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    Israeli Ground Arm:

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    GarryB
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    Israel ground arm

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 19, 2011 4:40 am

    But Nakidka kits passive in nature & this an active counter-measure..besides deception feature of this device is good. Mean you can change tank to ICBM launchers. Also the efficiency of Nakidka is dubious against FLIRs

    Nakidka reduces IR and radar signature, whereas this system seems to only operate against IR and it is likely much more expensive.

    The main question is will it work against all IR frequency options (short, medium, and long wave IR sensors)... and of course the obvious problem will it also work against LLLTV or digital TV... especially when the target is moving?


    If you see the second video the top mounter IR masking camera can deliver full 360 degree black/white visual coverage to inside crew

    Except that the camouflage are limited to being displayed on fixed displays... what if one fails in combat?

    TR1
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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:08 am

    Some revealing photos (and mind you I think the tank is actually pretty good as its its protection in general) about the Merkavas often inflated invulnerable armor.
    Merkava 4:

    http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/RRoan/reference%20pics%20olol/merkava4-plant.jpg
    http://www.operatorchan.org/v/src/134912753496.jpg

    The majority of the armor is in the modular armor arrays. Now it works pretty well, but after serious hits it falls apart, as we saw in Lebanon, after which the protection falls off rapidly.
    Now on the sides this is a problem all tanks suffer from (most have even less protection), but the Merkava's front seems easily compromised.

    http://files.abovetopsecret.com/uploads/ats63086_merkava4_1m.jpg

    Further from the side, the armor module doesn't protect evenly. The tops of the array are practically empty :

    http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/534/43478108.jpg

    http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1985/merkava4israel002.jpg

    http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/298/45603214.jpg

    Moral of the story- all tanks have issues.

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    Merkava 4 Tank

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:16 am

    Further from the side, the armor module doesn't protect evenly. The tops of the array are practically empty :

    Makes sense as their primary enemy has no air power or diving top attack weapons to exploit thin top armour.

    The large flat area of the roof is interesting as in close combat without tall buildings overlooking Israeli armour something like a low velocity rifle grenade might be very useful with a large HEAT warhead. A rifle grenade has no hard limit on its warheads diameter so you can have a shorter fatter rocket with a large HEAT warhead without it being too heavy... unlike and under barrel grenade launcher of fixed calibre. The resulting rocket could be lobbed a few hundred metres to come down at a fairly steep angle and threaten roof hatches of armoured vehicles... the key would be to have large numbers of rockets in a volley at a single target. Get a couple of squads of men (20-30) each with an AK12 with a rifle grenade mounted and all launch from different positions, but all at one time at a tank and the chances of a kill might actually be pretty good.

    Another option might simply to go the way of BILL2 and just add a gyroscope to an RPG-7 rocket and design a HEAT warhead that points down with a magnetic detection system that can detect a large metal object like a tank. Aim to fire the rocket to fly over the target and the magnetic sensor will determine when it is above the tank and the Gyro will set the warhead off when it is pointing down. Even if it only works 30% of the time it means you are trying to penetrate some of the thinnest armour on the vehicle with a good sized warhead.

    Another advantage would be that the rotation of the rocket would have a less negative effect on the HEAT penetrator beam so you could do away with the flight stabiliser fins and angle the rocket motors to impart a lot more spin so the rocket is properly spin stabilised instead of using big fins to stabilise it... this should make it more predictable in crosswinds.


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    nemrod
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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  nemrod on Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:43 pm

    Thx all for this very interresting topic.

    Trophy as Arena use radar to detect shoot. Each radar has mandatory its weak point.
    My question is very simple does it exist a way to blind or disable radar's Trophy ? It seems that there is another simple way to disable Trophy by using RPG-30 specially designed to circumvent APS's hardware. However, let's imagine the case where RPG-30 is not availlable.
    In the past, as now, I've never seen in a battlefield a hardware without setback. It never existed in history of man. Iam sure it is possible to neutralize Trophy.

    Regards.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:12 pm

    Probably the cheapest option would be a machine gun with projectiles fitted with corner reflectors in their nose. The corner reflectors will make the projectiles look huge on radar and be mistaken for a missile... fire a shot every few seconds or even a burst and the APS will run out of defensive munitions and then fire a standard Kornet.


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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:22 pm

    nemrod wrote:Thx all for this very interresting topic.

    Trophy as Arena use radar to detect shoot. Each radar has mandatory its weak point.
    My question is very simple does it exist a way to blind or disable radar's Trophy ? It seems that there is another simple way to disable Trophy by using RPG-30 specially designed to circumvent APS's hardware. However, let's imagine the case where RPG-30 is not availlable.
    In the past, as now, I've never seen in a battlefield a hardware without setback. It never existed in history of man. Iam sure it is possible to neutralize Trophy.

    Regards.

    Every radar can be fooled.. and more when they are so limited like the ones a Tank like Merkava 4 have.
    For me a cheap RPG-7 made not to penetrate the tank.. but to blind for a several seconds the radar will do the trick.

    For example you launch the RPG-7 grenade to a tank with the intention that is intercepted as usual..but that even if intercepted it will explode launching a cloud of anti radar and anti heat sensor material. So the Trophy system will be fooled in to think a massive attack of rockets is happening. Because will detect the material released by the rocket as more missiles.. effectively saturating the radar sensor.. then a couple of seconds after launch another rpg-7 rocket.. and that one will penetrate.

    In short what you need is a decoy.. a rocket that when explode fill the area around the tank with radio magnetic smoke and with spheres that heat is identical to the one of a rocket grenade.. What that will cause is the tank to non stop shoot at all sides as if was attacked effectively blinding it.. Any second projectile will penetrate easily the tank active defenses..

    About bullets , i don't think a tank active defense can stop them ,they are hypersonic and fly too fast. The radar will not be aware of them at all. Trophy was designed to counter the most basic anti tank weapons like RPG7 and Kornet-E ,Rpg-29 or Israeli splike missiles or even hellfire missiles are low subsonic projectiles  or Mach 0.1 to 0.4 , heavy machine guns bullets fly at mach 3.5 .  and Krisantema anti tank missile or hermes fly from mach 1.2 to mach 4.0.  So such fast anti tank missiles should have no problems to bypassing Israeli active defenses with just 1 hit.

    So how to bypass trophy? Simply use decoys to blind radars ,or launch 2 missiles of your preference at near the same time or use supersonic Projectiles ,or fast top attack weapons. Bypassing Trophy or any other active protection is not rocket science ,you only need to know its limitations. and all of them without exception can be overwhelmed.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:07 am

    About bullets , i don't think a tank active defense can stop them ,they are hypersonic and fly too fast. The radar will not be aware of them at all. Trophy was designed to counter the most basic anti tank weapons like RPG7 and Kornet-E ,Rpg-29 or Israeli splike missiles or even hellfire missiles are low subsonic projectiles or Mach 0.1 to 0.4 , heavy machine guns bullets fly at mach 3.5 . and Krisantema anti tank missile or hermes fly from mach 1.2 to mach 4.0. So such fast anti tank missiles should have no problems to bypassing Israeli active defenses with just 1 hit.

    No they are not.

    14.5mm HMG bullets or 50 cal bullets are not hypersonic and they travel fastest at the muzzle of the weapon firing them.

    At 2-3km range HMG rounds will certainly be subsonic... indeed good luck if you get that close... you will likely only get to 4-5km range at which distance 14.5mm rounds will reach but will not have the energy to penetrate any decent level of armour.

    that is not so important in this application as the rounds will have an aerodynamic nose cover with a corner reflector etched into its nose to make it appear to be much much larger than it actually is.

    the APS wont be able to determine whether it is an RPG or other missile type as the interception times are not long enough to add a human decision maker into the loop. This means an automatic system would have to engage the threat and to prevent it the crew would have to turn the system off.

    Fire ten rounds at each tank and see if they fire their APS interception systems.

    Then fire your missile which will take a few dozen seconds to reach the tank... as they approach fire a couple of extra bursts of HMG fire to make sure the APS is intercepting your HMG rounds and wont be ready when the missile arrives... perhaps out of interception munitions, or overwhelmed with all the incoming targets and not able to determine which is harmless HMG round and which is deadly ATGM.


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    George1
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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  George1 on Thu May 07, 2015 10:20 am

    Israel Ramps Up Orders of Armored Personnel Carriers Following Gaza War

    In response to last year's war in Gaza, Israel has signed a $310 million deal - using US military assistance funds - with General Dynamics Land Systems to produce heavy armed personnel carriers, their Ministry of Defense announced Tuesday.

    GDLS will produce kits for the Israeli Namer ("leopard" in Hebrew) armored personnel carrier (APC) which is based on the chassis of a Merkava, the Israeli military's main battle tank.

    The six-year contract calls for GDLS to produce kits for the vehicles, with final assembly taking place at an Israeli Ministry of Defense facility south of Tel Aviv, where local industry will provide other components and subsystems. GDLS previously had another contract — now concluded, and also funded through US military assistance — for $250 million to produce Namer engines in the US.

    "The Namer is considered to be the most heavily armored carrier in the world, and has proven its capabilities in Operation Protective Edge against myriad threats," the Ministry stated, referring to the war in Gaza last summer, adding that the vehicles saved "many lives."

    Previous to that war, the Israeli MoD had planned to halve the number of Namers it ordered. But an incident in which seven infantrymen were killed when an anti-tank missile hit their 50-year-old M113 (a model first used by the US in Vietnam) and subsequent public criticism led officials to rethink the cuts.

    The carriers will be equipped with the Trophy active protection system (APS), which helps defend against shoulder-held missiles and mortar attacks common to fighting in Gaza and Southern Lebanon. Though Merkava Mk4s have had APS in the past, the handful of Namers in the field since 2009 have not.

    Though the production kits will be US-made the MoD stressed the boon to local Israeli industry as well, noting that "200 plants all across Israel, which directly or indirectly employ some 10,000 workers," will provide component parts.

    The US spends about $3 billion a year in aid to Israel, more than half of the US' aid spending worldwide, and which provides about a quarter of the Israeli defense budget. Israel spends about 75% of that aid buying US-made products.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150506/1021797868.html#ixzz3ZRGOYSrN

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:04 am

    Israeli missile system Tamuz based on the M113 armored personnel carrier









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    Secret and rare combat systems of IDF

    Post  Militarov on Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:41 am

    Based on the hull of the Magach 5 tank, the Pereh features a sizable turret  with a fake gun barrel intended to hid its true mission of launching Tamuz ATGMs (also known as the Spike.)  The large bustle on the back of the turret pops up to reveal the launcher tubes, of which there are twelve (The original turret has been enlarged to install a launcher under armour). The front of the vehicle is fitted with a fake cannon to be identify as standard main battle tank. The Pereh can be easily identified by an curved antenna mounted at the rear on the roof of the turret which is erected in firing position..  According to Israel Defense, the Pereh has been in service for 30 years (!), the existence and nature of the vehicle was kept classified until declassified in June 2015. Additional features include add-on frontal armor and stowage boxes on the turret sides. Before firing a pack with rockets, as well as mast with optical systems, are raised above the turret. At a range of several kilometers operator uses optical systems of the vehicle to detect and track enemy armor. At long range missiles has external laser beam guidance. So at extremely long ranges soldiers at the frontline have to illuminate enemy tanks. The Pereh has the longest engagement range in this class of military machines. Also it is one of the most protected, if not the most protected, anti-tank missile carriers, ever developed.

    Its named after the onager, it was a Roman siege engine that is a type of catapult that uses a torsional force, generally from twisted rope, to store energy for the shot. The onager consisted of a large frame placed on the ground to whose front end a vertical frame of solid timber was rigidly fixed. A vertical spoke that passed through a rope bundle fastened to the frame had a sling attached which contained a projectile.















    Sources:
    http://tankandafvnews.com/2015/09/25/more-on-the-israeli-pereh-missle-tank/
    https://twitter.com/Tom_Antonov/status/647676964141182976
    http://www.military-today.com/missiles/pere.htm

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Militarov on Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:56 pm

    "Israel Converting Old Merkava Tanks to Armored Personnel Carriers. The new armored vehicle was first put to the test in a division-wide exercise that was held in the spring in the Jordan River valley. The vehicle is based on a Merkava Mk.2, many of which have been phased out within the framework of the IDF’s transition to the advanced Merkava Mk.4 tanks, which are now equipped with the “Trophy” active protection system. Rather than sending the tanks to junk yards, scrapping, or selling them to foreign militaries, the tanks were sent back to the military’s repair yards at Tel Hashomer. The tanks later underwent a thorough facelift; their cannons and turrets were removed, along with spaces used to store tank shells inside the hull. The result is a heavy armored personnel carrier, which outperforms the lighter M113 APC, which is currently in widespread use throughout the military."



    So they decided after all not to scrap all Merkava 2s and to convert them to Namers. I always thought idea of scrapping Mk 2s was stupid as fck. Also they wanted to build Namers from the ground on Merkava 4 chasis even tho original Namers came to be as way to use retired tanks, Mk. 1s.

    Source: http://defence-blog.com/uncategorized/israel-converting-old-merkava-tanks-to-armored-personnel-carriers.html

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  max steel on Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:18 pm

    IAI Unveils TERRA- world's largest radar system







    Militarov
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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:42 am

    "After 33 years of loyal service, the Israel Defense Forces’ Armored Corps is retiring the Merkava Mark II tank from service by its conscripted brigades. The tank will now be used only by reserve forces for border patrols during times of conflict, while the newer Merkava Mark III (which entered service in 1990) and the new generation Merkava Mark IV (2004) will handle all battlefield missions. Many Merkava II tanks will be converted into an armored personnel carrier that will serve soldiers on the battlefield, or be used to transport the wounded off the battlefield.

    By the end of 2016, the IDF's Seventh Armored Brigade, the last conscripted brigade to use the Merkava II, will switch to the Merkava IV, which is equipped with Rafael’s Trophy active protection system against anti-tank missiles. “We have ended training for the Merkava II tank,” Lt.- Col. Dvir Edri, commander of the Armored Corps training school, told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday. “From now on, draftees will be trained only on the newer tanks.” Edri said his training center, located in the Shizafon military complex in the northern Negev, had spent many months preparing for the transition from the Mark II. “This can only be good for us. From now on, we will train only using advanced tank technology,” he said.



    The more modern platforms are better suited to digital training simulators and present “more training options,” Edri added. “The quality of training therefore increases.” Edri’s training center focuses on preparing tank crews for asymmetrical warfare scenarios saturated with guerrilla cells armed with anti-tank missiles. “This is the kind of battlefield we are preparing them for, not scenarios involving rows of [enemy] tanks moving at them. They’re training for closed, built-up areas,” he said. Modern tank training also places a special emphasis on cooperation with the infantry.

    The IDF’s new digital command and control systems, which allow the tanks to communicate directly with the air force and intelligence units, form part of the training. “All of our training uses these systems. We have all the means to prepare cadets for using them,” he said. Asked if he will miss the Merkava II, Edri said, “In my case, I have been using the Merkava Mark III since my first day. So I’m probably not the right person to ask.”


    Source: http://www.armyrecognition.com/november_2015_global_defense_security_news_uk/israel_about_to_retire_its_last_merkava_mark_ii_main_battle_tanks_23011151.html

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Militarov on Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:03 am

    IDF soldiers and their "kits":



    33rd "Caracal" battalion



    Bahad 16 #SAR



    401st armored brigade



    Golani Brigade

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:46 am



    Merkava under snow.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:25 am

    Militarov wrote:

    Merkava under snow.

    Only one semi-brown face. 3 out of 4 non semites.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  max steel on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:28 am

    Deserve Kornet or Israel's own Javelin ATGM.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:37 am

    max steel wrote:Deserve Kornet or Israel's own Javelin ATGM.

    I belive Israel does not operate Javelin but only M47 Dragon and TOW when its about US made ATGMs.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:50 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Merkava under snow.

    Only one semi-brown face. 3 out of 4 non semites.

    The guy on the left looks Slavic or other European albeit he could still be Jewish, some have a lot of admixture especially Russian-speaking Jews.
    The 2nd from the left looks Ashkenazi Jewish enough; glasses definitely help.
    The 2nd from the right I can't really see enough of his face to tell, but sure he could pass as Jewish.
    And on the right we have an Arab-origin Jew (Mizrahim), or perhaps a Druze, Arab or other minority.

    Israeli Jews and Jews around the world are very diverse in their genes, so you'll see a wide variety of faces, features and skin tones.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:15 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Merkava under snow.

    Only one semi-brown face. 3 out of 4 non semites.

    The guy on the left looks Slavic or other European albeit he could still be Jewish, some have a lot of admixture especially Russian-speaking Jews.
    The 2nd from the left looks Ashkenazi Jewish enough; glasses definitely help.
    The 2nd from the right I can't really see enough of his face to tell, but sure he could pass as Jewish.
    And on the right we have an Arab-origin Jew (Mizrahim), or perhaps a Druze, Arab or other minority.

    Israeli Jews and Jews around the world are very diverse in their genes, so you'll see a wide variety of faces, features and skin tones.

    Despite the Hasbara lies that the region down there is where they come originally from the skin color proofs that those who are most eagerly to claim that it is their promised homeland that they nor their ancestors have ever any connections to this lands.

    They left brown but come back white. -Gamal Abdel Nasser

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:01 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Merkava under snow.

    Only one semi-brown face. 3 out of 4 non semites.

    The guy on the left looks Slavic or other European albeit he could still be Jewish, some have a lot of admixture especially Russian-speaking Jews.
    The 2nd from the left looks Ashkenazi Jewish enough; glasses definitely help.
    The 2nd from the right I can't really see enough of his face to tell, but sure he could pass as Jewish.
    And on the right we have an Arab-origin Jew (Mizrahim), or perhaps a Druze, Arab or other minority.

    Israeli Jews and Jews around the world are very diverse in their genes, so you'll see a wide variety of faces, features and skin tones.

    Despite the Hasbara lies that the region down there is where they come originally from the skin color proofs that those who are most eagerly to claim that it is their promised homeland that they nor their ancestors have ever any connections to this lands.

    They left brown but come back white. -Gamal Abdel Nasser

    I have had this debate in fact, more than once. I was on the same side as you are now, more or less. But through my debates I learned a whole bunch of interesting things.

    What you have to understand is that Jews are not a race, nor are they are just a religion, and nor are they really a single ethnicity as such, not in the sense of Russians, Germans, Somalis, Tamils, or anything like this.
    Jews are more of a lineage, a huge dynasty so to speak - more than anything else. One is regarded as a Jew if through your mother's lineage you can trace back your ancestry to Jacob, a grandson of Abraham (and a son of the infant Isaac that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice at an altar and then stopped him at the last minute, explaining to him that he passed his test).

    This is part of scripture, mythology of course. In practise, if you can trace your maternal lineage back to the original tribes of Israel from 2000 years ago, then you are assumed to be a Jew as far as even the most strictest adherents to Judaism are concerned. It goes without saying, that a group of people can emigrate, intermarry with locals at least to some extent, accept the odd converts to their religion or an entire people of converts in the case of the Khazars - and indeed, after a dozen generations their race may change (as in the case of the Ethiopian Jews), their language will certainly change, as will many of their customs - but if their lineage is preserved, then they are still Jews. And if they are all still Jews, all around the world, then they still consider themselves to be one people hailing from one historic homeland.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:32 pm

    You are not telling me anything i already know. The point is that no one today can proof linage further than 300 years and certainly not thousand years nor are there enough people to claim any blood relatives of some ancient ancestors. The point still remaints jews are highly prejucides among their own religion. You know about ethiopian jews? That they are hated because they are black and that etiopian jews only may enter Israel if women sterilize themselfs?

    Those are weight people from europe that have no lineage to claim to anything. Most jews change their names so often to pseudo-assymilate to "cover" themselfs that it is impossible to verify any real lineage since the jews are most prone and known to change names, religion and story to hide in any country.

    Practically it is impossible to proof nor to even know or guess how far anyones lineage would go. There have been alot of russians who have no ties to judaism or jews and have left Soviet Union in 80's due to economical reasons and because ISrael was paying money to new settlers to make it more attractive so there is a big black number of khazar/ashkenazi jews that have no ties or any blood not even over hundred generations to semitic peoples or tribes.

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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:35 pm

    Werewolf wrote:You are not telling me anything i already know. The point is that no one today can proof linage further than 300 years and certainly not thousand years nor are there enough people to claim any blood relatives of some ancient ancestors.

    Well Jews claim they can - recall that most Jewish communities in Europe were tight-knit for almost all their histories, they kept records, they mostly married within their own community (as everyone else did too back then), and if a man married outside it then his children wouldn't be considered as Jewish by the rest of his community - at least not in most cases.

    Religion and tradition played a very important part in this, and is what allowed and preserved it all pretty much. With some exceptions, Jewish tradition and religion were only passed down by maternal lineage, for the last 2000 years. Therefore anyone who still follows Judaism today, has a very strong case for claiming that he is descended from the original tribes of Israel/Jacob.

    The point still remaints jews are highly prejucides among their own religion. You know about ethiopian jews? That they are hated because they are black and that etiopian jews only may enter Israel if women sterilize themselfs?

    There are certain tensions, cultural barriers its more correct to say; given the huge cultural/linguistic/racial diversity of the world-wide Jewish community and inside Israel too. As humans with different appearances and customs tend to be, even when sharing the same nationality or religion or whatever else. But it's nothing really serious. Racial tension in the US is far more serious - despite the fact that there, they are all Americans.

    About Ethiopian women - I'm sure that's BS, could scarcely be true in a modern 21st country.

    Those are weight people from europe that have no lineage to claim to anything. Most jews change their names so often to pseudo-assymilate to "cover" themselfs that it is impossible to verify any real lineage since the jews are most prone and known to change names, religion and story to hide in any country.

    You make many generalizations and assumptions. Yes, many Jews did change their names in an attempt to assimilate, partially assimilate or otherwise stand out less. Some took it further and gave up Judaism; or kept their religion but married non-Jewish women and thus their family became non-Jewish and native within a generation. We don't hear about those people today because they successfully assimilated and lost their identity. We hear about those that didn't ultimately take assimilation all the way and decided to hold onto their identity and get married to other Jews (or in the case of a woman, it didn't ultimately matter who she married albeit marrying other Jews was the preferred practice).

    Those Jews who assimilated, hid, covered, etc... are not relevant to anything, and their descendants are not interested in claiming Jewish heritage for the most part or emigrating to Israel.

    The Jews that did not assimilate are the ones that claim today to have lineage from 2000 years ago. And they have a case for it.

    Practically it is impossible to proof nor to even know or guess how far anyones lineage would go. There have been alot of russians who have no ties to judaism or jews and have left Soviet Union in 80's due to economical reasons and because ISrael was paying money to new settlers to make it more attractive so there is a big black number of khazar/ashkenazi jews that have no ties or any blood  not even over hundred generations to semitic peoples or tribes.

    That's also true. In the 90s Israel made a decision grounded in national security (too many Arabs being born) and economic reasons, to close their eyes on Russian-speakers entering the country and claiming citizenship even if their claims/documents weren't convincing. And the rules were already pretty relaxed even without that - a single Jew from the ex-USSR could bring his non-Jewish family with him and have them claim citizenship on the same grounds that he did. Israel is still engaged in encouraging emigration from the ex-USSR; only most of the people going there nowadays are not even Jews by the common definition, but simply people with a Jewish father or 1-2 Jewish grandparents. And Israel has no problem with encouraging such people to immigrate.

    But this is a rather separate question and a very recent phenomenon.

    Werewolf
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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:52 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Well Jews claim they can - recall that most Jewish communities in Europe were tight-knit for almost all their histories, they kept records, they mostly married within their own community (as everyone else did too back then), and if a man married outside it then his children wouldn't be considered as Jewish by the rest of his community - at least not in most cases.

    Religion and tradition played a very important part in this, and is what allowed and preserved it all pretty much. With some exceptions, Jewish tradition and religion were only passed down by maternal lineage, for the last 2000 years. Therefore anyone who still follows Judaism today, has a very strong case for claiming that he is descended from the original tribes of Israel/Jacob.

    People can claim what they want that does not give them any claim or right for land they never had buisness to be there especially due to ethnic cleansing and genocide.

    flamming_python wrote:
    There are certain tensions, cultural barriers its more correct to say; given the huge cultural/linguistic/racial diversity of the world-wide Jewish community and inside Israel too. As humans with different appearances and customs tend to be, even when sharing the same nationality or religion or whatever else. But it's nothing really serious. Racial tension in the US is far more serious - despite the fact that there, they are all Americans.

    About Ethiopian women - I'm sure that's BS, could scarcely be true in a modern 21st country.

    You are wrong.

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

    A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.
    Click here to subscribe to Haaretz.com ($1 for the first 4 weeks).

    Health Ministry Director General Prof. Roni Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course.
    Gamzu’s letter instructs all gynecologists in the HMOs "not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.”
    He also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.

    Gamzu’s letter came in response to a letter from Sharona Eliahu-Chai of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, representing several women’s rights and Ethiopian immigrants’ groups. The letter demanded the injections cease immediately and that an investigation be launched into the practice.

    About six weeks ago, on an Educational Television program journalist Gal Gabbay revealed the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants. The women’s testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel’s Ethiopian community. According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. “They told us they are inoculations,” said one of the women interviewed. “They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.”
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

    50% decline in birth rate due to controlled birth controll of a different population is genocide.

    Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

    (a) Killing members of the group

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.



    flamming_python wrote:
    You make many generalizations and assumptions. Yes, many Jews did change their names in an attempt to assimilate, partially assimilate or otherwise stand out less. Some took it further and gave up Judaism; or kept their religion but married non-Jewish women and thus their family became non-Jewish and native within a generation. We don't hear about those people today because they successfully assimilated and lost their identity. We hear about those that didn't ultimately take assimilation all the way and decided to hold onto their identity and get married to other Jews (or in the case of a woman, it didn't ultimately matter who she married albeit marrying other Jews was the preferred practice).

    Those Jews who assimilated, hid, covered, etc... are not relevant to anything, and their descendants are not interested in claiming Jewish heritage for the most part or emigrating to Israel.

    The Jews that did not assimilate are the ones that claim today to have lineage from 2000 years ago. And they have a case for it.

    Maybe it is a generalization but due to the religion itself and the very unique construct of this religious nutheads mentality i would claim it is not a generalization but at least a majority if not an overwhelming majority. Of course there are also jews that got lost from communities to whatever reasons and had not kept ties to communities or anything that would held them there so they assimilated, but that is again only proof that they have no ties nor genes to semitic people or a claim to those lands if they can assimilate within white countries of europe. Being part of a religious nuthead group does not give you any rights whatsoever. Otherwise christians would have claims to ME aswell just because Jesus came from there and that it is the origin of christianity or whatever some religious nuthead would want to claim to get what he wants.

    flamming_python wrote:
    That's also true. In the 90s Israel made a decision grounded in national security (too many Arabs being born) and economic reasons, to close their eyes on Russian-speakers entering the country and claiming citizenship even if their claims/documents weren't convincing. And the rules were already pretty relaxed even without that - a single Jew from the ex-USSR could bring his non-Jewish family with him and have them claim citizenship on the same grounds that he did. Israel is still engaged in encouraging emigration from the ex-USSR; only most of the people going there nowadays are not even Jews by the common definition, but simply people with a Jewish father or 1-2 Jewish grandparents. And Israel has no problem with encouraging such people to immigrate.

    But this is a rather separate question and a very recent phenomenon.

    Because what they need is their policy of Expansionism so they take whatever is not against them or can be indoctrinated, used or partically claimed to be jewish to get their madness of Eretz Israel.

    max steel
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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

    Post  max steel on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:19 pm

    IDF replacing aerostats with new Skystar 330

    The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has phased out the Skystar 300 aerostat surveillance system it has been using for nine years, but is now operating the new Skystar 330.

    RT LTA Systems, the manufacturer of the Skystar family, said at the end of December 2015 that the IDF's first Skystar 330 is being used by the Combat Intelligence Collection Corps.

    It added that the Skystar 330 has been ordered by a European country, which will receive it in the near future.

    RT CEO Rami Shmueli said: "With the new technology that is introduced into this system, we were able to deliver a high-end system for military and homeland security applications."

    The IDF made extensive use of the Skystar 300 along its border with Gaza to gain tactical intelligence for forces on the ground and the 330 is designed to perform the same role.

    RT said it will continue to provide maintenance services for the dozens of Skystar 300s that are still in service with foreign customers.



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    Re: Israeli Ground Arm:

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