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    Su-30 for Russian air force

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    AJ-47
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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  AJ-47 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 am


    The only one seater Su-30 as that short lived designation for Indonesia; that is long dead, since Indonesia now actually operates Su-27 and real Su-30.
    Su-30SM ( I think you meant) is basically the Irkut Su-30 for the Russian air force.
    Su-34 is a much heavier Flanker modification, built @ NAPO. It is much more specialized for the ground attack role.

    So all the SU-30 are 2 seater, and they are multiroll aircraft, while the SU-34 is more like a light bomber for deep penetration? Is there one for air superiority mission?

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:30 am

    AJ-47 wrote:
    The only one seater Su-30 as that short lived designation for Indonesia; that is long dead, since Indonesia now actually operates Su-27 and real Su-30.
    Su-30SM ( I think you meant) is basically the Irkut Su-30 for the Russian air force.
    Su-34 is a much heavier Flanker modification, built @ NAPO. It is much more specialized for the ground attack role.

    So all the SU-30 are 2 seater, and they are multiroll aircraft, while the SU-34 is more like a light bomber for deep penetration? Is there one for air superiority mission?

    Well, at this point even the Air Superiority Su-35 is certainly very proficient at ground attack, so hard to find a specialized one. Su-34 itself can carry radar guided A2A missiles.
    Su-30 started as sort of airborne command aircraft based on Su-27UB, later Sukhoi turned into multirole aircraft for export.
    Su-34 was specialized Su-24 replacement from the start.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:34 am

    AJ-47 wrote:
    The IAF is now focused on converting all their SU 30 MKI to Super Sukhois ( SU 30 MKI MK3) . The estimated price is $57 million per aircraft . However , there is also a theory that if produced in India the cost will jack up . IAF is not disclosing exactly how much is being paid for the SU 30 MKI purchased from HAL . However , informed sources place it at $51 million ( not to be mistaken with the Knocked Down Units). CAG's estimates taking into account cost over runs place the cost close at $95 million.

    How did you come to these big numbers? You said to build the SU-3-MKI in India is $22.5 million, and to upgrade them to the Super Sukoi will cost about $9.0 million.
    I don't understand the Math.

    Between 1996 and 2006 , there were 5 MoUs signed between India and Russia for the supply of the Su 30 ( and later the SU 30 MKI ) . In an interview to Financial Express in 2001 , the then HAL chairman stated that Indian built Su 30 ( again not the SU 30 MKI ) will cost $22.5 million ( at the then exchange rate between Rupee and US Dollar) . The cost of designing the SU 30 MKI by HAL is close to $51 million . However, according to Comptroller & Auditor General (CAG) the actual cost is $95 million .

    The upgradation to Super Sukhois ( or SU 30 MKI MK3 ) is a completely different program . The current cost of upgrade (at 2010 prices) is believed to be $ 57 million AND this will not happen in India in the near future .

    India no longer flies the SU 30 , as they have all been converted to SU 30 MKI . The SU 30 MKI is a twin engine aircraft. They have always been two seaters. The SU 30 ( Flanker C ) has also been a two seater aircraft.

    SU 30 MS ??? Are you referring to the SU 30 SM ?

    The SU 34 you can say is a 3in 1 aircraft .

    The Su-34 is a unique machine, designed as a bomber to deliver strikes to both ground and naval targets, as a fighter to gain air supremacy and as a reconnaissance aircraft. It has a broad lineup of armaments, including air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. The Su-34 is equipped with advanced avionics, a multi-purpose long-range radar unit and an integrated electronic warfare suite. Furthermore, the machine has an in-flight refuelling capability and can carry additional fuel tanks, which increases its range markedly. The new fighter-bomber has certain other distinct features: for instance, it carries precious munitions with in-flight guidance systems capable of hitting subscale targets.the Su-34 is capable of engaging multiple targets at a time, and its excellent aerodynamics, large fuel tanks and highly efficient double-flow engines with digital controls, in-flight refuelling capability and ability to carry additional fuel tanks effectively increase its flight range almost to match that of long-range strategic bombers. In addition, it is planned to enhance the combat strength of the aircraft currently in production by increasing its air-delivered ordnance, which might include a long-range missile.

    Compared with American peers, the Su-34 has, on its own, the combined capability of several individual aircraft – the E-111 bomber, the F-15 fighter, the F-15E fighter-bomber and the A-10 strike-fighter. But the most outstanding feature of the new two-seat attack fighter is that, unlike its counterparts, it can remain airborne for up to 10-16 hours, which is essential for a plane supporting mobile forces that can be deployed fast in any part of the country.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:55 am

    The Su-34 certainly has significant air to air capability, but its primary role is low and fast deep penetration of enemy air defences to strike enemy targets in their deep rear.

    On paper you could fit it with RVV-BD missiles and it would be an F-111/F-14/F-15C/F-15E aircraft... in fact add EF-18 Growler and the jammer version of the F-111 (in addition to the deep strike model), but in practical terms its focus will be deep strike and SEAD and Jammer type missions.

    With the focus on BVR combat any aircraft can be a fighter as long as it carries a decent radar and ARH AAM, so the manouver capability is less important as height and speed at launch... a high flying high speed aircraft gives its missile more energy than a low flying slow aircraft.

    Most of the time the Su-34 will be low and fast, though for SEAD missions it could certainly operate at higher altitudes and speeds.

    Most of the time the weapons on the Su-34 will be air to ground weapons, though it will certainly carry self defence missiles like RVV-SD, and of course the combination of helmet mounted sight and high off bore sight IR guided missiles means that the Su-34 doesn't need to turn a burn with an opponent... he can look, lock and fire a missile and then run because his job is not to clear the skies, but to hit ground targets.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  AJ-47 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:43 pm

    HAL chairman stated that Indian built Su 30 ( again not the SU 30 MKI ) will cost $22.5 million ( at the then exchange rate between Rupee and US Dollar) . The cost of designing the SU 30 MKI by HAL is close to $51 million.
    What’s the main difference between the SU-30 and the SU-30MKI, is it only avionic that make this higher price?

    There are 2 numbers for manufacture a plan, one is the cost to build it, and the second is the cost to build the plan and the cost of R&D. For example, the price to build the F-22 is $150 million, but if you add the R&D into, the price will jump to $350 million.
    Is this explaining the difference on the SU-30MKI numbers?

    Last question, if Israel want to buy the SU-30MK half “naked” it’s mean without any avionic into it, as they will put there stuff in the plan, and let say 24 plans, can you have any price figure?
    An interesting piece of avionic "Large Screen Display" you can see on the link below:
    http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=472&ArticleID=562


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:56 pm

    AJ-47 wrote:
    HAL chairman stated that Indian built Su 30 ( again not the SU 30 MKI ) will cost $22.5 million ( at the then exchange rate between Rupee and US Dollar) . The cost of designing the SU 30 MKI by HAL is close to $51 million.
    What’s the main difference between the SU-30 and the SU-30MKI, is it only avionic that make this higher price?

    There are 2 numbers for manufacture a plan, one is the cost to build it, and the second is the cost to build the plan and the cost of R&D. For example, the price to build the F-22 is $150 million, but if you add the R&D into, the price will jump to $350 million.
    Is this explaining the difference on the SU-30MKI numbers?

    Last question, if Israel want to buy the SU-30MK half “naked” it’s mean without any avionic into it, as they will put there stuff in the plan, and let say 24 plans, can you have any price figure?
    An interesting piece of avionic "Large Screen Display" you can see on the link below:
    http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=472&ArticleID=562



    Initially the Indian Air Force had decided that the SU 30 MKI would just be an upgrade of the Su 30 . However, the significant differences meant that the only viable option was to replace the aircraft completely. New build MKIs were supplied to replace them.

    The SU 30 MKI is a generation ahead of the SU 30 . Russia had made an offer last year to sell SU 30 to Belarus at $15 million a pop.

    Compared to the Su 30 the SU 30 MKI has a higher percentage of composites that has been used in the airframe. The wing of the SU 30 MKI is newly developed with increased relative thickness, accommodating a larger amount of fuel. The wing will have high-lift devices featured as deflecting leading edges and flaperons acting the flaps and ailerons. At subsonic flights, the wing profile curvature is changed by a remote control system which deflects the leading edges and flaperons versus the AoA. The SU 30 MKI has no AoA limitations.

    The Su-30MKI has a reinforced airframe in order to accommodate a weapons load of 17,650 lb compared with half that for the Su-30, and the maximum takeoff weight is 38,800 kg versus 34,500 kg for the SU 30.

    An extensive use of Thales Avionics components have been made in the cockpit of the Su 30 MKI .The FBW of the SU 30 MKI is based on a stall warning and barrier mechanism with an individual drive of its own.South Africa 's Aerospace Monitoring And Systems provides predictive maintenance capability solutions in the Su 30 MKI.

    The SU 30 is powered by the AL 31 F engines whereas the Su 30 MKI is powered by the Al 31FP engines which are 110Kg heavier and 0.4 m longer than the AL-31F, while the thrust remains the same.The TVC nozzles of the SU 30 MKI are made of titanium to reduce the nozzle's weight and they can deflect together or differentially to achieve the desired thrust vector for a particular maneuver. The infrared signature for thrust settings below afterburner is significantly lower in the SU 30 MKI compared to the SU 30.

    I doubt Israel can buy any aircraft "without any avionics". Apart from the radar , avionics would consist of LITENING targeting pod , Laser-optical locator system and Electronic countermeasures . The cost of a modern US AESA radar would be between $2.75 million - $ 3.25 million . Electronic warfare systems are in the price range of $ 3 - $3.5 million , in the US ( under the FMS route ) . So Israel can probably look at a price tag of $ 43 - $45 million ( total life cycle cost excluded ) for a SU 30 MKI .

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:45 pm

    AJ-47 wrote:
    HAL chairman stated that Indian built Su 30 ( again not the SU 30 MKI ) will cost $22.5 million ( at the then exchange rate between Rupee and US Dollar) . The cost of designing the SU 30 MKI by HAL is close to $51 million.
    What’s the main difference between the SU-30 and the SU-30MKI, is it only avionic that make this higher price?

    There are 2 numbers for manufacture a plan, one is the cost to build it, and the second is the cost to build the plan and the cost of R&D. For example, the price to build the F-22 is $150 million, but if you add the R&D into, the price will jump to $350 million.
    Is this explaining the difference on the SU-30MKI numbers?

    Last question, if Israel want to buy the SU-30MK half “naked” it’s mean without any avionic into it, as they will put there stuff in the plan, and let say 24 plans, can you have any price figure?
    An interesting piece of avionic "Large Screen Display" you can see on the link below:
    http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=472&ArticleID=562


    Which Su-30 you talking about? It is not really produced anymore, since it was basically a Su-27UB turned into PVO fighter.

    There is "original Su-30".
    More recently, there are the Knaapo Su-30MK and MKK variants, while Irkut has built the Su-30MKI/MKM/etc series.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:49 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    AJ-47 wrote:
    HAL chairman stated that Indian built Su 30 ( again not the SU 30 MKI ) will cost $22.5 million ( at the then exchange rate between Rupee and US Dollar) . The cost of designing the SU 30 MKI by HAL is close to $51 million.
    What’s the main difference between the SU-30 and the SU-30MKI, is it only avionic that make this higher price?

    There are 2 numbers for manufacture a plan, one is the cost to build it, and the second is the cost to build the plan and the cost of R&D. For example, the price to build the F-22 is $150 million, but if you add the R&D into, the price will jump to $350 million.
    Is this explaining the difference on the SU-30MKI numbers?

    Last question, if Israel want to buy the SU-30MK half “naked” it’s mean without any avionic into it, as they will put there stuff in the plan, and let say 24 plans, can you have any price figure?
    An interesting piece of avionic "Large Screen Display" you can see on the link below:
    http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=472&ArticleID=562



    Initially the Indian Air Force had decided that the SU 30 MKI would just be an upgrade of the Su 30 . However, the significant differences meant that the only viable option was to replace the aircraft completely. New build MKIs were supplied to replace them.

    The SU 30 MKI is a generation ahead of the SU 30 . Russia had made an offer last year to sell SU 30 to Belarus at $15 million a pop.

    Compared to the Su 30 the SU 30 MKI has a higher percentage of composites that has been used in the airframe. The wing of the SU 30 MKI is newly developed with increased relative thickness, accommodating a larger amount of fuel. The wing will have high-lift devices featured as deflecting leading edges and flaperons acting the flaps and ailerons. At subsonic flights, the wing profile curvature is changed by a remote control system which deflects the leading edges and flaperons versus the AoA. The SU 30 MKI has no AoA limitations.

    The Su-30MKI has a reinforced airframe in order to accommodate a weapons load of 17,650 lb compared with half that for the Su-30, and the maximum takeoff weight is 38,800 kg versus 34,500 kg for the SU 30.

    An extensive use of Thales Avionics components have been made in the cockpit of the Su 30 MKI .The FBW of the SU 30 MKI is based on a stall warning and barrier mechanism with an individual drive of its own.South Africa 's Aerospace Monitoring And Systems provides predictive maintenance capability solutions in the Su 30 MKI.

    The SU 30 is powered by the AL 31 F engines whereas the Su 30 MKI is powered by the Al 31FP engines which are 110Kg heavier and 0.4 m longer than the AL-31F, while the thrust remains the same.The TVC nozzles of the SU 30 MKI are made of titanium to reduce the nozzle's weight and they can deflect together or differentially to achieve the desired thrust vector for a particular maneuver. The infrared signature for thrust settings below afterburner is significantly lower in the SU 30 MKI compared to the SU 30.

    I doubt Israel can buy any aircraft "without any avionics". Apart from the radar , avionics would consist of LITENING targeting pod , Laser-optical locator system and Electronic countermeasures . The cost of a modern US AESA radar would be between $2.75 million - $ 3.25 million . Electronic warfare systems are in the price range of $ 3 - $3.5 million , in the US ( under the FMS route ) . So Israel can probably look at a price tag of $ 43 - $45 million ( total life cycle cost excluded ) for a SU 30 MKI .

    Sujoy, be carefull with using the Belraus figure as indicative of anything:
    1.) The airframes in question are used
    2.) Belarus gets everything from Russia at "subsidized" prices.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  AJ-47 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:09 pm

    I doubt Israel can buy any aircraft "without any avionics". Apart from the radar , avionics would consist of LITENING targeting pod , Laser-optical locator system and Electronic countermeasures . The cost of a modern US AESA radar would be between $2.75 million - $ 3.25 million . Electronic warfare systems are in the price range of $ 3 - $3.5 million , in the US ( under the FMS route ) . So Israel can probably look at a price tag of $ 43 - $45 million ( total life cycle cost excluded ) for a SU 30 MKI.
    That's funny. Israel is the developer and the manufacture of the LITENING pod. All the rest of the equipment that you mention can be manufacture in Israel, or as you said, can be bought from the US. So without these Israel can buy it for about $35 million.
    Thank you very much for the answers and your knowledge is much appreciated.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  AJ-47 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:15 pm

    Which Su-30 you talking about? It is not really produced anymore, since it was basically a Su-27UB turned into PVO fighter.

    There is "original Su-30".
    More recently, there are the Knaapo Su-30MK and MKK variants, while Irkut has built the Su-30MKI/MKM/etc series.
    I didn't know the different between the plans, but for sure I'm talking about the SU-30MKI.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:31 pm

    AJ-47 wrote:
    Which Su-30 you talking about? It is not really produced anymore, since it was basically a Su-27UB turned into PVO fighter.

    There is "original Su-30".
    More recently, there are the Knaapo Su-30MK and MKK variants, while Irkut has built the Su-30MKI/MKM/etc series.
    I didn't know the different between the plans, but for sure I'm talking about the SU-30MKI.

    Ok, that is indeed the "Irkut" Su-30, and generally the more expensive one.
    Used as the basis for the MKA, MKM, SM, etc.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:06 pm

    AJ-47 wrote:
    I doubt Israel can buy any aircraft "without any avionics". Apart from the radar , avionics would consist of LITENING targeting pod , Laser-optical locator system and Electronic countermeasures . The cost of a modern US AESA radar would be between $2.75 million - $ 3.25 million . Electronic warfare systems are in the price range of $ 3 - $3.5 million , in the US ( under the FMS route ) . So Israel can probably look at a price tag of $ 43 - $45 million ( total life cycle cost excluded ) for a SU 30 MKI.
    That's funny. Israel is the developer and the manufacture of the LITENING pod. All the rest of the equipment that you mention can be manufacture in Israel, or as you said, can be bought from the US. So without these Israel can buy it for about $35 million.
    Thank you very much for the answers and your knowledge is much appreciated.

    A lot of countries are developing LITENING pods indigenously . Israel did develop the Sharpshooter LITENING targeting pod for it's F 15 I . However , they were less capable than the LANTRIN pods . SO Israel replaced their Sharpshooter LITENING targeting pod with the LANTRIN pods .

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:15 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:
    AJ-47 wrote:
    HAL chairman stated that Indian built Su 30 ( again not the SU 30 MKI ) will cost $22.5 million ( at the then exchange rate between Rupee and US Dollar) . The cost of designing the SU 30 MKI by HAL is close to $51 million.
    What’s the main difference between the SU-30 and the SU-30MKI, is it only avionic that make this higher price?

    There are 2 numbers for manufacture a plan, one is the cost to build it, and the second is the cost to build the plan and the cost of R&D. For example, the price to build the F-22 is $150 million, but if you add the R&D into, the price will jump to $350 million.
    Is this explaining the difference on the SU-30MKI numbers?

    Last question, if Israel want to buy the SU-30MK half “naked” it’s mean without any avionic into it, as they will put there stuff in the plan, and let say 24 plans, can you have any price figure?
    An interesting piece of avionic "Large Screen Display" you can see on the link below:
    http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=472&ArticleID=562



    Initially the Indian Air Force had decided that the SU 30 MKI would just be an upgrade of the Su 30 . However, the significant differences meant that the only viable option was to replace the aircraft completely. New build MKIs were supplied to replace them.

    The SU 30 MKI is a generation ahead of the SU 30 . Russia had made an offer last year to sell SU 30 to Belarus at $15 million a pop.

    Compared to the Su 30 the SU 30 MKI has a higher percentage of composites that has been used in the airframe. The wing of the SU 30 MKI is newly developed with increased relative thickness, accommodating a larger amount of fuel. The wing will have high-lift devices featured as deflecting leading edges and flaperons acting the flaps and ailerons. At subsonic flights, the wing profile curvature is changed by a remote control system which deflects the leading edges and flaperons versus the AoA. The SU 30 MKI has no AoA limitations.

    The Su-30MKI has a reinforced airframe in order to accommodate a weapons load of 17,650 lb compared with half that for the Su-30, and the maximum takeoff weight is 38,800 kg versus 34,500 kg for the SU 30.

    An extensive use of Thales Avionics components have been made in the cockpit of the Su 30 MKI .The FBW of the SU 30 MKI is based on a stall warning and barrier mechanism with an individual drive of its own.South Africa 's Aerospace Monitoring And Systems provides predictive maintenance capability solutions in the Su 30 MKI.

    The SU 30 is powered by the AL 31 F engines whereas the Su 30 MKI is powered by the Al 31FP engines which are 110Kg heavier and 0.4 m longer than the AL-31F, while the thrust remains the same.The TVC nozzles of the SU 30 MKI are made of titanium to reduce the nozzle's weight and they can deflect together or differentially to achieve the desired thrust vector for a particular maneuver. The infrared signature for thrust settings below afterburner is significantly lower in the SU 30 MKI compared to the SU 30.

    I doubt Israel can buy any aircraft "without any avionics". Apart from the radar , avionics would consist of LITENING targeting pod , Laser-optical locator system and Electronic countermeasures . The cost of a modern US AESA radar would be between $2.75 million - $ 3.25 million . Electronic warfare systems are in the price range of $ 3 - $3.5 million , in the US ( under the FMS route ) . So Israel can probably look at a price tag of $ 43 - $45 million ( total life cycle cost excluded ) for a SU 30 MKI .

    Sujoy, be carefull with using the Belraus figure as indicative of anything:
    1.) The airframes in question are used

    2.) Belarus gets everything from Russia at "subsidized" prices.


    Only for the ones sold to Indonesia and China . The SU 30 MKI , SU 30 MKM have much of their technology derived from the SU 37 .The basic aerodynamic design and much of the structural design remains the same but important aerodynamic enhancements and completely new engines and digital systems have been incorporated.

    Not indicating anything with this figure but that's the last know price tag of the SU 30 . All other countries are purchasing the advanced variants of the SU 30 .

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  TR1 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:10 am

    Vietnam, Venezuela and Sudan also bought the Knaapo Su-30MK.

    Also I would more say the Su-35 program- Su-37 was short lived and really just added thrust vectoring.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian air force

    Post  AJ-47 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:11 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    A lot of countries are developing LITENING pods indigenously . Israel did develop the Sharpshooter LITENING targeting pod for it's F 15 I . However , they were less capable than the LANTRIN pods . SO Israel replaced their Sharpshooter LITENING targeting pod with the LANTRIN pods
    Not a lot of countries just a few. Israel sold more then 1,000 Litening pods, and now they working with Northrop to develop the Litening AT.
    As far as I know the Litening is consist of navigation and targeting system "all in one".
    The Thales Damocles, that India and russia bought has targeting and navigation system in the same pod. Rafael was in this bid too, but the French win.

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