM made a flight from the airfield of the Irkutsk aircraft factory to man the squadrons of the aviation regiment of the Western Military District (ZVO), based in the Kursk region.
    During the planned rearmament, the regiment received two super-maneuverable Su-30SM fighters. Aviation equipment will go into the regiment's combat strength and take up protection of air borders.
    At present, the pilots have completed the retraining at the base of the Lipetsk Aviation Center of the VKS and carried out the first sorties with the combat employment of aviation weapons.



    This two could be the series 1416 and 1417 , deployed after the 1418-19-20 of last week
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:43 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

    Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



    If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

    Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.
    THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

    [1] Radar Parameters

    Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
    F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
    F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

    Quoted from Carlo Kopp

    No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2130
    Points : 2146
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:34 pm

    medo wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

    Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



    If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

    Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.
    THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

    [1] Radar Parameters

    Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
    F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
    F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

    Quoted from Carlo Kopp

    No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

    Well 40km is nothing to brag about though. Su-30SM is being inducted right now, in 2017.
    The last F-22A was delivered more than half a decade ago (late 2011).

    So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.
    APG-77(V)1 can deal with them from more 100 km afar.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:10 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    medo wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

    Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



    If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

    Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.
    THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

    [1] Radar Parameters

    Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
    F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
    F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

    Quoted from Carlo Kopp

    No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

    Well 40km is nothing to brag about though. Su-30SM is being inducted right now, in 2017.
    The last F-22A was delivered more than half a decade ago (late 2011).

    So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.
    APG-77(V)1 can deal with them from more 100 km afar.

    IRST detect F-22 at longer range and could use R-27ET against it. Anyway, F-22 is more stealth than newer F-35 and if its RCS is 0,1 m2, than it is no problem for GBAD as well as for ARM missiles to lock on it. It is like attacking a cruise missile.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1505
    Points : 1505
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:20 pm

    medo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    medo wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

    Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



    If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

    Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.
    THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

    [1] Radar Parameters

    Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
    F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
    F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

    Quoted from Carlo Kopp

    No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

    Well 40km is nothing to brag about though. Su-30SM is being inducted right now, in 2017.
    The last F-22A was delivered more than half a decade ago (late 2011).

    So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.
    APG-77(V)1 can deal with them from more 100 km afar.

    IRST detect F-22 at longer range and could use R-27ET against it. Anyway, F-22 is more stealth than newer F-35 and if its RCS is 0,1 m2, than it is no problem for GBAD as well as for ARM missiles to lock on it. It is like attacking a cruise missile.

    kilo is missing the point. The point is, the F-22 isn't as stealth as proclaimed. And while the Su-30 radar may see the F-22 at only 40km~ range, its IRST would see it roughly at 110km range. Ground assets would see it significantly further away, etc etc etc. It would be less trouble for a MiG-31 as well with its Zaslon radar due to L band use.

    The other point Medo is making is that F-35 is a lot less stealthy thank F-22 so in theory, Su-30 would have less trouble see it than it does F-22.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2130
    Points : 2146
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:29 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:kilo is missing the point. The point is, the F-22 isn't as stealth as proclaimed. And while the Su-30 radar may see the F-22 at only 40km~ range, its IRST would see it roughly at 110km range. Ground assets would see it significantly further away, etc etc etc.  It would be less trouble for a MiG-31 as well with its Zaslon radar due to L band use.  

    The other point Medo is making is that F-35 is a lot less stealthy thank F-22 so in theory, Su-30 would have less trouble see it than it does F-22.

    Assuming a Su-30 can comfortably detect an F-35 at 100 or 120 km. It's still bad imo.
    Western radars and missile technology has evolved enough to counter such 'performance'.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1505
    Points : 1505
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:kilo is missing the point. The point is, the F-22 isn't as stealth as proclaimed. And while the Su-30 radar may see the F-22 at only 40km~ range, its IRST would see it roughly at 110km range. Ground assets would see it significantly further away, etc etc etc.  It would be less trouble for a MiG-31 as well with its Zaslon radar due to L band use.  

    The other point Medo is making is that F-35 is a lot less stealthy thank F-22 so in theory, Su-30 would have less trouble see it than it does F-22.

    Assuming a Su-30 can comfortably detect an F-35 at 100 or 120 km. It's still bad imo.
    Western radars and missile technology has evolved enough to counter such 'performance'.

    not really. Physics is physics.  The radars used now at 1500~ t/R modules operating at 15w each at peak use with 10% failure rate would possibly give the F-22 the ability to see the Su-30 at roughly 300km at peak. Less than that at normal operation, due to the Su-30 being bulky in RCS. But like in most air to air engagements, it isn't a 1 to 1. As well, it depends on the scenario.  Once F-22 or F-35 launches its missile, it is vaulnerable. Recall recently the Su-22 being shot down, and how it managed to counter the first AIM launch.

    If it was head on, and both were flying towards each other, fine. But that isn't the case.

    That also brings into the point as to why Russia moves closer to short engagements because when it is in the ~100km range, it can use its various sensors to track/engage a target. BVR is a different case. But then again, Su-30 isn't an interceptor nor air superiority. It's a multirole aircraft to compliment Su-35.

    Which now brings me to another question: why don't they bother adding L band elements to all their Radar now? It would be ideal when scanning with L band in order to look for "stealthy" targets then use the xband for tracking? I mean, the technology has been used plenty before.

    T-47

    Posts : 211
    Points : 215
    Join date : 2017-07-17
    Location : Planet Earth

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  T-47 on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:50 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Recall recently the Su-22 being shot down, and how it managed to counter the first AIM launch.

    I don't know that, can you please elaborate the whole scenario? I only knew about the shot down.

    That also brings into the point as to why Russia moves closer to short engagements

    What does that mean?
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 927
    Points : 925
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:25 am

    Which now brings me to another question: why don't they bother adding L band elements to all their Radar now? It would be ideal when scanning with L band in order to look for "stealthy" targets then use the xband for tracking? I mean, the technology has been used plenty before.

    I've read you need a big antenna for L band and other lower freuency. Those 70-100 cm antennas on fighters are jst too small to be used for L band radars. What they could and should do is introduce new smaller AWACS with L band radar and put them also on all their new ships.

    US says their new AWACS working in L band can guide missiles. Actually they said that when Russia and China introduced their 5 generation fighters so its probably a lie for their domestic public (f-16.net).
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16741
    Points : 17349
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:34 pm

    So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.

    Really?

    AMRAAM has a PK of 40% against targets that were unaware they were under attack... I would expect something like a 5% PK against aware targets with modern ESM systems like the Flanker.

    That means after 6 shots the F-22 is armed with a cannon... sounds like the Flanker is in there... new generation AAMs for the PAK FA look rather interesting to me... what has western fighters got? Improved AMRAAM... big deal.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5611
    Points : 5715
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:32 pm


    Guys in case of war F-22 and Su-30 will not be going after each other because they will be tasked with set of targets completely different than each other...
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3261
    Points : 3367
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:52 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Guys in case of war F-22 and Su-30 will not be going after each other because they will be tasked with set of targets completely different than each other...

    First and foremost they will both be tasked with air superiority, and thus will encounter each other.

    I would imagine that the assignment of bombing missions to multi-role fighters is a luxury reserved largely for when the airspace in the sector has already been secured, or for when you're attacking a 3rd world country that doesn't have much of an airforce.
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1727
    Points : 1884
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:14 pm

    In case of war, the aircraft that will prevail is the one that still has an airstrip to take off and land.

    The rest is semantics.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:42 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    medo wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

    Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



    If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

    Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.
    THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

    [1] Radar Parameters

    Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
    F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
    F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
    Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

    Quoted from Carlo Kopp

    No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

    Well 40km is nothing to brag about though. Su-30SM is being inducted right now, in 2017.
    The last F-22A was delivered more than half a decade ago (late 2011).

    So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.
    APG-77(V)1 can deal with them from more 100 km afar.

    I don't think Su-30SM is so toothless here. radar is not the only option here. If F-22 want to see Su-30SM for 200 or 300 km away, he must transmit high power signals to it, that receivers will detect returning signal. PESA or AESA doesn't make a difference. Working with high power concentrated beam for long range searching means Su-30SM will detect F-22 with its L-150 Pastel ELINT at few 100 km away. Don't forget, that newer Pastel could program anti-radar missiles and air to air missiles as well. So this could be the first surprise, that Su-30SM or Su-34 could send anti-radar or passive AA missile against F-22. Su-30SM could detect F-22 with IRST in decent distance and send long range IR AAM like R-27ET. Don't forget, that Su-30SM is also fully networked and could work passively with IRST and Pastel searching for targets. Up to now, US launched AMRAAMs only against targets which didn't have ECM equippment and have old RWRs and even in that case they didn't always hit the target as missile evading maneuver works well against them. Su-30SM is getting the newest SAP-518SM ECM pods and we do not know yet, how effective they are against AMRAAMs, but they are designed to protect against AMRAAMs, Meteors, etc. We see in Syria, that old Russian flares in Syrian Su-22 work well against AIM-9X AAM, but Su-30SM have newer bigger ones. At the end, there is a good possibility, that F-22 and Su-30SM have a duel with guns and Su-30SM with TVC is quite equal
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1505
    Points : 1505
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:18 pm

    That was the other thing I was going to mention. Is that if both sides are going to go without using their own radar, then they both would rely on something like IRST. Once F-22 uses its radar, it will be picked up by passive sensors on the Su-30. If Su-30 uses its radar, it will be picked up by the passive sensors on the F-22. As mentioned before, AESA radar while it has its benefits, it has its drawbacks. On average, 10% of the AESA modules fail (this is by director of the Zhuk radars who studies all type of radars and I have read this in western publication as well) and while they are rated at 15W or 16W, they rarely operate at that power due to cooling issues and overall damages the electronics. Only for real situations that may call for it. But all in all, they may detect something as large as an Su-30SM at roughly 200 - 250km, which of course is greater range than the Bars-R could detect the stealth fighter at. But as you said, once the F-22 or F-35 does use its radar, then the Su-30SM will detect it. What would give the trump card to the F-22 or F-35 is if it is operating with various other jets that would be using their radars to detect the Su-30SM and passing off the information to the F-22's and F-35's. Of course, once that happens, other aircrafts from Russia's end will be used.

    that is why Stealth isn't as much as an emphasis anymore than it once was back in the 80's and 90's. Because new methods of detecting stealth is being used, and well, it is expensive as all hell too.

    But if what is said about the L-Band AESA elements used on the Su-57 are true (small antenna for IFF and larger antena for scanning the skies), then they are using UHF based tech for their jets to really put a stomp on low observable targets. But this was inevitable. I am far more surprised that this technology isn't being pushed on older jets to really give them a boost in fighting stealth. Su-30SM and even older Su-27's could very well use this technology.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2130
    Points : 2146
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:10 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:That was the other thing I was going to mention.  Is that if both sides are going to go without using their own radar, then they both would rely on something like IRST.  Once F-22 uses its radar, it will be picked up by passive sensors on the Su-30.  If Su-30 uses its radar, it will be picked up by the passive sensors on the F-22.  As mentioned before, AESA radar while it has its benefits, it has its drawbacks.  On average, 10% of the AESA modules fail (this is by director of the Zhuk radars who studies all type of radars and I have read this in western publication as well) and while they are rated at 15W or 16W, they rarely operate at that power due to cooling issues and overall damages the electronics.  Only for real situations that may call for it.  But all in all, they may detect something as large as an Su-30SM at roughly 200 - 250km, which of course is greater range than the Bars-R could detect the stealth fighter at.  But as you said, once the F-22 or F-35 does use its radar, then the Su-30SM will detect it.  What would give the trump card to the F-22 or F-35 is if it is operating with various other jets that would be using their radars to detect the Su-30SM and passing off the information to the F-22's and F-35's.  Of course, once that happens, other aircrafts from Russia's end will be used.

    that is why Stealth isn't as much as an emphasis anymore than it once was back in the 80's and 90's.  Because new methods of detecting stealth is being used, and well, it is expensive as all hell too.

    But if what is said about the L-Band AESA elements used on the Su-57 are true (small antenna for IFF and larger antena for scanning the skies), then they are using UHF based tech for their jets to really put a stomp on low observable targets.  But this was inevitable.  I am far more surprised that this technology isn't being pushed on older jets to really give them a boost in fighting stealth.  Su-30SM and even older Su-27's could very well use this technology.

    Or an F-22A from 200 km afar can switch on its radar, track and lock a Flanker, then datalink the data to Vipers or F-35s lurking at 80 or 100 km away, with all sensors switched off. Whatever the Flanker does vs. that F-22A will be irrelevant, as it will move away from anything the Flanker can throw at it.

    LO is not a bad thing to have. USAF has the edge here.

    The Su-30SM is useful to tackle 2nd tier NATO Air Forces or 3rd world countries. USAF in its entirety is in no way threatened by it, as it is basically an up-to-date Flanker and represents the same threat the Su-27 did in the late 90s and 00s. Nothing game changing as it was in the 80s or early 90s, just keeping up with the West in this decade.
    avatar
    ZoA

    Posts : 36
    Points : 42
    Join date : 2017-08-20

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  ZoA on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:14 pm

    It was always understood US claim of 0,0001 m^2 RCS for F-22 is pure fiction. Even if somehow miraculously they achieved such RCS in laboratory setting (they did not, but let's for fun imagine they did not outright fabricate that number) it would be impossible to maintain it in any kind of realistic scenario. RCS of an insect is typical quoted as being around 0,001, or an order of magnitude higher the claimed RCS of F-22, so if that plane collides with single insect during take-off it's RCS will increase by something like a factor of 10. Picking some dust during take-of, also forget abut claimed RCS. Some dirt footprints form pilot's boot when he climes on to plain , or maintenance personal leaves greasy fingerprinting or two on surface of F-22, again your RCS of 0,0001 goes back to la la land where it came form.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1505
    Points : 1505
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:15 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:That was the other thing I was going to mention.  Is that if both sides are going to go without using their own radar, then they both would rely on something like IRST.  Once F-22 uses its radar, it will be picked up by passive sensors on the Su-30.  If Su-30 uses its radar, it will be picked up by the passive sensors on the F-22.  As mentioned before, AESA radar while it has its benefits, it has its drawbacks.  On average, 10% of the AESA modules fail (this is by director of the Zhuk radars who studies all type of radars and I have read this in western publication as well) and while they are rated at 15W or 16W, they rarely operate at that power due to cooling issues and overall damages the electronics.  Only for real situations that may call for it.  But all in all, they may detect something as large as an Su-30SM at roughly 200 - 250km, which of course is greater range than the Bars-R could detect the stealth fighter at.  But as you said, once the F-22 or F-35 does use its radar, then the Su-30SM will detect it.  What would give the trump card to the F-22 or F-35 is if it is operating with various other jets that would be using their radars to detect the Su-30SM and passing off the information to the F-22's and F-35's.  Of course, once that happens, other aircrafts from Russia's end will be used.

    that is why Stealth isn't as much as an emphasis anymore than it once was back in the 80's and 90's.  Because new methods of detecting stealth is being used, and well, it is expensive as all hell too.

    But if what is said about the L-Band AESA elements used on the Su-57 are true (small antenna for IFF and larger antena for scanning the skies), then they are using UHF based tech for their jets to really put a stomp on low observable targets.  But this was inevitable.  I am far more surprised that this technology isn't being pushed on older jets to really give them a boost in fighting stealth.  Su-30SM and even older Su-27's could very well use this technology.

    Or an F-22A from 200 km afar can switch on its radar, track and lock a Flanker, then datalink the data to Vipers or F-35s lurking at 80 or 100 km away, with all sensors switched off. Whatever the Flanker does vs. that F-22A will be irrelevant, as it will move away from anything the Flanker can throw at it.

    LO is not a bad thing to have. USAF has the edge here.

    But by the time the information is sent, Su-30 will have picked up its location.  And if you think the Su-30 would be "alone" while the F-22 isn't, then you are only fooling yourself.  As one Russian general already said "we can put to test how "stealthy" your jets really are".  In other words, they are calling US bluff.  Seemed the US picked up on that after the fact that it started to use its F-15's instead as Medo pointed out.  Information picked up by Su-30 would have been valuable beyond measures anyway.

    This is why Russia is shoving new passive systems on their jets. The IRST alone is extremely useful, especially when a jet like F-22 heats up while flying. Lights up like a Christmas tree.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2130
    Points : 2146
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:18 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:That was the other thing I was going to mention.  Is that if both sides are going to go without using their own radar, then they both would rely on something like IRST.  Once F-22 uses its radar, it will be picked up by passive sensors on the Su-30.  If Su-30 uses its radar, it will be picked up by the passive sensors on the F-22.  As mentioned before, AESA radar while it has its benefits, it has its drawbacks.  On average, 10% of the AESA modules fail (this is by director of the Zhuk radars who studies all type of radars and I have read this in western publication as well) and while they are rated at 15W or 16W, they rarely operate at that power due to cooling issues and overall damages the electronics.  Only for real situations that may call for it.  But all in all, they may detect something as large as an Su-30SM at roughly 200 - 250km, which of course is greater range than the Bars-R could detect the stealth fighter at.  But as you said, once the F-22 or F-35 does use its radar, then the Su-30SM will detect it.  What would give the trump card to the F-22 or F-35 is if it is operating with various other jets that would be using their radars to detect the Su-30SM and passing off the information to the F-22's and F-35's.  Of course, once that happens, other aircrafts from Russia's end will be used.

    that is why Stealth isn't as much as an emphasis anymore than it once was back in the 80's and 90's.  Because new methods of detecting stealth is being used, and well, it is expensive as all hell too.

    But if what is said about the L-Band AESA elements used on the Su-57 are true (small antenna for IFF and larger antena for scanning the skies), then they are using UHF based tech for their jets to really put a stomp on low observable targets.  But this was inevitable.  I am far more surprised that this technology isn't being pushed on older jets to really give them a boost in fighting stealth.  Su-30SM and even older Su-27's could very well use this technology.

    Or an F-22A from 200 km afar can switch on its radar, track and lock a Flanker, then datalink the data to Vipers or F-35s lurking at 80 or 100 km away, with all sensors switched off. Whatever the Flanker does vs. that F-22A will be irrelevant, as it will move away from anything the Flanker can throw at it.

    LO is not a bad thing to have. USAF has the edge here.

    But by the time the information is sent, Su-30 will have picked up its location.  And if you think the Su-30 would be "alone" while the F-22 isn't, then you are only fooling yourself.  As one Russian general already said "we can put to test how "stealthy" your jets really are".  In other words, they are calling US bluff.  Seemed the US picked up on that after the fact that it started to use its F-15's instead as Medo pointed out.  Information picked up by Su-30 would have been valuable beyond measures anyway.

    Well currently the F-22A can't use its Link16 like that, but it will so in future. F-35s  can though.
    Picking up a LO aircraft at 150 or 200 km is as good at useless. They can try firing missiles against such a target, but it's a tough kill. Too far.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1505
    Points : 1505
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:20 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:That was the other thing I was going to mention.  Is that if both sides are going to go without using their own radar, then they both would rely on something like IRST.  Once F-22 uses its radar, it will be picked up by passive sensors on the Su-30.  If Su-30 uses its radar, it will be picked up by the passive sensors on the F-22.  As mentioned before, AESA radar while it has its benefits, it has its drawbacks.  On average, 10% of the AESA modules fail (this is by director of the Zhuk radars who studies all type of radars and I have read this in western publication as well) and while they are rated at 15W or 16W, they rarely operate at that power due to cooling issues and overall damages the electronics.  Only for real situations that may call for it.  But all in all, they may detect something as large as an Su-30SM at roughly 200 - 250km, which of course is greater range than the Bars-R could detect the stealth fighter at.  But as you said, once the F-22 or F-35 does use its radar, then the Su-30SM will detect it.  What would give the trump card to the F-22 or F-35 is if it is operating with various other jets that would be using their radars to detect the Su-30SM and passing off the information to the F-22's and F-35's.  Of course, once that happens, other aircrafts from Russia's end will be used.

    that is why Stealth isn't as much as an emphasis anymore than it once was back in the 80's and 90's.  Because new methods of detecting stealth is being used, and well, it is expensive as all hell too.

    But if what is said about the L-Band AESA elements used on the Su-57 are true (small antenna for IFF and larger antena for scanning the skies), then they are using UHF based tech for their jets to really put a stomp on low observable targets.  But this was inevitable.  I am far more surprised that this technology isn't being pushed on older jets to really give them a boost in fighting stealth.  Su-30SM and even older Su-27's could very well use this technology.

    Or an F-22A from 200 km afar can switch on its radar, track and lock a Flanker, then datalink the data to Vipers or F-35s lurking at 80 or 100 km away, with all sensors switched off. Whatever the Flanker does vs. that F-22A will be irrelevant, as it will move away from anything the Flanker can throw at it.

    LO is not a bad thing to have. USAF has the edge here.

    But by the time the information is sent, Su-30 will have picked up its location.  And if you think the Su-30 would be "alone" while the F-22 isn't, then you are only fooling yourself.  As one Russian general already said "we can put to test how "stealthy" your jets really are".  In other words, they are calling US bluff.  Seemed the US picked up on that after the fact that it started to use its F-15's instead as Medo pointed out.  Information picked up by Su-30 would have been valuable beyond measures anyway.

    Well currently the F-22A can't use its Link16 like that, but it will so in future. F-35s  can though.
    Picking up a LO aircraft at 150 or 200 km is as good at useless. They can try firing missiles against such a target, but it's a tough kill.

    And the same can be said about firing a missile against a target that is using heavy EW.  We can go back and fourth all day, but the "stealth" doctrine isn't shining so well anymore, hence why US is going back to the concept of Speed being important factor.  If you think you cannot pick up a target at 150 to 200 KM that is so called "stealth" but they do so using IRST and passive sensors, then you are only fooling yourself and not convincing anyone.  Medo already pointed that one out on how they can do so.

    What proves you wrong, is the fact that the F-22 was picked up at greater ranges than they would have "proclaimed" needed.  And now, they have moved onto using their older jets.  I wonder why? Because the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Another great thing, is that as something is releasing any kind of signal, it is a form of radiation. It will be picked up.

    May I bring your attention to the RQ-170 incident?
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2130
    Points : 2146
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:26 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    And the same can be said about firing a missile against a target that is using heavy EW.  We can go back and fourth all day, but the "stealth" doctrine isn't shining so well anymore, hence why US is going back to the concept of Speed being important factor.  If you think you cannot pick up a target at 150 to 200 KM that is so called "stealth" but they do so using IRST and passive sensors, then you are only fooling yourself and not convincing anyone.  Medo already pointed that one out on how they can do so.

    What proves you wrong, is the fact that the F-22 was picked up at greater ranges than they would have "proclaimed" needed.  And now, they have moved onto using their older jets.  I wonder why? Because the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

    They can pickup an F-22 or an F-15 at 150 km afar, sure. But launching a missile (say an R-27, any model) at it is a very tough to impossible kill. It's as good as nothing, given the targeted plane will evade the missile by simply flying further away.

    Meantime platforms within the Flanker threat zone can launch at it without even switching on their radar or IRST.

    so my point is this:
    LO brings game-changing potential in tactics implementation and flexibility, not performance per se.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1505
    Points : 1505
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    And the same can be said about firing a missile against a target that is using heavy EW.  We can go back and fourth all day, but the "stealth" doctrine isn't shining so well anymore, hence why US is going back to the concept of Speed being important factor.  If you think you cannot pick up a target at 150 to 200 KM that is so called "stealth" but they do so using IRST and passive sensors, then you are only fooling yourself and not convincing anyone.  Medo already pointed that one out on how they can do so.

    What proves you wrong, is the fact that the F-22 was picked up at greater ranges than they would have "proclaimed" needed.  And now, they have moved onto using their older jets.  I wonder why? Because the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

    They can pickup an F-22 or an F-15 at 150 km afar, sure. But launching a missile at it is a very tough to impossible kill. It's as good as nothing, given the targeted plane will evade the missile by simply flying further away.

    Meantime platforms within the Flanker threat zone can launch at it without even switching on their radar or IRST.

    So you are saying they can launch without any means of targeting? No, that isn't how it works.  Never has either.  If an F-22 or F-35 decides to pick up the Su-30SM, it would be able to launch its missile at it due to its passive sensors picking it up.  Medo explained this already.  You assume that somehow the US weapon is some magic weapon that always hits on target at full range but somehow, the Russian one cant (especially if it would be using non radar based missile as Medo pointed out).  But lets be real here, that isn't how it would work.  As mentioned, see how great the Vunderweapon of the US worked against an old Su-22.

    I mean, if they want to "blindly" fire their missiles at Su-30's or in "general direction" of it, that would also give their positions away. Add to that, these missiles would light up on the Sukhois EW/ECM/ECCM systems. Just like it would on the F-22 and F-35.

    Christ almighty, this will go on forever.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:15 am