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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

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    SOC
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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  SOC on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:23 am

    I would also expect they will be used as lead in fighter trainers for the PAK FA pilots


    I had this thought, but I wouldn't be suprised if they followed the USAF model instead. We (and this admittedly works for us given the number of airframes we've got to mess with) take a pilot, put him/her into training. After basic flight school, you're going either into the fighter/bomber track, which means off to T-38s, or the heavy track, which means off to I forget what. Once you finish advanced flight training, your first assignment is to a training unit. For the F-22, for example, you go to Tyndall AFB. There your sole job is to learn how to fly and fight the Raptor. After that, it's off to an oeprational unit. If you change airframes, you merely go to that jet's training unit. My dad did this when he went from F-4s to A-10s; he went for a few months to the A-10 training unit at Davis-Monthan before ending up at RAF Alconbury.

    If you don't have the airframes to do that, the simplest solution is what the F-117s did. They had three squadrons, one of which was the training squadron. You got assigned there first to learn the jet, then off to one of the two operational squadrons.

    I haven't paid much attention to the ORBAT of the RusAF recently, but I think they do something similar to the first, except they consolidate training for multiple types at one location.

    And I think the MiG-29 was compatible with the R-27T and R-27P, they just weren't employed often.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:15 pm

    And I think the MiG-29 was compatible with the R-27T and R-27P, they just weren't employed often.

    No, the early Soviet and Warsaw Pact Mig-29s and the monkey model export mig-29s were not compatible with the T, P or R models.

    One of the features of the Mig-29S was that it added R-27ER and R-27T and R-27ET missiles to the types that could be carried. Previous models could only carry R-27R, and R-60M and R-73 when the latter became available.

    Less sure about the secretive P model, the R-27P might have been an option but the R-27EP would have stood out with its larger rocket motor...

    If the Su-30SM is being bought as a cheap numbers aircraft and trainer then it would be no surprise that they would spend money buying lots of airframes... that would be the point of the cheaper aircraft.

    You don't get something for nothing of course... they will be less capable than the Su-35s.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:14 am

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/12/19/su30sm/

    Another 30 Su-30SM ordered.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:17 am

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/12/19/su30sm/

    Russian MoD sign a contract with Irkut to buy second batch of 30 Su-30SM, so now they have 60 Su-30SM on order. So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:47 pm

    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:04 am

    GarryB wrote:
    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.

    well i guess that from all new types, su-35, su-30, su-34 some will go in Liptsek main training base. Dont forget that for su-34 the order is 124, and zelin said number could reach 140.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:39 am

    TR1 wrote:http://lenta.ru/news/2012/12/19/su30sm/

    Another 30 Su-30SM ordered.

    While we are awaiting new orders for MIG-35/M2 here we go out of nowhere 60 brand new Su-30SM.

    I guess this is not the last of the shock we will see in coming years Very Happy

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:41 am

    I suspect this may not be all as well - for VVS...not to speak of Navy, which is supposed to get some as well (though basing aircraft in Ukraine is becoming increasingly difficult).

    What will be very interesting is how many birds can Irkut deliver before 2016 is up.
    If all 60....MOD will go for more I think.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:58 am

    Of course one could also look deeper into this and say that the Su-30SM is a more expensive aircraft than an Su-27SM, which suggests the VVS is interested in capability rather than focussing on just price.

    This bodes well for the decision as to whether they go for Mig-29M2 or Mig-35 options... the latter both more capable, but also more expensive.

    To be honest I am totally biased, but think that the best replacement for a Mig-29 unit is a Mig-35 unit and that a mix of single and two seat Mig-35s will be much more useful than an all Flanker fleet.

    Besides all those MIG factories and contractors that are basically just eeking a living on the Mig-29K production orders would be more effciently used producing Mig-35s... which should lead to expertise that could eventually result in a light 5th gen fighter for Russia. There is lots of talk of 6th gen fighters being unmanned, but until they enter service I think Russia should be looking at manned cheaper lighter stealth fighters to get numbers.

    It is a myth that the range and carrying capacity of an Su-35 allows it to do the work of two Mig-35 because one Flanker can only ever be in one place at one time, while two Migs can operate as a loose pair that cover each other and share data etc etc.

    I would think the Su-30SM would be a much more suitable replacement for Su-24s in naval service than a modified Su-34.

    In fact the Su-30SM would be a replacement for the Su-24 and the Su-27 as a sort of F-18 that replaces the Intruders and Tomcats, except in this case there is no reason why with a big radar and RVV-BD missiles that the Su-30SM could not be very much like an F-14D as an interceptor.

    Introduction of the Su-30SM as a naval Su-24 replacement would relieve pressure on Su-34 production which would then just need to replace a portion of land based Su-24s.

    Lets face it the Su-34 is a far more capable bomber than the Su-24 and with Tu-22M3M and Tu-160M and Tu-95MSM there will be no shortage of deep strike capacity for the Russian military.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  AJ-47 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.

    The SU-30SM looks to me as a perfect multirole fighter like the F-4 in the old days, and should have a place by itself.
    About the numbers, maybe it’s only the 2nd batch, and the 3rd batch might be for 36 fighters.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Shadåw on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.
    Hm...only logical thing would be be this.



    60 - 12 = 48 so 48 for the Russian Air Force and 12 for the Russian Black Sea fleet? <rubs head> but it says its specifically for the Russian Air Force, so yeah odd number indeed, time will show in that regard when the deliveries will begin.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:25 am

    Well perhaps they break the numbers down this way... 48 aircraft for one unit to replace the Su-27s, and the 12 remaining aircraft are split into three units for training the pilots for the Su-35s they are going to be receiving shortly...


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:26 am

    GarryB wrote:Well perhaps they break the numbers down this way... 48 aircraft for one unit to replace the Su-27s, and the 12 remaining aircraft are split into three units for training the pilots for the Su-35s they are going to be receiving shortly...

    That is how I see it.

    However, the separate orders for 30 (as opposed to 24) is weird.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:41 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/12/21/vvo/

    Eastern military district in 2012 receive 10 Su-30 and Su-25 SM. Any informations how many Su-30 they got and which version? Irkut build 2 Su-30SM, but I doubt they go to eastern military district. KNAAPO build more Su-30M2 for RuAF?

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:21 pm

    Journalists being dumb.
    4 Su-30M2 were built, no more.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:13 am

    However, the separate orders for 30 (as opposed to 24) is weird.

    Orders of 30 could mean one unit getting 24 aircraft and two other units getting operational trainers (three each).


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:44 am

    There was a report a few months back about plans to form a Su-30SM unit in the Far East.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Shadåw on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:56 pm

    Found this on youtube its about the Su-30SM`s recently entering service among other things and features filming of the aircraft including some closeups.

    Channel TVC did the news report.


    Su-30SM - news report

    I found one more now with fotage from inside the /factory/

    Su-30SM and others?

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:02 am

    According to this Izvestia report, the Su-30SM's are definately planned as trainers.

    With everyone focusing on the flashy stuff like the Pak Fa and Su-35, the main workhorse of the fighter fleet, the Su-27UB has been forgotten it seems. With increased tempo of flight training in the past few years, the Su-27UB's are being worked to death. The resources of most of them run out by 2014. In the article it's being suggested that they have 2 options to avoid a crisis next year:

    1. High priority overhaul program of the UB's
    2. A new order of "dumbed down" Su-30's which would be pure trainers without all the combat systems (to speed up production)

    Arrow http://izvestia.ru/news/543881

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:03 am

    Izvestia.

    That article is full of innacuracies.

    Guys, stop reading anything off that site.

    From a person more knowledgeable than me:

    "КарКарыч:

    Ссылку бы на оригинал статьи и автора узнать.
    1. Тренировочные(самостоятельные) полёты выполняются на боевых самолетах, а на спарах -вывозные и контрольные.
    2.В ВВС РФ только ОДНА учебная эскадрилья Су-27, в училище. Мож я где-то прохлопал и успели организовать ещё одну учебную?
    3.Ну и 70% налёта на "спарке" даже обсуждать не интересно, просто бред.
    Хотя сама тема дефицита "спарок" всех типов, не только Су-27, стара как ВВС. Их не хватает всегда."


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:31 am

    I know that Izvestia over dramatises things (check out the titles of their articles Rolling Eyes ) but maybe the gist of the report, about a shortage of trainers is on the ball.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:12 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:According to this Izvestia report, the Su-30SM's are definately planned as trainers.

    With everyone focusing on the flashy stuff like the Pak Fa and Su-35, the main workhorse of the fighter fleet, the Su-27UB has been forgotten it seems. With increased tempo of flight training in the past few years, the Su-27UB's are being worked to death. The resources of most of them run out by 2014. In the article it's being suggested that they have 2 options to avoid a crisis next year:

    1. High priority overhaul program of the UB's
    2. A new order of "dumbed down" Su-30's which would be pure trainers without all the combat systems (to speed up production)

    Arrow http://izvestia.ru/news/543881

    If they need new trainers to replace Su-27UB, than Su-30M2 could be just fine for that job. Su-30SM will be better used if used like F-15E.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:19 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:I know that Izvestia over dramatises things (check out the titles of their articles Rolling Eyes ) but maybe the gist of the report, about a shortage of trainers is on the ball.

    It is generally true- two seaters are in heavy demand across EVERY type in service, but I think the specifics of airframe life is where Izvestya is going from reporting to hysteria.

    Generally, that seems to be their priority these days though.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:16 pm

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/471136.html

    Somewhat of a first- HAL got a contract from Irkut for RC1 and RC2 processors for the Bard radar- for RuAF Su-30SMs by the look of it.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:25 am

    Whats the story with those expensive chips?

    Russia makes them too.

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