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    Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

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    GarryB
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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:23 am

    Mindstorm , one of the technical reasons that the IAF has given for selecting the Chinook is the ability of the Chinook to address the problem of "white out" ( in high altitudes) - which is addressed by the ability of the Chinook to fly in IFR conditions, with sensors to probe the clearance and distance from high obstacles.

    The mi-28N has full all weather terrain avoidance capacity... I rather suspect the Mi-26 could be fitted with terrain avoidance radar equipment if it hasn't got it already.

    Encourage Indian military officers to pass out from US military academies , constantly bombard them with training exercises which is a perfect platform to showcase their latest military hardware , and most importantly enter into JVs with the Indian Pvt. sector to sell there wares in India . I find absolutely no reason why Russia cannot adopt similar strategies . I did speak with a Russian military official on this and the response was Russia is happy with it's performance in India .

    It seems to me you don't understand the problem. The US is not taking business away from Russia, it appears to be taking business away from France.

    India has never bought all Russian stuff. When they have been buying some American stuff it has been on merit like the Apache, or the C-130 (because the An-70 is not in service) and the P-8 (because there is no Russian in production equivalent) and the C-17 (because the Il-476 is not in production yet either).

    The issue I have is with the MRCA program where the reason for not selecting the Mig-35 was because they already had too many Russian aircraft in service. The Mig-35 met all the requirements of the tender and was a fraction of the cost of the aircraft that was finally selected. The whole thing was a huge waste of money for Mig that it will never get back. India basically damaged Mig because it wanted its competition to look fair and balanced even though it clearly never was.

    Now they are pretty much doing the same to Mil.

    It would be like putting out a tender for a super carrier and choosing a Charles De Gaul carrier instead of a Nimitz class because the French carrier was cheaper to buy. Perhaps if there was clarity at the start of the competition Mil would not have wasted time and effort bidding for a competition it was clearly never going to win.

    Of course having said all that, if the Indian military is true to its word that those that have lost have lost to prevent a Russian monopoly in fighters and helicopters then these decisions against Russian aircraft should make remaining tenders more likely to succeed.

    Not that that will help Mil or Mig.


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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:23 am

    GarryB wrote:The issue I have is with the MRCA program where the reason for not selecting the Mig-35 was because they already had too many Russian aircraft in service.


    Just because you say so it does not make it the truth . The foremost criteria for selecting the MMRCA when the RFI was released in 2001 was that the aircraft should already be flying for the Air Force of the host / other countries and should have logged a certain number of hours . The Mig 35 did not meet this criteria. SO it was a cop out. They also had British and French aircrafts in service. If they wanted to prevent a Russian monopoly as you suggest then the T 50 deal would not have been signed.

    GarryB wrote:The Mig-35 met all the requirements of the tender and was a fraction of the cost of the aircraft that was finally selected.

    Not a question of what chance the MiG-35 has in the MMRCA sweepstakes but whether the MiG-35 ever had a chance in the first place. The Mig 35 was NEVER even shown in India before MAKS 2007 . What was shown was a MiG-29OVT as a proof of concept. It was an old aircraft with a few MFDs.

    GarryB wrote:The whole thing was a huge waste of money for Mig that it will never get back.


    And the other competitors send you a note saying we got back our money ? Right ?

    GarryB wrote:India basically damaged Mig because it wanted its competition to look fair and balanced even though it clearly never was.

    The Russian Ambassador & air attache were both informed in 2007 by the MoD not to participate but their explanation was that the UAC bosses will not accept this. By your argument India has also damaged the reputation of EADS, Lockheed and Boeing since their aircrafts were also rejected .



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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:05 pm

    Just because you say so it does not make it the truth . The foremost criteria for selecting the MMRCA when the RFI was released in 2001 was that the aircraft should already be flying for the Air Force of the host / other countries and should have logged a certain number of hours .

    Then how did Mig even get to enter the competition?

    Or, more importantly, why didn't they just call it a Mig-29F or something.

    The Mig 35 did not meet this criteria. SO it was a cop out.

    So why did they ask for the Mig-35 to come to AeroIndia? Why did they allow it to enter the competition when they kew it did not qualify?

    They also had British and French aircrafts in service. If they wanted to prevent a Russian monopoly as you suggest then the T 50 deal would not have been signed.

    By buying incredibly expensive French aircraft the requirement to not have an all Russian fleet is achieved.

    The problem is that Mig spent lots of money on this competition, money it wont get back.

    The most ridiculous thing is that in 10-15 years if they still have Mig-29s in service they will likely have components that Mig will likely develop for the Russian AF if they choose the Mig-35 configuration.

    They will likely get some satisfaction from the higher parts charges they will be able to apply... parts are generally more expensive when you buy them separately than if you buy them as part of a package with a new aircraft.

    Not a question of what chance the MiG-35 has in the MMRCA sweepstakes but whether the MiG-35 ever had a chance in the first place. The Mig 35 was NEVER even shown in India before MAKS 2007 . What was shown was a MiG-29OVT as a proof of concept. It was an old aircraft with a few MFDs.

    Yet they still wanted to flight test it... and the OVT could fly rings around any other aircraft entered in the competition...


    And the other competitors send you a note saying we got back our money ? Right ?

    It is one thing to buy a ticket to a lottery, it is another thing to find you are buying a ticket from last weeks draw and the numbers were not drawn, yet it costs the same as the tickets that will be drawn this week.

    By your argument India has also damaged the reputation of EADS, Lockheed and Boeing since their aircrafts were also rejected .

    Who is talking about reputation? I am talking about economics. Mig does not have bottomless pockets supported by local governments and agencies like the NSA and CIA.

    The Russian Ambassador & air attache were both informed in 2007 by the MoD not to participate but their explanation was that the UAC bosses will not accept this.

    Can you post these warnings to the Russians that their products were not eligible and should not be entered?

    Sounds rather unlikely to me as the entire process was supposed to be geared towards getting France to lower its price for Rafales, and competing with the Eurofighter and the Gripen and US fighters is hardly going to push the French as they know the Gripen uses US weapons and a US engine and would not be much use without those, a US aircraft was equally unlikely because of the US's relationship with Pakistan, which leaves the Eurofighter, which is an incomplete aircraft.

    India needed the Mig to keep the French on their toes.

    Most of the claims I have read for the Mig not meeting the criteria, including as you suggest comments before the program even got underway, should have been very straight forward and Mig should have been told not to enter, and indeed not been accepted into the competition. That doesn't seem to have happened.


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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:21 pm


    The mi-28N has full all weather terrain avoidance capacity... I rather suspect the Mi-26 could be fitted with terrain avoidance radar equipment if it hasn't got it already.

    GarryB i have already pointed out that Mi-26T2's НПК90-2 not only integrate an all weather EGPWS, but very likely the most modern and advanced one mounted on any lifting helicopter worldwide !!

    It has been just one of the most stressed selling point among avionic suit by part of Роствертол Company together with BTU-26 TV system capable also to control ,at 360 degrees and in any weather, the position and state of external oversize cargo.


    I do take some solace from the fact that India is purchasing another 71 Mi-17 V5 helicopters after the initial induction of 80 of these armed helicopters for $1.34 billion.

    Sujoy is necessary to exit from the logic of "compensations" , above all when in play is National Security ; this is valid for Russia (even in spite of the very strong and historically tested Friendship and Alliance with India) like any other nation involved in an open tender to provide Indian Armed Forces the best equipment for the role at the lower technical risk ,in the shorter time and at lowest procurement and operating cost ( naturally AT EQUAL PARAMETERICAL PERFORMANCES taken into consideration ) and taking also into account the best ToT offer to allow ,in the shortest time, India to become technologically independent in the most critical military sectors.

    You will never hear by me a single word ,if not of congratulations, for the selection of any not-Russian product representing the best product available for Indian Armed Forces in order to the factors mentioned above ,be it the American Boeing P-8I or C-130 or French Dassault Rafale (even when the tender ,like for the choice of AH-64D over the Mi-28NE, select a the less risky, close time, option capable surely to assure a prompt delivery adn flow of spare part); but here we talk of the selection ,without any kind of doubt, of the VASTLY INFERIOR MACHINE between the two , product of the ABSURD ,LINEAR COMPARISON of the procurement and life costs of 15 CH-47K with ...15 Mi-26T2 !!!


    I repeat ,if true, it is a very sad story for India.





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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:Then how did Mig even get to enter the competition?

    Because they asked an RFP to be issued to them , that's how .

    GarryB wrote:Or, more importantly, why didn't they just call it a Mig-29F or something.

    Because MIG calls it so , not the buyer

    GarryB wrote:So why did they ask for the Mig-35 to come to AeroIndia?

    Which means any aircraft that comes to AeroIndia will have to be purchased by the IAF ? FYI participation in AeroIndia is voluntary .

    GarryB wrote:By buying incredibly expensive French aircraft the requirement to not have an all Russian fleet is achieved.

    Second guessing at it's best .

    GarryB wrote:The problem is that Mig spent lots of money on this competition, money it wont get back.

    SO why did they enter this competition knowing fully well they can't afford it ?

    GarryB wrote:The most ridiculous thing is that in 10-15 years if they still have Mig-29s in service they will likely have components that Mig will likely develop for the Russian AF if they choose the Mig-35 configuration.

    The only thing ridiculous is this assessment that MIG 35 components will fit into all the MIg 29s of the IAF which are already 2 decades old.

    GarryB wrote:Yet they still wanted to flight test it...

    Of course , why not that's why it entered the competition .

    GarryB wrote:and the OVT could fly rings around any other aircraft entered in the competition...
    Not sure if it did .

    GarryB wrote:It is one thing to buy a ticket to a lottery, it is another thing to find you are buying a ticket from last weeks draw and the numbers were not drawn, yet it costs the same as the tickets that will be drawn this week.

    " A fool and his money are soon parted " . If someone decided to buy last week's lottery ticket to enter this weeks lottery it can safely be concluded that this person has lost his mental composure.

    GarryB wrote:Who is talking about reputation? I am talking about economics.


    EADS, Lockheed , SAAB , Boeing have not filed for bankruptcy yet .

    GarryB wrote:Mig does not have bottomless pockets supported by local governments and agencies like the NSA and CIA.

    Correct . That's why it no longer exists as it is now a part of UAC.

    GarryB wrote:Can you post these warnings to the Russians that their products were not eligible and should not be entered?

    Yes. Also , I never said the MIG was not eligible , though during the course of the competition the other aircrafts fared better.

    GarryB wrote:Sounds rather unlikely to me as the entire process was supposed to be geared towards getting France to lower its price for Rafales,


    Absolute rubbish . There were 650 parameters that were laid out . The winner had to satisfy 90% of these criterias , which only the Typhoon and the Rafale did ..Period.


    GarryB wrote:and competing with the Eurofighter and the Gripen and US fighters is hardly going to push the French as they know the Gripen uses US weapons and a US engine and would not be much use without those, a US aircraft was equally unlikely because of the US's relationship with Pakistan, which leaves the Eurofighter, which is an incomplete aircraft.

    SAAB had promised full ToT if selected , US is not trusted by many and the Eurofighter is not incomplete albeit a "False Prophet".

    GarryB wrote:India needed the Mig to keep the French on their toes.

    I am assuming you had insider information on this .

    GarryB wrote:Most of the claims I have read for the Mig not meeting the criteria, including as you suggest comments before the program even got underway, should have been very straight forward and Mig should have been told not to enter, and indeed not been accepted into the competition. That doesn't seem to have happened.

    You are not listening . MIG was told this at the very onset not to compete .

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:13 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Sujoy is necessary to exit from the logic of "compensations" ,
    No , no , not about compensation . The point that I was highlighting is that this is an example of a good decision in my view .


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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:21 pm

    Because they asked an RFP to be issued to them , that's how .

    Well you should have told me. I could have entered my Top Gun Mig-28 Yakitory fighter that is in no way related to any Iranian aircraft program even though it looks like a black painted F-5.

    Because MIG calls it so , not the buyer

    But if a requirement is that the aircraft be in service then naming it Mig-29F and then renaming some RuAF Mig-29s Mig-29F would allow that criteria to be ticked off easily.

    Which means any aircraft that comes to AeroIndia will have to be purchased by the IAF ? FYI participation in AeroIndia is voluntary .

    When it didn't turn up they were asked why it didn't show up... clearly India wanted it to appear at its air show... clearly for reasons that had nothing to do with the MRCA competition.

    SO why did they enter this competition knowing fully well they can't afford it ?

    Why does any company pay for advertising? To get business. The problem however in this case is that it was clearly a competition they were never going to be able to win because there was already a decision not to buy Russian.

    The ridiculous thing is that for the price of the Rafales they could have simply bought more Su-30MKIs which would be arguably more capable, already in service, and rather cheaper, though I am sure they would have taken 5 years to negotiate the agreement.

    The only thing ridiculous is this assessment that MIG 35 components will fit into all the MIg 29s of the IAF which are already 2 decades old.

    The Mig-35 is not that different from early models of the Mig-29 in terms of size and shape. Electronically they are totally different, but it is the same with IBM clone computers... a Pentium II 133 MHz PC from 1997 with an ATX motherboard can be taken apart and the old case can be used to house a brand new motherboard and CPU and RAM and powersupply that all still use the ATX form factor. You end up with a modern and capable computer with an old shell.

    The old shell does not effect the performance.

    Not sure if it did .

    Please tell me what aircraft type could outfly an aircraft with TVC?

    " A fool and his money are soon parted " . If someone decided to buy last week's lottery ticket to enter this weeks lottery it can safely be concluded that this person has lost his mental composure.

    MIG are not fools, if they were told there is no chance they could be selected at the start they never would have entered.

    EADS, Lockheed , SAAB , Boeing have not filed for bankruptcy yet .

    What? Why do you keep bringing these companies up? The situation is different for them... they are not Russian companies and therefore their winning the competition was at least a possibility throughout the competition.

    The other factor of course is that each of these companies have little internal competition so they generally enjoy government support, which is not something Mig can rely on.

    That's why it no longer exists as it is now a part of UAC.

    Well if you want to be Mr Picky then Mig never existed. MiG is the aircraft design bureau, but after 1990 it became MIG a holding of several companies and factories. It is currently a division of UAC or OAK, and yes it does exist as an organisation.

    SAAB had promised full ToT if selected ,

    How could it manage that with US components in its engines and largely US weapons?

    {quote]
    I am assuming you had insider information on this .[/quote]

    Fairly logical assumption... they didn't decide at the end of the competition that they weren't going to choose a Russian aircraft.

    You are not listening . MIG was told this at the very onset not to compete .

    Well that is just stupid. If you don't want someone in a race then don't accept their entry and entry fee.

    No , no , not about compensation . The point that I was highlighting is that this is an example of a good decision in my view .

    What I think he is trying to say is that India is treating its military budget as a childs allowance.

    Making sure all the children get a fair amount is not what this is about because the fat lazy disobedient kid ends up getting the same amount as the children who do as they are told and pull their weight.

    Defence spending should be about Indian soldiers in the field getting the best and also the Indian tax payer getting value for money.

    Buying medium fighters that cost more than your Flanker heavy fighters and probably a similar price to your FFGA stealthy fighters just sounds like a bit of a joke.

    Buying, in fixed wing transport terms an An-12 when you could be buying an An-70 is equally very odd. Sure the An-70 will be more expensive to operate, but will also be significantly more capable.

    Hopefully the Russian AF and government will realise that there is more value in saving Mig than just letting it waste away. I hope they make the same realisation with Tupolev, because Russian defence MIC with only Sukhoi is a very limited future.


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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:22 am


    sujoy although i support the decision to buy rafael .i want to know as soon as rafael was selected within a few days the $10bill deal became $20 bill how /?

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:37 am

    The Rafale was the favourite from the outset. The original requirement (years ago) was for a upgrade of the Mirage 2000 but the French were pushing the Rafale. Eventually the whole process evolved into the MMRCA

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:22 am

    sujoy although i support the decision to buy rafael .i want to know as soon as rafael was selected within a few days the $10bill deal became $20 bill how /?

    Because that is how much 126 Rafales will cost.

    They wouldn't sell India more M2Ks and they wouldn't drop the price of the Rafale (Rafael is an Israeli company BTW).

    India basically started the MRCA program to find alternatives that were cheaper and the result is that they are probably paying more now for the Rafale than if they had just accepted Frances word.


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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Well you should have told me. I could have entered my Top Gun Mig-28 Yakitory fighter that is in no way related to any Iranian aircraft program even though it looks like a black painted F-5.

    I had no idea that you don't have access to the media , or else I would have .
    GarryB wrote:But if a requirement is that the aircraft be in service then naming it Mig-29F and then renaming some RuAF Mig-29s Mig-29F would allow that criteria to be ticked off easily.

    Renaming would not have converted it into a new aircraft .

    GarryB wrote:When it didn't turn up they were asked why it didn't show up... clearly India wanted it to appear at its air show... clearly for reasons that had nothing to do with the MRCA competition.

    Turning up in air shows is inconsequential . Even the F 22 turns up at the Farnborough air show . There were buyers from a whole lot of Asian , African and Latin American countries who witnessed the performance of the MIG 35 in Aero India 2007 , why didn't they place order for it ?

    GarryB wrote:Why does any company pay for advertising? To get business. The problem however in this case is that it was clearly a competition they were never going to be able to win because there was already a decision not to buy Russian.

    They were told at the onset not to participate , they still did . Fair enough . They flunked the tests and MIG was given a de brief .
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/engines-and-radar-to-blame-for-mig-35-failure-in-mmrca-contest-360364/

    GarryB wrote:The ridiculous thing is that for the price of the Rafales they could have simply bought more Su-30MKIs which would be arguably more capable, already in service, and rather cheaper, though I am sure they would have taken 5 years to negotiate the agreement.

    And why would you assume this is not happening ? This is already happening . SU 30 MKI and Rafaels do not fall in the same category . The SU 30 MKI is a heavy strike aircraft like the F 15 SE whereas the Rafael is a light strike aircraft like the F 16D. If price was the only factor it makes more sense to buy LCA MK2 . For the price of one SU 30MKI they could have bought 2 LCAs.
    GarryB wrote:The Mig-35 is not that different from early models of the Mig-29 in terms of size and shape. Electronically they are totally different, but it is the same with IBM clone computers... a Pentium II 133 MHz PC from 1997 with an ATX motherboard can be taken apart and the old case can be used to house a brand new motherboard and CPU and RAM and powersupply that all still use the ATX form factor. You end up with a modern and capable computer with an old shell.

    The old shell does not effect the performance.

    It does . Case in point the SU 30 MKI's are being ripped open for the Super Sukhoi program. India's MIGs are two decade old .



    GarryB wrote:What? Why do you keep bringing these companies up? The situation is different for them... they are not Russian companies and therefore their winning the competition was at least a possibility throughout the competition.

    The MIG 35 had it not flunked the test would also have been considered . More importantly the MIG 29s that India continue to buy are bought without any RFPs . Maybe other companies can also cry foul.

    GarryB wrote:The other factor of course is that each of these companies have little internal competition so they generally enjoy government support, which is not something Mig can rely on.

    Mig's fortunes were already on a downward spiral . Sukhoi had stolen the march long ago and UAC does receive Govt.support.

    GarryB wrote:Well if you want to be Mr Picky then Mig never existed. MiG is the aircraft design bureau, but after 1990 it became MIG a holding of several companies and factories. It is currently a division of UAC or OAK, and yes it does exist as an organisation.

    You raised the question of MMRCA and Mig , I didn't .

    GarryB wrote:How could it manage that with US components in its engines and largely US weapons?
    It was for SAAB to manage concessions from the US . Their presentation stated that they can transfer 100% of the technology.

    GarryB wrote:Well that is just stupid. If you don't want someone in a race then don't accept their entry and entry fee.

    I have said this before and I will say this again . Entry is voluntary . And what you are saying is that MIG can't even afford an entry fee.
    GarryB wrote:What I think he is trying to say is that India is treating its military budget as a childs allowance.

    Those are your words ,not mine .

    GarryB wrote:Making sure all the children get a fair amount is not what this is about because the fat lazy disobedient kid ends up getting the same amount as the children who do as they are told and pull their weight.

    An illogical assumption and a story without a script.

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:17 am

    ricky123 wrote:
    sujoy although i support the decision to buy rafael .i want to know as soon as rafael was selected within a few days the $10bill deal became $20 bill how /?

    That never happened . The price stands at $11 billion ( taken into account depreciation of the local currency )

    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-09-08/news/33696640_1_eurofighter-typhoon-french-rafale-mmrca-tender

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:42 am

    Renaming would not have converted it into a new aircraft .

    None of the aircraft entered in the MRCA program were new.

    They were told at the onset not to participate , they still did . Fair enough .

    So far we only have your statement that they were told not to enter.

    If the purpose of the competition was to get France to lower its prices or include technology it was otherwise not inclined to include then it would be in Indias' interests that Mig did compete to pressure the French.

    And why would you assume this is not happening ? This is already happening . SU 30 MKI and Rafaels do not fall in the same category . The SU 30 MKI is a heavy strike aircraft like the F 15 SE whereas the Rafael is a light strike aircraft like the F 16D. If price was the only factor it makes more sense to buy LCA MK2 . For the price of one SU 30MJI they could have bought 2.

    If the F-16 cost as much as a Rafale and an F-15E cost as much as a Flanker then there would be no purpose to buying Rafales. The whole concept of high and low fighters is that the low fighter is a cheap aircraft that can be bought in enormous numbers while the bigger heavier aircraft maintains superiority. If the smaller lighter less capable aircraft is the most expensive then it has no reason to be.

    It does . Case in point the SU 30 MKI's are being ripped open for the Super Sukhoi program. India's MIGs are two decade old .

    Both aircraft would be ripped open, the innards replaced and then be sealed up again. The Mig-35 has a new larger wing that can be bolted on, but otherwise is pretty similar to the Mig-29 it was developed from. The same can be said for the Flanker.


    The MIG 35 had it not flunked the test would also have been considered .

    What test did it fail?

    More importantly the MIG 29s that India continue to buy are bought without any RFPs . Maybe other companies can also cry foul.

    To be comparable a competition should have been started to decide on a company to upgrade the Indian Mig-29s left in service. To be comparable after a 5 year competition with lots of tests and airshow appearances the Indians will declare that Mig is the winner because no other company is allowed to work on Indian Migs except MIG, so despite MIG demanding 20 billion instead of the 10 billion for the original tender they will win the competition.

    Of course the other companies would cry foul at that because they never really had a chance of winning the competition.



    Mig's fortunes were already on a downward spiral

    A downward trend shared by most Russian companies where most of their customers were not part of NATO or had recently been invaded by the US.

    It was for SAAB to manage concessions from the US . Their presentation stated that they can transfer 100% of the technology.

    So they basically lied.

    Any Congressman could have stood up at any time in Congress and blocked any agreement relating to US components in the Gripen being sold to India.

    I have said this before and I will say this again . Entry is voluntary . And what you are saying is that MIG can't even afford an entry fee.

    Why would anyone enter a race they know they can't win?

    They wont.

    Clearly this suggests that they clearly had the idea that they could change the minds of the politicians or the military. Fairly easy thing to do really if you want them there to put pressure on the French bid...

    a story without a script.

    A story without a script... = the real world. Very Happy

    The price stands at $11 billion ( taken into account depreciation of the local currency )

    According to that article the Rafale was the lowest bidder... I suspect that was to secure the deal but over time the price will change significantly.

    I really don't believe they will sell India Rafales for less than MIG can sell Mig-35s.


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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:00 am

    Τhis topic is for helicopters, Chinook won the competition so the matter is over

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:24 pm

    George1 wrote:Τhis topic is for helicopters, Chinook won the competition so the matter is over
    true but i enjoy reading the arguments of both gary and sujoy .they both r so good ;p

    sujoy wasnt ther some other deal tied to the rafale deals ? i mean like france allowing india to test nukes in one of thier facilities ?









    ps :sry for posting the external link in the other thread i have quit that forum which is run by bunch of teenagers i guess

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:11 pm

    The result for the combat helicopters was announced earlier, and for the heavy lift, it should be officially announced within a few days. But sources confirmed that the Chinook is L-1, or the lowest in acquisition and maintenance costs in the official jargon.

    Notably, IAF has been using the Mi 26 for a quarter century now, and there appeared to be a leaning towards this machine because of familiarity and the fact that it can carry more weight than the Chinook. But Russia does not make this helicopter any more, and even with refurbished machines perhaps, its projected costs are higher.

    The Chinook is a much more versatile machine, and the only helicopter in the world that can also float on water for launching and recovering inflatable boats with commandoes. In terms of operational capability, while the Mi 26 can carry more weight, it is nowhere near the American machine.

    In fact in the Himalayan heights, the Mi 26 has sometimes had problems in taking off and small runways had to be built to give it some lift. According to Lt Gen BS Pawar (Retd), an expert on rotorcraft, the newer version of the Chinook which India will get from the US , is a proven machine and perhaps the best in comparison to other helicopters. “It is versatile and has proved as a great workhorse both in Afghan and Iraq operations in heavy logistic roles.”

    Chinook will be useful not only in ferrying under-slung artillery guns and jeeps but also be useful for integrated day and night commando operations for which it is well-equipped,” Lt Gen Pawar observed adding that the aircraft has also proved extremely useful in disaster relief operations.
    source
    Code:
    http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1789_Boeings_Chinook_wins_Indian_heavy_lift_helicopter_tender.htm

    doesnt russian make new mil26 anymore ???

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:14 pm

    ricky123 wrote:sujoy wasnt ther some other deal tied to the rafale deals ?

    One of the spinoffs of the MMRCA deal was to establish an Industrial relation with the country that wins this deal . Now, it is not just confined to the Air Force . It could very easily be with the Army and the Navy . France has agreed to sell crucial technology related to the Scorpene submarine to India so that they can be designed in Mumbai(Mazagon docks) . Dassault will also provide some inputs for the LCA MK2 and the Aura UCAV project . No such deals have been signed but it is understood that these are the offers that France made .

    ricky123 wrote:i mean like france allowing india to test nukes in one of thier facilities ?
    India already received data about nuclear tests from the USSR . India in all likelihood will not test another nuclear device in the near future as their is an unilateral moratorium in place. Also, EU regulation will not allow France to co-operate with India in developing nuclear weapons . France , does NOT tests it's nuclear weapons in it's own territory . They last tested in the SOuth Pacific .

    P.S - This discussion should ideally be in the "India" thread.

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:26 pm

    ricky123 wrote:
    The result for the combat helicopters was announced earlier, and for the heavy lift, it should be officially announced within a few days. But sources confirmed that the Chinook is L-1, or the lowest in acquisition and maintenance costs in the official jargon.

    Notably, IAF has been using the Mi 26 for a quarter century now, and there appeared to be a leaning towards this machine because of familiarity and the fact that it can carry more weight than the Chinook. But Russia does not make this helicopter any more, and even with refurbished machines perhaps, its projected costs are higher.

    The Chinook is a much more versatile machine, and the only helicopter in the world that can also float on water for launching and recovering inflatable boats with commandoes. In terms of operational capability, while the Mi 26 can carry more weight, it is nowhere near the American machine.

    In fact in the Himalayan heights, the Mi 26 has sometimes had problems in taking off and small runways had to be built to give it some lift. According to Lt Gen BS Pawar (Retd), an expert on rotorcraft, the newer version of the Chinook which India will get from the US , is a proven machine and perhaps the best in comparison to other helicopters. “It is versatile and has proved as a great workhorse both in Afghan and Iraq operations in heavy logistic roles.”

    Chinook will be useful not only in ferrying under-slung artillery guns and jeeps but also be useful for integrated day and night commando operations for which it is well-equipped,” Lt Gen Pawar observed adding that the aircraft has also proved extremely useful in disaster relief operations.
    source
    Code:
    http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1789_Boeings_Chinook_wins_Indian_heavy_lift_helicopter_tender.htm

    doesnt russian make new mil26 anymore ???

    Actually the latest variant called the MI 46 was offered . But in deciding the L1 MoD has considered the life cycle costs as is normally done .

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:31 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:sujoy wasnt ther some other deal tied to the rafale deals ?

    One of the spinoffs of the MMRCA deal was to establish an Industrial relation with the country that wins this deal . Now, it is not just confined to the Air Force . It could very easily be with the Army and the Navy . France has agreed to sell crucial technology related to the Scorpene submarine to India so that they can be designed in Mumbai(Mazagon docks) . Dassault will also provide some inputs for the LCA MK2 and the Aura UCAV project . No such deals have been signed but it is understood that these are the offers that France made .

    ricky123 wrote:i mean like france allowing india to test nukes in one of thier facilities ?
    India already received data about nuclear tests from the USSR . India in all likelihood will not test another nuclear device in the near future as their is an unilateral moratorium in place. Also, EU regulation will not allow France to co-operate with India in developing nuclear weapons . France , does NOT tests it's nuclear weapons in it's own territory . They last tested in the SOuth Pacific .

    P.S - This discussion should ideally be in the "India" thread.

    i have read in some papers that france has a facility where it cant test nukes andsince india has signed nuke deal with usa which doesnt allow india to test nuke again .india was looking at france to test its weapons in secret and i am not talking off exploding nukes .but some kind of nuke tech which can be experimented in france

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:00 am

    Τhis topic is for helicopters, Chinook won the competition so the matter is over

    Quite right George1 thanks for reminding us.

    But Russia does not make this helicopter any more, and even with refurbished machines perhaps, its projected costs are higher.

    This chap might want to tell this to Mil because Mil are going to be restarting production for the Russian military with the brand new Mi-26T2 model with vastly improved cockpit and two crew (plus load handler) and greatly upgraded electronics and equipment.

    The Chinook is a much more versatile machine, and the only helicopter in the world that can also float on water for launching and recovering inflatable boats with commandoes.

    A navy might find that useful, but AFAIK these aircraft are being bought by the Indian Air Force.

    In fact in the Himalayan heights, the Mi 26 has sometimes had problems in taking off and small runways had to be built to give it some lift.

    All aircraft suffer performance wise in hot and high conditions. The Mi-26T2 will carry a heavier payload than the Chinook whereever and whenever it is used.

    “It is versatile and has proved as a great workhorse both in Afghan and Iraq operations in heavy logistic roles.”

    Yet, when forced down it is the Mi-26 that is sent in to recover the Chinook...


    Chinook will be useful not only in ferrying under-slung artillery guns and jeeps but also be useful for integrated day and night commando operations for which it is well-equipped,” Lt Gen Pawar observed adding that the aircraft has also proved extremely useful in disaster relief operations.

    I believe you are talking about supercomputer simulation software to allow simulated nuclear explosions to test new designs without actually detonating anything.

    Mil are also offering the Mi-26T2 to France and Germany for use as a heavy helicopter program.

    The deal is pretty much a case of either buy the Russian helo or develop their own.

    For this reason the Mi-26T2 is largely oriented to NATO and European standards.

    Chinook is not even considered as it is in a different payload class.

    Amusing the comments about the Mi-26 in service for a quarter of a century... the Chinook is rather older.

    BTW regarding production:

    In July 2010 proposed Russian-Chinese development of a 33-ton heavy-lift helicopter was announced.[6]

    Russian helicopter manufacturer, Rostvertol is in the process of refurbishing and upgrading the entire fleet of Mi-26s serving in the Russian Air Force. The fleet is estimated to number around 20 helicopters. Refurbished and upgraded aircraft will be comparable to an up-to-date variant: Mi-26T. Contract completion is planned for 2015. The same contract covers the manufacture of 22 brand new Mi-26T helicopters. As of January 2012, eight new-production helicopters have been delivered to operational units.[7]

    Service entry dates are 1962 for Chinook and 1983 for Mi-26.

    The Mi-26T2 can carry underslung gun loads and has the payload capacity to carry a truck and spare ammo and the gun crew inside the helo so the entire ground mobile unit can be delivered in one load.


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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:47 am

    Six new "Terminator" arrived at the airbase the Eastern military district

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201212201045-ibo1.htm

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:08 pm

    Dec 23 - Mi-26 saves Norwegian Sea King (photos on link)
    Arrow http://bmpd.livejournal.com/422831.html

    ---

    There's talk on the Ru Net that Algeria is showing interest in buying 12 x Mi-26T2 helicopters.

    This is from June 2012

    Russia to show its upgraded Mi-26T2 to Algerian Air Force
    http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/450483.html


    And some pics from a recent visit by Algerian paratroops during which they jumped from a Mi-26





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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:41 am

    New Mi-26. Serial No: 34001212529



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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:59 pm






    Source : DARE ( Aero India 2013 )

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    Re: Mi-8/17, Μi-38, Mi-26: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:15 am

    Interesting Sujoy, but the chance of the Russian military adopting it over President-M is fairly slim... Wink


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