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    Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

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    medo
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    Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:40 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/04/04/gepard/

    New frigate of Gepard class Dagestan was put in water. It will serve in Caspian sea.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:40 am

    I was going to comment on the old systems like SA-N-4 OSA and 76.2mm gun, but I guess for the Caspian Sea this is fine.

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    Russia floats out new missile frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:57 am


    Russia floats out new missile frigate for Caspian Sea

    16:15 04/04/

    Shipbuilders in Russia's republic of Tatarstan floated out a second Gepard class frigate for the Russian Navy, the Zelenodolsk Shipyard said on Monday.

    The Dagestan frigate is expected to join the Caspian Flotilla in 2011 after a series of sea trials.

    The first Gepard class frigate in the Russian Navy, the Tatarstan, has been serving as the flagship of the Caspian Flotilla since 2002.

    "The Dagestan is equipped with better electronics and weaponry compared with the Tatarstan," the shipyard said in a statement.

    A Gepard class frigate is designed to engage surface ships, submarines and air targets, both independently and as part of a task force, as well as to perform escort and patrol tasks.

    The ship has a displacement of 2,000 tons, a length of 102 meters, a maximum speed of 23 knots, a crew of 103 personnel and a cruising range of 5,000 miles.

    The frigate is armed with the Uran-E anti-ship missile system, a 76.2-mm gun mount AK-176M, a Palma air defense artillery system, two 30-mm gun mounts AK-630M, and 533-mm torpedo tubes. It can carry a Ka-28 or a Ka-31 Helix naval helicopter.

    KAZAN, April 4 (RIA Novosti)

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110404/163366524.html

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 05, 2011 9:32 am

    Caspian Flotilla 2020 will receive 16 new warships - the commander in chief of the Russian Navy

    Astrakhan, May 4. (ARMS-TASS). Caspian Flotilla 2020, will receive 16 new warships. About it, ITAR-TASS, said the commander in chief of the Russian Navy Vladimir Vysotsky.

    In the future, on the Caspian Sea will form the new coastal missile units and air groups at the expense of Command South, said at a meeting of Vysotsky Maritime Collegium of the Russian government.

    "Caspian Flotilla will receive by 2020 at least 16 units only at the ship's structure" - said the commander in chief. In particular, this year its membership enlarged with two new missile boats - Tatarstan and Volgodonsk, and three landing ships.

    Navy plans to increase the length of the berths in Makhachkala, which will have a fleet of two compounds, based in Astrakhan and Makhachkala, said Vysotsky.

    According to him, the fleet is fully ensures the safety and economic activity of domestic companies in the Caspian Sea, this situation will continue.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 05, 2011 9:33 am

    Waste of money if you ask me. We have limited resources and they need to go to blue water operations.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 am

    I think it is important to keep a presence in the Caspian Sea, and making small vessels for such a role would be a relatively cheap way to get the ship yards working on simple vessels so they can practise new design and construction methods and get used to using new tools.

    For every blue water navy vessel Russia needs they will need 40-50 smaller vessels and support vessels so for the moment I think building up the smaller fleets is OK.

    PALMA is the cheap CIWS option so I don't think this vessel would be much use in a blue water fleet anyway.

    It gets its radar target data from a centralised radar system with only optics to aim laser beam riding missiles and its two 30mm 6 barrel cannon, while instead of a light weight stealthy 100mm gun it has an old 76.2mm gun.

    Perfectly adequate for the Caspian, but marginal for a Russian blue water vessel.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  Viktor on Fri May 06, 2011 4:24 pm

    well beside GarryB point, Russia did not even came up new destroyer design, first frigate is in making and

    korvete is only in making. I dont see problem making little boats that can be useful if problems arise while

    there is money and time.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Fri May 06, 2011 4:44 pm

    Caspian sea is very rich with oil and gas, so I don't think it is a waste of money to secure this region.

    I think Russia is now more oriented in defending its near sea and coast than in projecting power overseas on in blue water.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 07, 2011 1:32 am

    I have read that this class of vessel is designed for shallow water and river operations and so it was pretty much custom designed for operation in the Caspian Sea like waters.

    As old small vessels are withdrawn replacements are becoming very necessary.

    During the 1990s the Russian Navy decommissioned a few ships and some of those built in the Soviet times but still being in service have already exceeded their service life. In order to make up for loss of missile boats projects 205U, 206-MR, 1241 and 1234, it was decided to design a missile boat of the fourth generation which would meet the modern demands on combat ships. First of all, an export version of the boat should be designed and only then the boat should be manufactured for the national needs.
    Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau also designed the prospective missile boat project 12300 type known as the Scorpion. Designers took into account state-of-the-art developments in the field of hydrodynamics, energy, and weapons applied in Russia and abroad. It resulted in a modern craft with standard displacement of 465 tons with the stealth forms featured for the western ships.
    In terms of displacement and major dimensions, she was close to the missile boats of Molniya class, and in terms of weaponry, to the small-sized missile boats of Ovod class.
    The armament of project 12300 consists of four fixed launchers for anti-ship missile Yakhont (export version of ASM Oniks) with firing range of 300 km. The target designation is provided by radar Monument with the over-the-horizon detection capability.
    Thus, in contrast to the previous small-sized missile boats, the strike range has doubled. The armament is also provided with powerful 100-mm gun A-190E (that is why the boat is classified as missile gunboat) with control system Puma (Laska) and air defence missile/gun system Kashtan/Kortik.
    Three-dimensional radar Positive-M1 is used to detect air and surface targets, while radar Buran is used for navigation. In addition, there is Anapa sonar station and four PK-10 launchers. For the first time the ships of this class are provided with combat information and control system Sigma where all ship's combat systems are integrated. It provides the missile boats with efficient combat capabilities as well as with data exchange between boats and ships. It
    allows also applying missile and artillery weapons at shore-based targets.
    The boat project 12300 is equipped with combined diesel-gas turbine power plant with the capacity of 25,000 hp. Two propellers are used to provide efficient cruising speed. The full speed (38 knots) is provided by hydraulic jet powered
    by gas turbine. High seagoing performance is ensured by optimized hull forms and ship’s gyroscopic stabilization system Ladoga which reduces rolling by interceptors.
    <snip>
    With the advent of new millennium Russian authorities are striving to design ships of the twenty-first century.
    In August 2002, in accordance with the government programme on Ship’s optimization, the Russian Government adopted the first shipbuilding programme in the modern history of Russia, which included also the construction of small missile boats and small gunnery ships of new generation.
    The request for proposal on development of small gunnery ships project 21630 (known also as the Buyan) was assigned to Zelenodolsk Design Bureau.
    Its scientific and technical support was carried out by the First Research Institute of the Ministry of Defence.
    According to this technical assignment, the ship represented a river-sea vessel and was designed to enhance the surface forces of the Caspian Fleet in the nearest maritime zone and in rivers as well as to protect and guard a two-hundred-miles economic zone of the country.
    That is why its designing took into account the features of the Caspian Sea and the Volga River in order to be able to navigate at shallow depths (the depth does not
    exceed four meters in the northern part of the Caspian Sea as well as in the territorial waters of Russia). One of the main requirements was to ensure high seagoing performance and cruising range so that it would be possible to cruise in the Volga basin and in the Caspian Sea.
    During the development of gunnery ship project 21630, the designers used the latest advancements in the field of naval shipbuilding.
    The appearance of new ship was designed in accordance with the modern requirements on radar visibility reduction.
    The latter is provided by inclined flat surfaces, bulwarks, and significant reduction of the number of extended hull fittings.
    Jib doors and slots in deck erections and structures are used for the same purpose.
    Apart from that, the levels of other physical fields were reduced as well.
    It should be mentioned that all set of on-board equipment and weapons were produced in Russia.
    As a result, the ship has a modern look with smooth shapes and rectilinear planes featured mainly for most foreign ships.
    Its total displacement amounts to 600 tons with main dimensions of 62 x 9.6 x 2.5 metres.
    The ship is equipped with powerful artillery armament which includes as follows:
    - Bow 100-mm gun mount A-190 with control system Laska (maximum firing rate of 80 rounds per minute, firing range of 21.3 km, and vertical range of 15 km);
    - Two 30-mm six-barrel guns AK-306 on both sides of the ship (hitting area of 4 km, firing rate of 1,000 rounds per minute);
    - Stern 40-barrel 122-mm multiple launch system Grad-M for hitting shore-based targets (firing range from 2 to 20 km, firing period of 10 seconds).
    Anti-aircraft weapons are represented by one Gibka pedestal launcher of 3M-47 type (known also as Komar) for four Igla-1M anti-aircraft missiles of 9M342 type in standard
    man-portable SAM weapon containers located at stern. This launcher,designed by Ratel JSC, allows killing low-speed air targets such as low-flying aircraft and helicopters at a distance of 6 km and heights of 3.5 km max. One single launch or a salvo fire can be provided simultaneously for target servicing. The launcher is controlled remotely and reloaded manually.
    Target designation is provided by surveillance radar station, while fire-and-forget autonomy, by low level TV camera.
    Additionally, the ship has two 14.5-mm pedestal machine-gun mounts intended for hitting coastal, sea and air targets. In general, the ship is equipped with the state-of the-art weapons and combat systems what makes it different from the most
    Russian and foreign analogues.
    The ship is also equipped with three-dimensional general detection radar Pozitiv and navigation radar MR-231 to ensure surface surveillance and target designation data.
    In addition, ship project 21630 provided with underwater detection sonar system and grenade launcher to destroy the underwater targets.
    The modern navigation system and hydro-meteorological facilities allow the ship to perform combat missions as well as to ensure navigational safety. Communication systems
    provide communication with the coastal and shipborne command posts and interacting forces, including aircraft. To provide jamming in infra red, optical and radar range, the ship is equipped with PK-10 jamming systems which have proven themselves for many years so far.
    Two-shaft main power plant with total capacity of 16,000 hp is diesel-powered. Two engines of M507A type are manufactured by Zvezda Company in St. Petersburg and each
    works at its own shaft. The ship is equipped with unique water-jet propellers produced by Almaz JSC.
    Together with shallow draft, it allows the ship to sail even along the small water basins.
    The lead ship project 21630 is called the Astrakhan.

    Arms defence review.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Sat May 07, 2011 7:50 pm







    Volgodonsk was put in water.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:19 pm



    A new picture of Dagestan ship. I hope it will have Palma CIWS also in front as it have now in its rear part. They also need to place Kh-35 AShM.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:44 am

    It is my understanding that the Russian Navy has decided to go with the Klub/Brahmos UKSK launchers, on their ships larger than patrol boat.

    I would suspect there is no Palma on the front because there will be a UKSK launcher there.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:16 pm



    You are correct, Dagestan have UKSK launcher behind 76 mm gun. I wonder if it will have additional AD weapon in front like AK-630 or Gibka?

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:30 am

    There is some talk of integrating SAMs into the UKSK system, but I would rather suspect that because the UKSK VLS are long and slim that there should be plenty of space either side for a Gibka or even Duet turret on either side.

    A close look at that second photo with the UKSK launcher highlighted shows directly behind the area where the launcher is position there is a large box room in front of the main deck... a couple of AK turrets there are a possibility, or indeed Gibka would be another option too.


    The space on either side of the UKSK will not have enough room for more UKSK launchers as they are quite deep and extend down well into the hull, but for SAMs much smaller VLS bins could be fitted... perhaps Morfei or the two small S-400 missiles could be accomodated.

    So we might find that there is a SAM VLS bin on either side of the UKSK plus a turret based system between the UKSK and the bridge, or one or the other or neither... Hard to tell.

    The 76.2mm gun will have a rate of fire of about 120 rounds per minute and will be able to fire proximity fused ammo, so it would have some capability against air targets, but proper dedicated air defence weapons make more sense.

    From what I have read about the refit of the Kuznetsov, it will get up to 6 Pantsir-S1 systems plus up to 120 Poliment (SA-20) missiles, and it will probably have a few Duet turrets too... the Russian take air defence seriously.

    According to this page:

    http://russian-ships.info/eng/warships/project_11661.htm

    The armament section says:

    on Dagestan – 1x8 VLS 3S14 UKSK 3K14 (guided missile complex «Kalibr»)
    1 module "Palma" - 8 launchers SAM 9M340E, 2x6 30 mm - on Project 11661E
    1x1 76 mm AK-176 (314 rounds) - Fire control system MR-123 "Vympel"
    Dagestan - 1 gun module "Palash" - 2x6 30 mm
    2x1 14,5 mm MTPU - on Dagestan
    2x2 533 mm torpedo tubes - Project 11660, 11661
    on Project 11661E - 1x12 launcher RPK-8E - Fire control system "Purga-ME")
    20 mines
    1 helicopter Ка-27 - Project 11661E

    From that I get the 8 round UKSK VLS. (front)
    A single Palma module with two 30mm cannon and 8 missiles. (at rear)
    a single 76.2mm auto gun mount. (front)
    a twin barrel 30mm gatling perhaps at the front on the pedestal area in front of the bridge behind the UKSK launchers. (front)
    Two 14.5mm HMGs probably each side of the bridge.
    RBU-6000 launcher. (front)
    20 mines. (rear)
    1 helo. (rear)

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:50 pm

    Actually 14,5mm machine guns are placed near Palash CIWS in ship rear end. I wonder what is under cower on the sides of radar tower. Maybe Gibka launchers or additional 14,5 mm machine guns or unknown electronic equipment.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:04 am

    Found these photos of models of Gepard vessels but there are so many different variants... from 1980s unstealthy old weapons, to new stealthy weapons and sensors and hull design.

    The Dagestan uses the old 76.2mm gun instead of the newer 100mm stealthy gun turret, the fact that it uses UKSK instead of Uran means they haven't done it all on the cheap... there is serious missile capability there...



    From this photo:
    A is the 14.5mm HMG positions
    B is Palma under a tarp cover.
    C seems to be a place they could fit Gibka or an AK gun turret.
    D is the UKSK launcher bins.
    E is the AK 176 turret.

    C could also be a position for the RBU-6000, or it could be fitted in front of the AK-176 turret.

    The positioning of the 14.5mm weapons suggest to me that they are primarily for use against light surface threats as such positions would be quite hazardous if the Palma above suddenly opened up with a burst of 30mm cannon fire to their side.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  runaway on Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:04 am

    medo wrote:Caspian sea is very rich with oil and gas, so I don't think it is a waste of money to secure this region.

    I think Russia is now more oriented in defending its near sea and coast than in projecting power overseas on in blue water.

    And thats a good priority, the Caspian is an important waterway, and this ship seems perfectly suited for it.
    As its relatively cheap, boost the Naval power in the region. Boost the local producers and workers, i would say its great.


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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:35 pm

    Recent photo from the rear.
    What do you think the structure at the back is for?


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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:35 am

    Hard to say what the structure at the rear is.

    Perhaps it is a control room for the towed sonar countermeasures sweep system, or perhaps it was part of the design for vessels equipped with helicopters.

    With the position of the Palma I don't think they will put anything on top of it like a mast or anything.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:00 pm

    How about another location for UKSKs?

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:51 pm

    That is certainly possible.

    The doors at the very rear might just be access to the small part at the rear, with the main box area containing either UKSK launchers or perhaps Redut VLS tubes.

    Now that you mention it, a close look at the top edge of the main box area seems to suggest lots of hatches like the entire top has been segmented into hatches for a row of vertical launchers.

    The frame structure on the roof is interesting too... it is in the line of fire of the Palma system and if the rear section was for UKSK or Redut VLS systems then its presence would mean they could only fit two instead of perhaps three launcher pods.

    We need more photos and from different angles to be sure, but I think right now that you might be closer to the mark with your suggestion.

    The shape of it is quite strange though... the angled sides are strange like they should have angled weapon launchers leaning on them pointing up and backwards...

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:44 pm

    I don't know what will be there, but to replace helicopter pad with some structure for sure means there will be some important equipment.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:25 am

    Keep in mind that this vessel, despite being referred to as a Frigate, because of where it is based and will operate is more like a really big patrol boat.

    90% of its time will be spent chasing caviar smugglers/poachers, and illegal fishing.

    Helicopters on board even small ships are useful, but not exactly cheap or compact in terms of the space they take up.

    For this vessel in the Caspian a land based helo or light fixed wing aircraft is cheaper and likely just as useful.

    I can understand them not fitting helicopter support facilities to this vessel considering where it is based and its likely roles.

    That is not to say they haven't put UAVs on board... many icebreakers have hand launched UAVs they can release to look for gaps and thin areas of ice... so it is not impossible that a few hand launched UAVs could be used to extend the vessels view beyond the radar horizon.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  medo on Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:11 pm

    Vietnamese Gepards have helicopters and by size they are small frigates. Anyway I think helicopter would be still very useful although Caspian sea in closed sea or large lake, if someone more likes in that way and is divided between five states and rich with gas and oil. Helicopter would be a big help for ship on their duty in patroling and protecting oil fields.

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    Re: Gepard class frigate for Caspian Sea

    Post  runaway on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:07 pm

    medo wrote:Vietnamese Gepards have helicopters and by size they are small frigates. Anyway I think helicopter would be still very useful although Caspian sea in closed sea or large lake, if someone more likes in that way and is divided between five states and rich with gas and oil. Helicopter would be a big help for ship on their duty in patroling and protecting oil fields.

    Agree, helicopter onboard is a huge capability.

    "The Gepard-class was designed from the outset as a lightweight, inexpensive export vessel. The Russians have offered five variants for foreign sale.
    Gepard 1: Helicopter platform (no hangar), VDS deleted.
    Gepard 2: Helicopter platform and hangar, VDS and SA-N-4 deleted.
    Gepard 3: Increased beam of 13.8 m., displacement increased to 2,100 tons full load, single forward-placed Kortik CIWS in place of AK-630s, helicopter hangar above VDS housing.
    Gepard 4: Unarmed version for search-and-rescue, though weapon mountings still in place.
    Gepard 5: helicopter platform (no hangar), increased range to 6,000 nmi (11,000 km) at 10 knots (19 km/h) knots, reduced speed of 23 knots (43 km/h), gas turbines replaced with 2 8,000 bhp (6,000 kW) diesels.

    The Vietnam People's Navy received in March and August 2011 two Gepard 3.9 class frigates originally ordered in 2006. They were built in Russia at Tatarstan's Gorky Shipbuilding Plant. Vietnam is currently examining a purchase of two more with the possibility that they will be built in Vietnam under license. [1] [2]
    "

    So a Missile frigate. Maybe they sacrifice the chopper for additional VLS.
    Not every ship needs a chopper, but at least some in a task force.
    If they have a few Gepards with choppers and a few Gepards with increased VLS capability, thats a good thought.


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