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    NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

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    ahmedfire
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    NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:34 pm

    ok ,,it's begin with these news

    WASHINGTON - A senior U.S. official says NATO has decided to boost flights of surveillance planes over Libya as the alliance debates the utility of imposing a "no-fly zone" over the country.

    http://www.military.com/news/article/nato-awacs-eye-libyan-skies-.html



    can NATO send his fighters to prevent libyan airforces from flying over libya without big losses ?!!

    that is libyan air defences



    libyan airforces






    Vladimir79
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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:19 pm

    Check out this fantasy... lol


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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:49 pm

    The Libyan IADS is almost literally paper. A NATO strike force with proper ELINT would establish Air-dominance over Libya in a week or two.

    If they got those S-300s however, that'd be a different story.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:15 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Check out this fantasy... lol


    that's it man Wink
    but where is the SAM missiles ?
    did libyans upgraded them in russia ?

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:22 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:The Libyan IADS is almost literally paper. A NATO strike force with proper ELINT would establish Air-dominance over Libya in a week or two.

    If they got those S-300s however, that'd be a different story.

    right,
    air dominance over libya is easy,,egypt and saudi arabia can make it easly..
    but i think NATO planes woukd have some losses
    libyans has some good numbers of SAMS,,they can use some techniques like pop-up...

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:59 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:Check out this fantasy... lol


    that's it man Wink
    but where is the SAM missiles ?
    did libyans upgraded them in russia ?

    There were a couple SA-6 batteries in there. Libyan air defences are rusting from the 1980s.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:33 am

    ahmedfire wrote:
    IronsightSniper wrote:The Libyan IADS is almost literally paper. A NATO strike force with proper ELINT would establish Air-dominance over Libya in a week or two.

    If they got those S-300s however, that'd be a different story.

    right,
    air dominance over libya is easy,,egypt and saudi arabia can make it easly..
    but i think NATO planes woukd have some losses
    libyans has some good numbers of SAMS,,they can use some techniques like pop-up...

    According to the graphic you posted, they barely have 100 vehicle-based SAMs, assuming good tactics are used they might down a few Rafales and the such but that won't stop a NATO air offensive, only delay the inevitable.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:02 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:

    According to the graphic you posted, they barely have 100 vehicle-based SAMs, assuming good tactics are used they might down a few Rafales and the such but that won't stop a NATO air offensive, only delay the inevitable.

    Yeah, and few of them work. Libyan AD wouldn't get a single Rafale. The fantasy is that France would do anything about it.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:17 am

    Exactly... the purpose of a no fly zone is to get into conflict with Gaddafis forces so they can justify going in there and getting all that oil.

    The reality is that this is not a case of a government fighting unarmed protesters like in Iraq recently that probably never made it on to western news channels. This is a civil war... those civilians are fully armed with all the light weapons an army has. They only lack the crew served heavy weapons, though I have seen light anti aircraft guns in use and Grad rocket launchers in their control so this is clearly a civil war which the west should butt out of... but they want that oil so they wont.

    Libya has just had its previous debt written off by Russia and started ordering something like 4 billion dollars worth of arms... wonder if the Russian armed forces will benefit?

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:19 am

    It's not like they're letting us butt in.

    Refer to the SAS team.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:06 am

    Refer to the SAS team.

    Sorry? Don't follow... can you explain further or have a link?

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:12 am

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12660163

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:55 am

    Hahaha... clearly they have not chosen sides yet... the Libyans that is.

    Thanks for posting BTW.

    The joke is that the west prefers dictatorships as long as they are western friendly dictatorships because they are more stable business partners and the corruption in the dictatorship allows the West to get what it wants from that country... once they have found the correct price.
    I wonder how they will get on now... the west seems to think all its dreams have come true and democracy is spreading, but the actual reality is these people don't know what democracy is and have taken an opportunity as it was presented to get rid of an abusive dictator.
    Odds are the dictator that replaces them will be no better, but I doubt they care... they just want rid of this one.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:04 am

    Or perhaps the Libyans know of democracy?

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:59 am

    In its criticism of Russian democracy the US has made it pretty clear their definition of democracy has nothing to what is in most western dictionaries.

    It all depends on US relations to the person in charge... for instance Hugo Chavez and Putin are dictators despite being repeatedly re elected.

    The current leader of the former Soviet Republic of Georgia and current leader in Afghanistan on the other hand are heroes for democracy leading their countries to peace and stability and economic utopia.

    The western press just copies and pastes what their governments print without question so the alteration of the language is not challenged and while the drones in the west who listen and do as they are told and feared communists under their beds and now think every arab is a muslim and every muslim is a terrorist or terrorist supporter don't care that their media no longer question anything and toe the party line.
    Foreigners read the rhetoric coming from the US and laugh because they can't believe they are supposed to believe it as something that is true.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:Exactly... the purpose of a no fly zone is to get into conflict with Gaddafis forces so they can justify going in there and getting all that oil.
    fully true...
    yesterday and today ,,qaddafi get some victories on the armed protesters he used fighters and tanks,, i think he want to cut the way on the WEST before taking any (no fly zone) decision...
    egyptian army did not take any decision yet ,but i think we will not support the decision of nato ,else we will not participate in any operation..
    qaddafi has some scud misiles and chemical weapons ,we can't be sure he will not use them,even against arabian countries that participate with nato..


    Last edited by ahmedfire on Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  Viktor on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:57 pm

    Gadafi has stakes in Airbus and other major EU companies as well as tons of money in EU / US banks. I think that might save him more than tanks and fighters fighting rebels and NATO.
    Besides Italians for instance have large deals over there. I think its not in their interest to see that man overthrowed.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:In its criticism of Russian democracy the US has made it pretty clear their definition of democracy has nothing to what is in most western dictionaries.

    It all depends on US relations to the person in charge... for instance Hugo Chavez and Putin are dictators despite being repeatedly re elected.

    The current leader of the former Soviet Republic of Georgia and current leader in Afghanistan on the other hand are heroes for democracy leading their countries to peace and stability and economic utopia.

    The western press just copies and pastes what their governments print without question so the alteration of the language is not challenged and while the drones in the west who listen and do as they are told and feared communists under their beds and now think every arab is a muslim and every muslim is a terrorist or terrorist supporter don't care that their media no longer question anything and toe the party line.
    Foreigners read the rhetoric coming from the US and laugh because they can't believe they are supposed to believe it as something that is true.

    Democracy is simple, I elect 2 guys, one for Congress/Parliament and the other for Head of State. They do some stuff, and I protest if I do not agree.

    Most criticism of Russian/Venezuelan democracy from the U.S. also correspond with European criticism of such democracies.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:00 pm

    Viktor wrote:Gadafi has stakes in Airbus and other major EU companies as well as tons of money in EU / US banks. I think that might save him more than tanks and fighters fighting rebels and NATO.
    Besides Italians for instance have large deals over there. I think its not in their interest to see that man overthrowed.

    All those assets have been frozen and Gaddafi's oil has been shut down. His financial situation is going to run out if this remains protracted.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:01 am

    Democracy is simple, I elect 2 guys, one for Congress/Parliament and the
    other for Head of State. They do some stuff, and I protest if I do not
    agree.

    Most criticism of Russian/Venezuelan democracy from the U.S. also correspond with European criticism of such democracies.

    So by your own definition of democracy your government talks sh!t.

    I have no respect for US or European governments because of their preaching and criticism of the way other governments do things.

    I look forward to the day when Russian and Chinese delegations start every US trip with complaints about the human rights violations at Guantanimo and how if the US wants to be a good international partner that it has to clean its act up... per capita the US has more people in prison than anyone else in the world... and you barbarians still have the death penalty! ...what are you thinking right now? You are thinking F off WTF does it have to do with you. What do you think they think when the US does the same to them. How do you think they go into important discussions thinking about that?

    But the US has very high morals and loves to show the world how "good" it is. Shame it never applies its high moral code to its own actions... only the actions of others.

    Lets face it... NATO is going to go in there (US and UK will drag it kicking and screaming if need be) to secure the chem and bio weapons and all sorts of other made up reasons and all of a sudden they will start policing the place. The question is will it turn into an Iraq, or will it turn into a Somalia.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:27 am

    Guantanamo is a bad example. Everyone has stains, including us, it's just that because our is smaller so we get to tell you to catch up.

    Eh, opinions are opinions.

    What I think will happen:

    1. NATO establishes no-fly-zone over Libya, Gadaffi's air-force is eliminated.
    2. Libyan Rebels coup Gadaffi and establish a reasonable Democratic govt.
    3. Libyan businesses are liberalized.
    4. U.S. corporations get the big bucks they were waiting for.


    Happy ending. Of course, your prediction of a direct land intervention by NATO is theoretically possible, but I stress that "made up reasons" are usually not made up. Iraq was a bad example.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:59 am

    Guantanamo is a bad example. Everyone has stains, including us, it's
    just that because our is smaller so we get to tell you to catch up.

    Missed the point again as usual.

    Perhaps at some stage the US will realise it will become more popular when it STF up and gives advice when it is asked for it only.

    Putting Native Americans into special camps on land that no body else wants so they can drink themselves to death is hardly ever on US TV news either. Rendition shows you are happy to kidnap anyone from anywhere and take them to seedy places and torture them... even the KGB didn't have the balls to do that sort of thing on that sort of scale.

    BTW wouldn't a Chinese politician saying the plight of the people of Tibet is a bad example. Everyone conquers countries... the US took lots of bits of land that used to be part of Mexico remember.
    I guess we can stop harping on about Tibet and Falangong etc etc. At least they get told what trumped up charge they are being held for.

    I can see why you don't give a Sh!t because there are no US citizens being held there.

    Happy ending.

    And that is the scary thing... you actually think that the big US oil companies getting their hands on a large chunk of the worlds oil is a good thing... I am sure when the prices at the pump drop to cents instead of dollars you will think it is a wonderful world and everything is right with the universe. The oil companies that changed their names to "energy companies" will breath a sigh of relief and continue doing all the crap they have been doing for how many centuries now and the US remains oil dependant.

    Give you a bit of a clue though buddy (and I am not being sarcastic), the Chinese are investing heavily in alternative fuels and solar and wind and many other cleaner forms of energy... Hilary Clinton criticised them for it actually I believe. Look forward to a future when China is in the lead in alternative energy because the western oil companies kept the price of oil low so alternative fuels never got a chance there...

    But the US doesn't need to innovate to lead the world right?

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:24 am

    If NATO( Mr Obama cough cough) lets Pentagon attack Libya, then his message of a fair and honest approach toward the Islamic world will be tarnished.

    I don't think Obama can risk that. And I actually like the guy, but the Pentagon lobby is too strong right now.

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:34 am

    So you're basis for American culture is based off of Hollywood movies? >.> Bad examples all around.

    To be quite honest, the difference between American conquest of the Americas and the Chinese conquest of Tibet was the awareness of the world and the recognition of sovereignties. As you might guess, back then, no one outside of the fat cats and pencil pushers could give a frak about the Americas. Back in the middle of the century, people outside of Tibet actually cared about Tibet. People being the basis of democracies, would thus put a level of care on that state. Tibet was a sovereign state, and no disrespect, but Native Americans were barbarians. Like the Gauls or the Slavs.


    I don't understand how you're inferring that Oil in general is a good thing. I'm simply stating that the Libyan liberalization of their markets will draw U.S. Investors, primarily in Energy, to them, which would reak profits to us. Being the linchpin of the World Economy, a rich U.S. is a good U.S. More money for our public systems and Universities and more innovations and inventions. Remember, we had a plan to build a Solar base on the Moon, had it not been for that Obama guy. Neutral

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    Re: NATO 2011 military intervention in Libya

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:36 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:So you're basis for American culture is based off of Hollywood movies? >.> Bad examples all around.

    To be quite honest, the difference between American conquest of the Americas and the Chinese conquest of Tibet was the awareness of the world and the recognition of sovereignties. As you might guess, back then, no one outside of the fat cats and pencil pushers could give a frak about the Americas. Back in the middle of the century, people outside of Tibet actually cared about Tibet. People being the basis of democracies, would thus put a level of care on that state. Tibet was a sovereign state, and no disrespect, but Native Americans were barbarians. Like the Gauls or the Slavs.


    I don't understand how you're inferring that Oil in general is a good thing. I'm simply stating that the Libyan liberalization of their markets will draw U.S. Investors, primarily in Energy, to them, which would reak profits to us. Being the linchpin of the World Economy, a rich U.S. is a good U.S. More money for our public systems and Universities and more innovations and inventions. Remember, we had a plan to build a Solar base on the Moon, had it not been for that Obama guy. Neutral

    Countryman, You actually trust the oil companies? dunno

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