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    nightcrawler
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    Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:08 am








    Above are two different documentaries entailing Nazi scientific advancements in
    • Swept-wing technology
    • Jet fighter & bomber
    • Radio & television
    • Rockets
    • UFOs
    • Guided SAMs
    • Killer Laser
    • Nuclear technology
    • Human health& medicine



    ....& how those scientists ended mostly in US/UK hands
    Hunt 4 Hitler Scientists (2parts)



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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  Ogannisyan8887 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:24 am

    YES those germans are very smart.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:57 pm

    There wasn't anything special about Nazi scientists except for the fact that they were properly funded and supported.

    For example the Mig-8 not only had swept wings but also canard fore planes and a pusher propeller so you could hardly say the Nazi scientists were alone in exploring the features of swept wing design.

    I do find it amusing that in the west many still consider the Mig-15 to be a copy of a German fighter the Focke Wulf Ta-183, but this has been dis proven... mainly because the Ta-183 fell into US hands along with the development team. That is usually where western speculation ends... they don't follow the logical path of such thinking and suggest that the Sabre might have been Shooting Star with Ta-183 features added, or just an American Ta-183.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:32 pm

    @Garry
    There wasn't anything special about Nazi scientists except for the fact that they were properly funded and supported.

    For example the Mig-8 not only had swept wings but also canard fore planes and a pusher propeller so you could hardly say the Nazi scientists were alone in exploring the features of swept wing design.

    First there was really something special about Nazis. In 1940s more than half the nobel prize winners were Germans; just look at their literature & one can estimate how intelligent they were...

    Regarding MiG-8 there is no literature available that Soviets preceded Nazis in this work; we do know that aviation in Soviet was very meagre; no jet engines Soviet had of their own & perhaps if I can recall their MiG-15 were powered by Rolls-Royce engines delivered before hand by British.
    One also can say that in rocket-launcher concept Nazis preceded in effectively deploying their 21 cm Nebelwerfer 42 relative to Soviets who only latter in the war put their Katyusha's in use

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  Aramonik on Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:12 am

    German Science was 20 years ahead of the other Major Powers.
    Before the War. Just my opinion.

    I thought taking it was the entire point of the War.scratch

    Interesting videos M8

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:40 am

    in the vid. a laser mounted truck is seen; I can't find anything about it. Did the Nazis possessed those killer Lasers at that moment??

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:43 am

    The problem is myth vs reality.

    A lot of this stuff is speculation and some of it gets a bit carried away.

    in the vid. a laser mounted truck is seen; I can't find anything about it. Did the Nazis possessed those killer Lasers at that moment??

    Lasers did not exist in WWII.

    Most inventions come from previous work and it is quite common for breakthroughs in many places to occur in parallel.

    A point about intelligence... there were just as many intelligent people from other countries of other nationalities... The difference is that in Germany those minds were concentrated into groups with a goal and lots of money.

    You can be sure if a technology could be used to cure cancer or be used to kill non-whites then the Nazis would have focussed all their efforts to the latter which makes it pretty hard to give them much credit that some do in the west.

    It was very shameful that one day these guys were doing experiments on handicapped people not to help them but to prove they had jewish blood or slavic blood that shows they were subhuman so they could be exterminated with a clear conscience than for any purpose of helping them.

    Verner Von Braun was a classic example, he didn't care how many children died in slave labour camps to build his missiles, he just wanted to make rockets.

    To be honest it is why I dislike some extremist Israelis and Americans who seem to have a similar attitude that their culture is the best and all the best scientists are theirs and that they have some sort of special superiority over everyone else on this planet... it is revolting.

    BTW German science was ahead in some areas, and behind in others.

    The German tanks were superior in design and their tactics were better but in many areas they were inferior too. The Germans happily copied the T-34 when it appeared and they called their copy Panther. The Germans also adopted Soviet 120mm mortars into service and put them into production when they came up against them and found how useful and effective they were. They even took the gas system of the Tokarev rifle and used it on their own rifles to take them from mediocre to adequate.

    You could say that with panzerfausts the Germans were ahead, but the best weapon to kill a tank is another tank and the Soviets and Americans were ahead there in numbers as well as quality in many respects.

    The Me-262 was impressive but had little chance to make much difference at all.

    The V-2 was pointless without a nuclear warhead as its poor accuracy made it an inconvenience weapon rather than a real threat.

    I always thought the strategic bombing campaign of the west was a terrible waste of time and lives... if they could have simply hit the ball bearing factories and wiped them out then that would have been significant, but they never did.

    Other than murdering more German civilians than Stalin did the strategic bombing campaign would be considered now a war crime.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  Aramonik on Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:38 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Other than murdering more German civilians than Stalin did the strategic bombing campaign would be considered now a war crime.

    War crimes indeed. Uboats were attacked by US Navy all during 1940.
    With no War between US/Germany till late December 1941, near 1942.
    This was violation of International Law. US only respect International
    Law when in best interest. Discard when needed. Still same today.

    Drunk Fool Churchill says himself, Air War to kill as many civilians as possible.
    Dresden, Berlin, Stuttgart, Hamburg leveled, many innocent Women and Children incinerated.
    Then convict Germans at Nuremberg with intentional targeting of civilians.
    Churchill = war criminal and #1 Hypocrite.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:19 pm

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both large population centres with very little military value, which is why they were left unscathed from the firebombing and also why they were selected amongst a few other cities as targets for the nuclear bombs

    They were not chosen because their destruction would speed up the end of the war by defeating the Japanese military, they were chosen for maximum civilian fatalities.


    Back on topic, if the Nazis were 20 years ahead of everyone why was it that the future of jet engines came from Britain? It was British engines that powered the Soviet fighters because they were two to three times more powerful and much better engineered with better longer lasting materials. US jet engine design also "suddenly" improved went the British started handing over their superior engine technology.

    British radar technology was also much better than German technology.

    If you look at rocket engines you see the same pattern as with bombers... the Soviets started very early with rockets but focussed on rockets that were useful to them... they didn't need huge long range rockets to hit foreign cities, they wanted air launched and ground launched rockets that could destroy battlefield targets and that is what they focussed on. If they had the same focus on long range ballistic rockets there is no reason why they wouldn't have had rockets every bit as good as the German rockets.

    Look at the immediate post war period the Soviets certainly were able to match US developments step for step and achieved ICBM status first.

    It was the same with large long range bombers, the Soviets did a lot of work on bombers up until about 1933 and then they changed focus to twin engine bombers designed to support the ground forces. As I mentioned elsewhere it was the unexpected arrival of the ANT-25 in the US after flying over 9,000kms nonstop from the Soviet Union that made congress change its mind on cancelling the B-17 that was considered too expensive and totally unnecessary at the time.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:08 am

    @Aramonik
    Churchill wasn't the hypocrite it was the Stalin who was the real hypocrite & a very disdainful person. I say why did the Nazi-Soviet pact signed in the first place; why did Stalin ever wanted to capture the Balkan states or much more than that>> 'Poland'. Ok Balkans had some historical assimilation with the Soviets not the Poland.
    When Hitler started fingering Stalin a$$ he only then realised how to befriend allies; whom he greatly despises beforehand; this is hypocrisy which Churchill never did. Brits always did honour their pledges & can't be compared with yanks....

    @Garry
    Back on topic, if the Nazis were 20 years ahead of everyone why was it that the future of jet engines came from Britain? It was British engines that powered the Soviet fighters because they were two to three times more powerful and much better engineered with better longer lasting materials. US jet engine design also "suddenly" improved went the British started handing over their superior engine technology.
    ...& who got the first operational Jet bomber as well as Jet fighter??
    care to see the last documentary where UK keenly hunted for Hitler aviation engineers & jet engine prototypes & US did the same work but in a different category>>Nuclear/Rocket scientists. Soviets then had no operational rocket building society in any sense; although I do believe that Soviets did great in the post-war scenario & out-beat the allies in the space/propulsion race. Had Stalin not be so notorious the German scientists would have been working for Soviets & not the allies.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:51 am

    Churchill wasn't the hypocrite it was the Stalin who was the real hypocrite & a very disdainful person.

    Stalin was a brute that thought scientists and most other people were lazy and only worked well when under threat of death.

    Churchil was a real Jerk who thought colonialism was the colonial power doing the the colonised country a favour by taking control of it and fleecing it of all its useful assets and then moving on to the next country.

    I say why did the Nazi-Soviet pact signed in the first place; why did Stalin ever wanted to capture the Balkan states or much more than that>> 'Poland'. Ok Balkans had some historical assimilation with the Soviets not the Poland.

    Everybody whines about Poland!!! Look at a map from WWI or before and point to me where it says Poland... Poland didn't even exist then.

    Stalin went to the British to see what sort of agreement he could get before WWII had even started and the British told him to go talk to the Polish. The Soviets went to the Polish, but if you look at the history of the region Poland stole land from the Russians/Soviets weakened from WWI and their revolution and openly fought with them up till about 1921 or so, so the Polish didn't want a treaty with the Soviets... they turned to the Germans for protection from the Soviets.

    Having been rejected by both countries Stalin was approached by the Germans with an agreement that would give him half of Poland and keep German forces that distance further from Moscow. In absence of any offer from anyone else he took the German offer of a NON AGGRESSION Pact.

    Note NON AGGRESSION pact. The US and UK currently don't have a non aggression pact because real allies don't need agreements that outline what each can pinch without infringing on the interests of the other.

    Stalin was not a hypocrite to sign the pact with Germany... he would have been an idiot not to. Poland was no ally of the Soviets and the UK were not much better.

    When Hitler started fingering Stalin a$$ he only then realised how to befriend allies;

    Churchil compared Stalin to the devil... he was hardly an ally.
    What support did he get from his allies?
    Lend lease was not free and was payed for.

    While the western allies p!ssed around in North Africa and Italy the Soviets were fighting the real war... if the Brits and Americans had really wanted to fight Germany they could have launched D Day in 1942. They would have taken a lot more casualties but then they might have pushed the Germans back to their borders and freed Eastern Europe too and been in a much better position during the Cold war.
    But instead they were happy to let the Soviets suffer... is it any surprise the Soviets used Eastern Europe as a buffer zone to NATO so that they wouldn't suffer ground fighting like that again?

    whom he greatly despises beforehand; this is hypocrisy which Churchill never did.

    Actually it was Churchil that is the hypocrite as he is the one that openly despises Uncle Joe yet is happy to get into bed with him when it suits.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:58 am

    ...& who got the first operational Jet bomber as well as Jet fighter??

    That is irrelevant. It is like saying China had the first rockets so it must be the first country to launch satellites and have the best rocket technology now.

    care to see the last documentary where UK keenly hunted for Hitler aviation engineers & jet engine prototypes & US did the same work but in a different category>>Nuclear/Rocket scientists.

    Of course they did, but again that means nothing. They had no idea what the Nazis had achieved and probably assumed they had better engines. Once they examined them they would have found their engines were not that great and British engine technology was better.

    Do you think it was Nazi nuclear scientists that completed the nuclear bombs for the US or was it a large group of people speaking all sorts of funny european languages that were sent to the US to do it?

    Soviets then had no operational rocket building society in any sense; although I do believe that Soviets did great in the post-war scenario & out-beat the allies in the space/propulsion race.

    The Soviets had plenty of experimental and operational rockets, they just hadn't focused on large long range ballistic rockets like the Germans had because they had had no need. They had plenty of aerial and ground launched artillery rockets already well in service... in fact they were the first country to use a rocket fired from an aircraft in conflict.

    Had Stalin not be so notorious the German scientists would have been working for Soviets & not the allies.

    And if the allies ever considered their own high morals on the issue most of those German scientists would have been shot for the crimes they supported.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  Aramonik on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:09 am

    nightcrawler wrote:@Aramonik
    Churchill wasn't the hypocrite it was the Stalin who was the real hypocrite

    Then please explain; September 1, 1939.
    Germany invades Poland
    Red Army also invades Poland.
    England declares war on Germany.
    England no declaration of War against Russia.
    Russia occupies more of Poland than the Germans.

    Why no declaration of War against Russia? scratch
    Churchill hypocrite


    Great thread.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  Ogannisyan8887 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:51 am

    Aramonik wrote:
    nightcrawler wrote:@Aramonik
    Churchill wasn't the hypocrite it was the Stalin who was the real hypocrite

    Then please explain; September 1, 1939.
    Germany invades Poland
    Red Army also invades Poland.
    England declares war on Germany.
    England no declaration of War against Russia.
    Russia occupies more of Poland than the Germans.

    Why no declaration of War against Russia? scratch
    Churchill hypocrite



    Great thread.


    I think the reason why Churchill didn't declare war on the Soviet Union is because Germany was much bigger treat to UK at the time, than the soviets and because Britain couldn't really hope to fight the USSR anyway.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:38 pm

    @Garry

    That is irrelevant. It is like saying China had the first rockets so it must be the first country to launch satellites and have the best rocket technology now.
    Of course they did, but again that means nothing. They had no idea what the Nazis had achieved and probably assumed they had better engines. Once they examined them they would have found their engines were not that great and British engine technology was better.

    Do you think it was Nazi nuclear scientists that completed the nuclear bombs for the US or was it a large group of people speaking all sorts of funny european languages that were sent to the US to do it?
    One cannot compare Chinese fireworks with the machines like V1&V2; & one also can't prove that Soviets possessed any machines of such a magnitude with proper propulsion system as well as complicated gyroscope naviagtion system; plz do provide proof that such system was possessed by any powers but the Nazis...
    Regarding Jet engines one can also proof that nt only engine but the swept wing configuration readily impressed Soviet & allies & the resulting Sabre & MiG-15 proof my point; Soviets sorry to say used British engines onboard these MiGs...also British after smuggling large amounts of literature/scientists optimised their Jet engines & had they approved of their domestic Jet engines why didn't they start production??
    Regarding Nuclear technology one knows the popular origins of Einstein & Hissenberg. Via espionage Soviets got their nuclear technology...

    And if the allies ever considered their own high morals on the issue most of those German scientists would have been shot for the crimes they supported.
    Agreed. But the scientists may have been forced to develop such weapons for Hitler & you knw better why if they refused Hitler...
    In conclusion German engineers were top-notch of 1940s
    - The V1 is the historic mother of all cruise missiles.
    - The A4 (V2) is not only the first ballistic missile but also the
    first object to ever enter space.
    - The HO229 was the first aircraft with stealth capabilities

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:54 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]
    Churchill wasn't the hypocrite it was the Stalin who was the real hypocrite & a very disdainful person.

    Stalin was a brute that thought scientists and most other people were lazy and only worked well when under threat of death.

    Mind if you tell me things other than scientists which that fanatic person did for his absolute POWER. what about Stalin purges & his Oh God..Ukrainian famine

    Churchil was a real Jerk who thought colonialism was the colonial power doing the the colonised country a favour by taking control of it and fleecing it of all its useful assets and then moving on to the next country.
    He didn't & never did butchered masses



    Everybody whines about Poland!!! Look at a map from WWI or before and point to me where it says Poland... Poland didn't even exist then.

    Stalin went to the British to see what sort of agreement he could get before WWII had even started and the British told him to go talk to the Polish. The Soviets went to the Polish, but if you look at the history of the region Poland stole land from the Russians/Soviets weakened from WWI and their revolution and openly fought with them up till about 1921 or so, so the Polish didn't want a treaty with the Soviets... they turned to the Germans for protection from the Soviets.
    The Commonwealth ceased to exist in 1795 as the Polish lands were partitioned among the Kingdom of Prussia, the Russian Empire, and Austria. Poland regained its independence as the Second Polish Republic in 1918. See Poland existed well before WW1; it may have been weakened & conquered by said forces but nonetheless to say that it existed & had different people/customs/language than Soviets.


    Having been rejected by both countries Stalin was approached by the Germans with an agreement that would give him half of Poland and keep German forces that distance further from Moscow. In absence of any offer from anyone else he took the German offer of a NON AGGRESSION Pact.

    Note NON AGGRESSION pact. The US and UK currently don't have a non aggression pact because real allies don't need agreements that outline what each can pinch without infringing on the interests of the other.

    Stalin was not a hypocrite to sign the pact with Germany... he would have been an idiot not to. Poland was no ally of the Soviets and the UK were not much better.
    NON AGGRESSION Pact hehehe we know better what the NKVD & SS looted the smaller Balkan states & Poland. The notion that Stalin got closed to Hitler was the urge of expanding his empire via any means & not bz British was insincere or something & guess what Nazis didnt prove to be rather good friends

    When Hitler started fingering Stalin a$$ he only then realised how to befriend allies;


    Churchil compared Stalin to the devil... he was hardly an ally.
    What support did he get from his allies?
    Lend lease was not free and was payed for.
    Actually it was Churchil that is the hypocrite as he is the one that openly despises Uncle Joe yet is happy to get into bed with him when it suits.
    ...& Stalin never used derogatory remarks for Capitalist West??

    While the western allies p!ssed around in North Africa and Italy the Soviets were fighting the real war... if the Brits and Americans had really wanted to fight Germany they could have launched D Day in 1942. They would have taken a lot more casualties but then they might have pushed the Germans back to their borders and freed Eastern Europe too and been in a much better position during the Cold war.
    But instead they were happy to let the Soviets suffer... is it any surprise the Soviets used Eastern Europe as a buffer zone to NATO so that they wouldn't suffer ground fighting like that again?
    When you dance with the Devil things ^^ are bound to happen. Stalin in the first place befriend Nazis to gulp more land & then he got with Germans attacking his frontlines




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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:35 am

    One cannot compare Chinese fireworks with the machines like V1&V2; & one also can't prove that Soviets possessed any machines of such a magnitude with proper propulsion system as well as complicated gyroscope naviagtion system; plz do provide proof that such system was possessed by any powers but the Nazis...

    First of all their gyroscope guidance was rubbish and allowed them the accuracy to target only enormous targets like London with very little accuracy.

    The Soviets and US had already developed basic unmanned aircraft that could be called cruise missiles but they weren't interested in targeting London and any target smaller would be very safe so they dropped the programs till the guidance improved.

    The Nazis developed big rockets from a need through a lack of large long range 4 engine bombers. The Luftwaffe was just the direct fire support arm of the Army and was mostly single and twin engine aircraft designed to support Army operations. They didn't even know how to fight another air power as shown in the Battle of Britain.

    The Nazis were ahead during WWII in ballistic missiles because that is what their focus was, when in the immediate post war period the Soviets got their hands on V-2s over a similar time period that the Nazis took to develop a weapon with less range than a Scud and much worse accuracy (1936-1944) the Soviets were able to develop the R-7 ICBM (work started in 1953 and the operational missile was deployed in 1959).
    If the R-7 was built using German standard practise it would have been a much smaller much lower performing missile.

    The Nazis had a lead because no one was in that race at the time. Once everyone else entered the race the Nazi technology was quickly left behind.

    Regarding Jet engines one can also proof that nt only engine but the swept wing configuration readily impressed Soviet & allies & the resulting Sabre & MiG-15 proof my point;

    The swept wing on the Me-262 was an accident and didn't really make much difference to the aircrafts performance because it was no where near transonic. It could have made a difference if it was produced in numbers but there was no fuel supply that could have supported extra numbers even if Hitler didn't divert his designers by demanding a fighter bomber role for the Me-262 instead of making it a pure fighter.

    The Sabre and Mig-15 needed swept wings because of their higher speed performance made swept wings more useful.

    Soviets sorry to say used British engines onboard these MiGs...also British after smuggling large amounts of literature/scientists optimised their Jet engines & had they approved of their domestic Jet engines why didn't they start production??

    If they didn't start production where would the Soviets have bought the Derwent and Nene engines from?
    The Soviets had plenty of Nazi jet engines so if the Nazi engines were so superior why would they drop them like hot rocks given the chance to buy British engines?

    The simple facts are that German engines burned a lot of fuel, had very short engine operation lives and weren't very powerful for their weight and fuel consumption.
    Perfectly understandable considering they are first generation engines in their class but clearly not the best available in 1945.

    The Soviets made the sensible choice to licence produce two British jet engines rather than to use their own engines or the captured German engines. The Soviets had actually focussed on rocket engines to boost speed in propeller driven engined aircraft, which led to a dead end. They were still able to produce the Mig-15 at a time when Britain and France and Germany were still stuck largely with propeller driven fighters and the standard US jet was a straight wing shooting star of much lower performance and were only just working on the new Sabre that was the only comparable jet in the world.

    Via espionage Soviets got their nuclear technology...

    First rule of war... there are no rules.

    - The V1 is the historic mother of all cruise missiles.

    The first in service, but not the only one in development.

    - The A4 (V2) is not only the first ballistic missile but also the
    first object to ever enter space.

    Developed by a desperate state that couldn't design 4 engined bombers quickly enough.
    Otherwise a complete waste of money and effort without an accurate guidance and a powerful enough warhead.

    - The HO229 was the first aircraft with stealth capabilities

    Rubbish.

    From Wiki:

    Early examples of true flying wings include:

    * The Soviet Vladimir Antonovich Chizhevskij and Boris Ivanovich Cheranovsky designed what were then known as motorized gliders or tailless flying wings with a speed of 178km/h[9] from 1924.
    * The French Charles Fauvel designed the AV3 glider, successfully flown in 1933,[10] featuring a self-stabilizing airfoil on a straight wing.[citation needed]
    * The German Horten H1 glider flown with partial success in 1933, and the subsequent H2 flown successfully in both glider and powered variants.[11]
    * The American Freel Flying Wing glider flown in 1937.[citation needed]
    * The American Northrop N-1M of 1940[12]
    * The British Armstrong Whitworth A.W.52G of 1944, a glider test bed[13] for the later Armstrong Whitworth A.W.52 jet-powered version.[14]
    * The German Horten Ho 229 of 1945 - the world's first twin jet engine pure flying wing

    Note the Horten is last on the list of flying wings and while naturally stealthy a flying wing is not stealth. They didn't know enough about radar at the time to even start to think about materials and shaping to make an aircraft design stealthy.

    Mind if you tell me things other than scientists which that fanatic person did for his absolute POWER. what about Stalin purges & his Oh God..Ukrainian famine

    That is rubbish. Stalin did what Mugabe has done to Zimbabwe... in both cases when you take large relatively efficient farms and break them up into little farms owned by people who don't have the interest or resources to maximise yields to increase production to feed the country you suddenly get lots of small inefficient farms that don't produce the food surplus they used to. SHOCK! HORROR! This leads to a food shortage, and in serious food shortages SHOCK! HORROR! People go without food. Depriving people of food leads to localised Famine. The difference between the Soviet Union and Zimbabwe is that neighbouring countries could sell them food so they start to import food whereas the Soviets didn't.
    It wasn't a Ukrainian famine... it was a famine that effected all the Soviet states but as many crop farms are in the ukraine they felt it worse than other states.

    He didn't & never did butchered masses

    He was part of a colonial power that invented the concentration camp... in Africa. Hello black mr zulu man do as we say or we introduce you to mr Maxim Machine Gun... now give us all your land.

    If Churchil had his way you would still be part of India and India would still be under British rule. And right now when they are cutting back on everything what they would actually be doing is sucking India dry of anything of value to keep the home country going.

    The Commonwealth ceased to exist in 1795 as the Polish lands were partitioned among the Kingdom of Prussia, the Russian Empire, and Austria. Poland regained its independence as the Second Polish Republic in 1918. See Poland existed well before WW1; it may have been weakened & conquered by said forces but nonetheless to say that it existed & had different people/customs/language than Soviets.

    How do you know? The Soviets included 13 republics and Russia alone has hundreds of different cultural and ethnic groups. Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland have different people/customs/language to the English. What is your point?
    If Poland wanted freedom it should have fought for it like anyone else. Poland has no special rights to exist any more than any other country does.

    NON AGGRESSION Pact hehehe we know better what the NKVD & SS looted the smaller Balkan states & Poland.

    Why shouldn't they? After WWI Poland was happy to take land from Russia. When the Germans invaded Czechoslovakia Poland snuck in and took a piece too. The Baltic states had no problems finding volunteers to kill jews and all sorts of other groups when given the chance... in many cases they were worse than the nazis, and I am not sure what you mean by the Balkans as the Soviets didn't do very much down there.

    The notion that Stalin got closed to Hitler was the urge of expanding his empire via any means & not bz British was insincere or something & guess what Nazis didnt prove to be rather good friends

    As I said before the Soviets and Germans weren't friends. A non aggression pact would not have needed to have been signed if they were friends... a verbal agreement would have done.

    BTW when the Japanese found out that the Germans had signed an agreement with the Soviets they realised they couldn't trust the Germans so when Germany started asking the Japanese to start a second front in the Soviet Union they refused. That saved the Soviets a lot of problems.

    Stalin was given a choice... get half of Poland... and move your forces a few hundred kms further away from Moscow... or get nothing and have German forces on Polands border with a potential conflict with Germany.
    The British were no help and could be no help because they had no way of directly intervening. The war might have started with the German invasion of Poland but nothing actually happened because Germany and Britain were separated from each other... they actually named it the Phoney War.

    ...& Stalin never used derogatory remarks for Capitalist West??

    Churchil is the west? As Churchil said... History will be kind to me, because I intend to write it myself... and he did. There is a reason he comes out smelling of roses in the west.

    Stalin in the first place befriend Nazis to gulp more land & then he got with Germans attacking his frontlines

    Get it into your head... Stalin was an A hole... he didn't trust anyone. He had no friends.

    The reason he didn't act when the Germans invaded and had his forces ordered to not respond to enemy attack was because he was sure it was all a British plot to start a war between the Soviets and the Germans so that the British could sit and watch the two sides rip each other apart. In the end he wasn't far wrong because that is what Britain did... sat on its ar$e and let the real fighting occur on the Eastern Front.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:39 am

    First of all their gyroscope guidance was rubbish and allowed them the accuracy to target only enormous targets like London with very little accuracy.

    The Soviets and US had already developed basic unmanned aircraft that could be called cruise missiles but they weren't interested in targeting London and any target smaller would be very safe so they dropped the programs till the guidance improved.
    Rubbish or what it was the only existing navigation suite & no one had it be allies or be it Soviets. Like you stated 1st gen jet engines were underpowered why don't you accept the similar argument for navigation suite.
    The Nazis developed big rockets from a need through a lack of large long range 4 engine bombers. The Luftwaffe was just the direct fire support arm of the Army and was mostly single and twin engine aircraft designed to support Army operations. They didn't even know how to fight another air power as shown in the Battle of Britain.

    The Nazis were ahead during WWII in ballistic missiles because that is what their focus was, when in the immediate post war period the Soviets got their hands on V-2s over a similar time period that the Nazis took to develop a weapon with less range than a Scud and much worse accuracy (1936-1944) the Soviets were able to develop the R-7 ICBM (work started in 1953 and the operational missile was deployed in 1959).
    If the R-7 was built using German standard practise it would have been a much smaller much lower performing missile.

    From the automobile industry to aviation Nazis did outclass Soviets in any profile though save it for allies. Regarding the bomber prospects it was Hitler who wanted these large birds had he focused on the jets the results would have been different but you cannot blame Nazis engineering over the debunked Hitler offensive-only strategy.
    The Nazis had a lead because no one was in that race at the time. Once everyone else entered the race the Nazi technology was quickly left behind.
    I ain't talking that others were dumb but stats do prove that Nazis beated all in the scientific era up till the 1940s. Patents Nobel prizes prove my point.
    The swept wing on the Me-262 was an accident and didn't really make much difference to the aircrafts performance because it was no where near transonic. It could have made a difference if it was produced in numbers but there was no fuel supply that could have supported extra numbers even if Hitler didn't divert his designers by demanding a fighter bomber role for the Me-262 instead of making it a pure fighter.

    The Sabre and Mig-15 needed swept wings because of their higher speed performance made swept wings more useful.
    you again are comparing strategy of Hitler with German scientific achievements. Also such accidents as you put it happen during lots of research work when scientists accidentally proclaim EUREKA!! Regarding speed/planform correlation one can say that what German produced the highest speed plane I don't care it was under-powered but it was their to prove future prospects of plane designing & such was followed in Sabre & MiG-15.
    First rule of war... there are no rules.
    De-railing
    The first in service, but not the only one in development.
    in development....
    Developed by a desperate state that couldn't design 4 engined bombers quickly enough.
    Otherwise a complete waste of money and effort without an accurate guidance and a powerful enough warhead.
    Necessity is the mother of invention. Couldn't design as you say mind if you look at the Nazi literature & what they designed & mathematically modelled as Silver-Bird & the UFO air-propulsion system; such were the great minds of their scientists.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbervogel
    Note the Horten is last on the list of flying wings and while naturally stealthy a flying wing is not stealth. They didn't know enough about radar at the time to even start to think about materials and shaping to make an aircraft design stealthy.
    I know; but blended-wing technology was copied in latter designs of B-2. Regarding stealth ok maybe that wasn't in the Nazis mind but they must be credited for placing two engines embedded in wings in a tailess configuration.

    That is rubbish. Stalin did what Mugabe has done to Zimbabwe... in both cases when you take large relatively efficient farms and break them up into little farms owned by people who don't have the interest or resources to maximise yields to increase production to feed the country you suddenly get lots of small inefficient farms that don't produce the food surplus they used to. SHOCK! HORROR! This leads to a food shortage, and in serious food shortages SHOCK! HORROR! People go without food. Depriving people of food leads to localised Famine. The difference between the Soviet Union and Zimbabwe is that neighbouring countries could sell them food so they start to import food whereas the Soviets didn't.
    It wasn't a Ukrainian famine... it was a famine that effected all the Soviet states but as many crop farms are in the ukraine they felt it worse than other states.
    Total BS he took out grains from Ukrainians & sent them partly to East Germany as a Soviet response to Marshall plan in the West Germany. Though he outlawed Eugenic principles; he practised it upon the Ukrainians in a hypocrite way.
    With respect to Churchill my claim stands.
    He didn't & never did butchered masses
    Regarding Poland:
    How do you know?

    Quoted from WIKI.
    After WWI Poland was happy to take land from Russia.
    Slight adjustment to your statement After WWI Poland was happy to re-take land from Russia.
    Regarding Stalin
    Stalin was an A hole
    I would prefer if you write fully Stalin was a a$$hole. Look I repeat here you dance with the Devil you get the same hell-fire. As opposed to your statements there exists documented videos showing how friendly the NKVD &SS were; how the Germans leased their naval ships to Russians & again helped them to root away the devilish Capitalism & how both dictators yearn to carve new European map divided b/w them

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:13 am

    Rubbish or what it was the only existing navigation suite & no one had it be allies or be it Soviets.

    Navigation suite? The V-1 flew with a gyro keeping it flying straight and level and a simple counting machine that counted off distance very roughly... when a certain number was reached it cut the fuel line and the horizontal control lines and the missile went into a dive. It couldn't be used against anything short of a small country because its accuracy was pathetic.
    The V-2 was not much better... fired from a fixed location it flew up under rocket power and came back down under the power of gravity. Again a small country or a very large city like London had to be the target because accuracy was pathetic. Calling it a navigation suite is like calling a stick in the mud with the sunlight shining on it a Swiss Watch. Sure it could give some indication of the time but there is no comparison between a sundial and a mechanical watch mechanism.

    Like you stated 1st gen jet engines were underpowered why don't you accept the similar argument for navigation suite.

    Because it is not a navigation suite... is it more like the elevation settings on a long range artillery piece except the artillery piece is so much more accurate due to the shorter range and shorter flight period meaning the projectile is less effected by crosswind and other external influences.

    From the automobile industry to aviation Nazis did outclass Soviets in any profile though save it for allies.

    From tanks to planes the Soviets outproduced and out designed the Nazis. The La-5FN was better than any propeller driven German fighter, and the Yak-3 was good enough to even take on the jets, and the jets were never produced in numbers significant enough to bother the Soviets. Same with tanks the T-34/85 was good enough and produced in enough numbers to win the war. On paper some German heavy tanks looked wonderful but in practise they were not produced in significant numbers to make a difference. When Soviet heavy tanks like the IS series were in the same weight class as the German medium tanks like the Panther it is clear whose tanks were better. A late model Panther is heavier than a T-90.

    Regarding the bomber prospects it was Hitler who wanted these large birds had he focused on the jets the results would have been different but you cannot blame Nazis engineering over the debunked Hitler offensive-only strategy.

    You make it sound like Hitler and the Nazis were different things???
    Hitler was their leader and they did as they were told... if Hitler was wrong then the Nazis were wrong.

    Patents Nobel prizes prove my point.

    Nobel prizes don't mean much of anything at all. And they lost the war... you'd think they would have had the brains to stop at Poland or France, but they were not smart.

    Also such accidents as you put it happen during lots of research work when scientists accidentally proclaim EUREKA!! Regarding speed/planform correlation one can say that what German produced the highest speed plane I don't care it was under-powered but it was their to prove future prospects of plane designing & such was followed in Sabre & MiG-15.

    I call the swept wings on the Me-262 an accident because it was. They needed to shift the centre of gravity of the aircraft backwards to improve performance and they did that by sweeping the wings back to move the engines back without changing the wing structure where the wing joins the fuselage. It was an accident.

    Necessity is the mother of invention. Couldn't design as you say mind if you look at the Nazi literature & what they designed & mathematically modelled as Silver-Bird & the UFO air-propulsion system; such were the great minds of their scientists.

    Well in that case the Soviets were ahead of the Nazis in Rocket technology then too.

    Just look up and read a little about Konstantin Tsiolkovsky... he was years ahead of his time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky

    Regarding stealth ok maybe that wasn't in the Nazis mind but they must be credited for placing two engines embedded in wings in a tailess configuration.

    And where do you think Northrop put their engines in their pre WWII efforts at flying wings? A flying wing by definition has no tail or fuselage so where else would they put the engines?

    Total BS he took out grains from Ukrainians & sent them partly to East Germany as a Soviet response to Marshall plan in the West Germany.

    I think you are a little confused... West Germany and East Germany didn't exist till the end of WWII when the country was split. The famine in the Ukraine and the Soviet Union happened in the 1930s.

    With respect to Churchill my claim stands.
    He didn't & never did butchered masses

    Your hero happily signed Eastern Europe over to the Soviets during WWII to make sure the Soviets would fight against German and not seek some sort of peace agreement.

    Your hero happily used Nazis and Japanese soldiers in the Asian, African, and European theatres in the immediate post war period to ensure the colonial states still under British and French rule stayed in line and did as was told.

    He was no Stalin, but he was certainly happy to get right into bed with Stalin when it suited him.

    As opposed to your statements there exists documented videos showing how friendly the NKVD &SS were; how the Germans leased their naval ships to Russians & again helped them to root away the devilish Capitalism & how both dictators yearn to carve new European map divided b/w them

    Even assuming you are right... look at how quickly the allies jumped into bed with the West Germans and Japanese after the war had ended. Were there no bad Japanese? Were all the bad Germans in East Germany... and if so why did the west treat people escaping from East Germany as victims?

    Germany and Japans crimes were practically forgotten overnight apart from that little show trial at Nuremberg... they didn't even bother for the Japanese despite crimes like the rape of Nanking, and close to 15 years of brutal military occupation of China.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  Aramonik on Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:02 pm






    nightcrawler
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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:12 pm

    Because it is not a navigation suite... is it more like the elevation settings on a long range artillery piece except the artillery piece is so much more accurate due to the shorter range and shorter flight period meaning the projectile is less effected by crosswind and other external influences.

    Look you are asserting that sand-glass in previous times wasn't a watch!! It was a watch because there occurred no other alternative in those days but it still was time-measuring instrument. Gyroscope handling is extremely difficult you can see gyroscope animations & you willnt understand its movement at first sight. So yes it was the only existing guidance system available that was put to use by Nazis & no other nation...

    You make it sound like Hitler and the Nazis were different things???
    Hitler was their leader and they did as they were told... if Hitler was wrong then the Nazis were wrong.
    Nobel prizes don't mean much of anything at all. And they lost the war... you'd think they would have had the brains to stop at Poland or France, but they were not smart

    I clarified myself by stating that one can't compare strategy with technology. I am talking about [in context] Nazi technical people that include its scientists/engineers & not the Nazi politics. Hitler could have given more consideration to Jet production [a thing that Germans can easily achieve] but he always took to offensive by ordering more & more bombers.

    I call the swept wings on the Me-262 an accident because it was. They needed to shift the centre of gravity of the aircraft backwards to improve performance and they did that by sweeping the wings back to move the engines back without changing the wing structure where the wing joins the fuselage. It was an accident.

    Accidents like these do occur quiet often & can win you a nobel prize you can ask Marie Curie!! Speed was a factor German scientist intentional sweep wings to reduce drag which surely was to occur in jet powered planes. are ou are saying that Germans were dumb enough that after they had designed Jet engines they don't take into account the best planform to suite the Jet speeds??

    Just look up and read a little about Konstantin Tsiolkovsky... he was years ahead of his time
    I admire it & I know a great deal about Tsiolkovky's eq. that I generously used in my university projects....& I expect from your side that you start admiring the Germans who utilised Soviet theoretical workings & fabricated a working machine with no-parallel ~~V2


    I think you are a little confused... West Germany and East Germany didn't exist till the end of WWII when the country was split. The famine in the Ukraine and the Soviet Union happened in the 1930s.
    I apologise for messing up the dates; but still the essence is simple that Stalin was barbaric & its a form of Genocide/Eugenics whatever you call it

    Your hero happily signed Eastern Europe over to the Soviets during WWII to make sure the Soviets would fight against German and not seek some sort of peace agreement.

    Your hero
    happily used Nazis and Japanese soldiers in the Asian, African, and European theatres in the immediate post war period to ensure the colonial states still under British and French rule stayed in line and did as was told.

    He was no Stalin, but he was certainly happy to get right into bed with Stalin when it suited him.
    ...& where did I say my hero. you don't understand when I have to choose lesser of the two evils. With respect to Churchill my claim stands.
    He didn't & never did butchered masses

    Even assuming you are right... look at how quickly the allies jumped into bed with the West Germans and Japanese after the war had ended. Were there no bad Japanese? Were all the bad Germans in East Germany... and if so why did the west treat people escaping from East Germany as victims?

    Germany and Japans crimes were practically forgotten overnight apart from that little show trial at Nuremberg... they didn't even bother for the Japanese despite crimes like the rape of Nanking, and close to 15 years of brutal military occupation of China.
    Talking about the Japanese; NKVD also wasn't tried in anyway & they were buried as USSR heroes ~~case balanced

    In addition:
    If you have seen the documentaries & footages of post-war era one can have a strong view of the Stalin's attention-seeking personality. May it be Czechoslovakia; Poland; Yugoslavia wherever Soviets marched & rallied I can see the Stalins portrait everywhere >>on the walls; banners; T-shirts but if you closely compare such wasn't the case in allied countries. He was a psycho


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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:30 am

    First of all the MAUS was junk... and like a lot of secret nazi super weapons was a complete waste of time money and effort. Even if they got it into production they would have been able to make less than 30 of them and when they would be being made the enemy had air superiority so their life span would be measured in hours.

    It was the same with rail guns... for the cost and time and materials and men it took to make one rail gun they could have made 1,000 fighters and 1,000 bombers and while 7 ton shells sounds impressive firing once a day is not so impressive.

    If they had continued to make panzer IVs and forgot about Tigers and Panthers then at least they would have had numbers of tanks and relied on superior tactics to beat their enemies.

    The time and effort and money and material and men wasted on super weapons shortened the war by a significant margin in the favour of the allies.

    Look you are asserting that sand-glass in previous times wasn't a watch!!

    A sundial records the passage of time but try strapping it to your wrist. Try getting the fraction of a second accuracy needed for a real navigation device.
    The so called navigation suite was simply a counter attached to a small propeller that was spun by the passing air on a V-1 to determine when to cut the engine and controls to make the aircraft dive on target.

    It was a watch because there occurred no other alternative in those days but it still was time-measuring instrument.

    Not true. In WWII there were plenty of wrist watches and very complex mechanical that could have been used to more accurately determine range and greatly improve accuracy... but the cost and complexity wasn't warranted... they called it V for Vengence and it was their way of getting back at the west for the strategic bombing... which also wasn't very accurate, so they wanted it to be indiscriminate... it was a terror weapon. They wanted the enemy to hear it coming and to have them straining their ears to hear when the engine stopped and seconds later the explosion... all part of the design.

    Gyroscope handling is extremely difficult you can see gyroscope animations & you willnt understand its movement at first sight. So yes it was the only existing guidance system available that was put to use by Nazis & no other nation...

    WRONG. The Nazis didn't invent gyroscopes and many aircraft in WWII and before had a basic gyroscope based autopilot that would keep the plane on level flight in a specific heading.
    And it wasn't a guidance system. The weapons were fired at a specific direction and in the case of the V-1 would continue to fly till a counter counted down to zero and cut the engine and controls and it plunged into the ground. The V-2 used a gyroscope to fire it in the direction of London and knowing its max range and the distance to London led to a collision between the two. Neither could be considered guidance.

    Speed was a factor German scientist intentional sweep wings to reduce drag which surely was to occur in jet powered planes.

    The Me-262 wasn't fast enough for a swept wing to matter that much, but it did improve greatly the high speed handling... partly by improving cg and partly by improved airflow over the wing.

    It wasn't till post war aircraft like the Sabre and Mig-15 that compressibility became an issue and it wasn't so much a swept wing that was the issue then as the all moving horizontal tail surface.

    are ou are saying that Germans were dumb enough that after they had designed Jet engines they don't take into account the best planform to suite the Jet speeds??

    What I am saying is that the Germans were working on jet engines but didn't have any experience at manned supersonic flight just like the rest of the world and would only find out about supersonic aerodynamics by experiment like anyone else... of course they did it in the US after the war.

    I expect from your side that you start admiring the Germans who utilised Soviet theoretical workings & fabricated a working machine with no-parallel ~~V2

    The V-2 was Germanys B-17 and I have no admiration for the Nazis.

    I apologise for messing up the dates; but still the essence is simple that Stalin was barbaric & its a form of Genocide/Eugenics whatever you call it

    Sorry, Stalin was a scumbag, but it was the Nazis that were Genocial. Lets keep to reality here. It was the Nazis that wanted racial purity, to get rid of the Jews and the slavs and the gypsies and homosexuals and the communists and the physically and mentally handicapped.
    Stalin wasn't interested in race.

    you don't understand when I have to choose lesser of the two evils. With respect to Churchill my claim stands.
    He didn't & never did butchered masses

    So the choice is a man responsible for millions of deaths or a man happy to ally himself when it suits him with such a man for his own benefit... can I choose neither?

    Talking about the Japanese; NKVD also wasn't tried in anyway & they were buried as USSR heroes ~~case balanced

    The USSR wasn't tried because it won. It is only the losing side that is tried for war crimes. Otherwise the US probably would have had a few trials itself where japanese sailors were murdered in the water next to their sinking ships by Americans.

    The Japs didn't like taking prisoners or being taken prisoner which led to all sorts of crimes, but then I would think the mention of comfort girls as used by the Japanese Army is enough.

    BTW the western impression of the NKVD seems to suggest they killed more Soviets than the Germans did, but the reality is that they never had the mission the SS did of eradicating the untermention.

    If you have seen the documentaries & footages of post-war era one can have a strong view of the Stalin's attention-seeking personality. May it be Czechoslovakia; Poland; Yugoslavia wherever Soviets marched & rallied I can see the Stalins portrait everywhere >>on the walls; banners; T-shirts but if you closely compare such wasn't the case in allied countries. He was a psycho

    If attention seeking is a crime you are using to compare him with Hitler then hooray!... lets also add the moustache and the dark coloured hair... they must have been twins separated at birth... NOT.

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:19 am

    The time and effort and money and material and men wasted on super weapons shortened the war by a significant margin in the favour of the allies.
    Guess what they don't have too much manpower as is the case with the Soviets & the combined allies. Unlike the Soviets Germans emphasised quality over quantity & this is quiet understandable from their position.
    Not true. In WWII there were plenty of wrist watches and very complex mechanical that could have been used to more accurately determine range and greatly improve accuracy... but the cost and complexity wasn't warranted... they called it V for Vengence and it was their way of getting back at the west for the strategic bombing... which also wasn't very accurate, so they wanted it to be indiscriminate... it was a terror weapon. They wanted the enemy to hear it coming and to have them straining their ears to hear when the engine stopped and seconds later the explosion... all part of the design.
    [In context] I was saying that your argument of comparing present navigation systems with those present in 1940s & then declaring the latter as non-navigation systems is incorrect. When I said
    Look you are asserting that sand-glass in previous times wasn't a watch!!
    I said it figuratively!! & wasn't talking about WW2 era particularly.

    WRONG. The Nazis didn't invent gyroscopes and many aircraft in WWII and before had a basic gyroscope based autopilot that would keep the plane on level flight in a specific heading.
    And it wasn't a guidance system. The weapons were fired at a specific direction and in the case of the V-1 would continue to fly till a counter counted down to zero and cut the engine and controls and it plunged into the ground. The V-2 used a gyroscope to fire it in the direction of London and knowing its max range and the distance to London led to a collision between the two. Neither could be considered guidance.
    ..& where did I write they invented it?? I just said that they put it to use in guiding their missiles when no other practical form of guidance existed. I have seen a documentary where it was stated that the V1/2 rudders were linked & controlled by the Gyroscopes so doesnt it make them Gyroscopically guided machines??
    Automatic Pilot
    This consists of three air-driven gyros (a master gyro and two secondary gyros). The master gyro controls both elevators and rudder through pneumatic servos. The secondary gyros provide damping against oscillations. The master gyroscope will maintain its axis of rotation in a fixed direction for a long period of time. It thus provides a definite fixed direction in the aircraft, and any deviation from a pre-set course is detected by the gyroscope, witch moves the control surface through the pneumatic servos to correct the deviation.
    http://www.zenza.se/vw/
    I repeat doesnt this feedback mechanism constituted the only existing Guidance system then...just accept it

    What I am saying is that the Germans were working on jet engines but didn't have any experience at manned supersonic flight just like the rest of the world and would only find out about supersonic aerodynamics by experiment like anyone else... of course they did it in the US after the war.
    What did you mean by saying no prior experience Laughing
    Sir if you would know they built the first operation jet plane so surely no one had any prior manned experience

    The Me-262 wasn't fast enough for a swept wing to matter that much, but it did improve greatly the high speed handling... partly by improving cg and partly by improved airflow over the wing.

    It wasn't till post war aircraft like the Sabre and Mig-15 that compressibility became an issue and it wasn't so much a swept wing that was the issue then as the all moving horizontal tail surface.
    you again are asserting tht Germans didn't know & never pay heed to planform/speed correlation.
    They intentionally adopted swept wing to suite the speed generated by their jet engine. It doesnt matter it was fast enough what does matter it was relatively the fastest!!

    I have no admiration for the Nazis.
    you mean politicians or the scientist/engineers??

    Stalin wasn't interested in race.
    This was also an era of mass epidemics in the growing urban centers. The obsession within racist ideologies on finding scapegoats, the excessive valuing of ethnic authenticity and purity, denouncing “mixing” and defending against contamination from “outsiders” to the group resonated with society-widephobias. But it would be a mistake to connect the dehumanizing frames inherentin genocide to one historical era. Dehumanization, whatever the time or context,necessitates the use of non-human ascriptive labels: Nazi extermination of Jewish“vermin”, Soviet “liquidation” of “kulak spiders”, Pol Pot’s crushing of “worms”,the Hutu killing of “cockroaches”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
    Lemkin’s notion that genocide could also be applied to the
    extermination of “social collectivities” was dropped, for this was seen as a euphemism for “class war” by the USSR. The Nuremburg Trials’ inclusion of “political” groups in the crime of “extermination” was also abandoned. The Stalinist regime of the Soviet Union had conducted in the early 1930s one of the worst (in numerical terms) genocides in history by its extermination of “kulaks” (nominally “wealthy peasants”), which included the Holodomor famine
    genocide in Ukraine (Conquest, 1987). Due to the USSR’s opposition to the inclusion of “political” groups as a protected category, and to secure the passing of the Convention at the General Assembly, its framers settled on a narrow definition of the groups covered and thereby intentionally excluded not only political, but also cultural linguistic and socio-economic groups (Whitaker Report, 1985). The Holodomor genocide is an example of the paradoxical politicization of genocide that has been shaped by the narrow framing of the definition in the Convention. The Ukrainian peasantry was not specifically or disproportionally targeted by Stalinist dekulakization, which ravaged the Soviet peasantry in general, but the exclusion of political and social groups from the definition forced Ukrainian claimants to construct these historical events in national and ethnic terms.
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/26063/1/Genocide_and_ethnic_conflict_%28LSERO_version%29.doc.pdf&chrome=true
    Enough said; just over view the bold letters

    So the choice is a man responsible for millions of deaths or a man happy to ally himself when it suits him with such a man for his own benefit... can I choose neither?
    ...to stop & prevent any further deaths in Europe
    With respect to Churchill my claim stands.
    He didn't & never did butchered masses

    The USSR wasn't tried because it won. It is only the losing side that is tried for war crimes. Otherwise the US probably would have had a few trials itself where japanese sailors were murdered in the water next to their sinking ships by Americans.
    Like I said case-balanced; History is written by the Victors...
    If attention seeking is a crime you are using to compare him with Hitler then hooray!... lets also add the moustache and the dark coloured hair... they must have been twins separated at birth... NOT.

    Now compare him with Churchill or any allied president study

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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:07 am


    Guess what they don't have too much manpower as is the case with the Soviets & the combined allies. Unlike the Soviets Germans emphasised quality over quantity & this is quiet understandable from their position.

    It was part of their downfall. They over engineered everything... their Panthers were designed to last 30-40 years when in practise if they had designed them to last 10-15 years they could have made a lot more of them faster.

    If they had kept the Panzer IV in production with the late model gun and produced it in the numbers needed they would have been in a much better position. It was the same with aircraft... producing more FW-190s and keeping the Me-262s as fighters only and concentrating on fighters that could deal with bombers but fly at speeds where they didn't need to worry about enemy fighters would have made a difference.

    The only technology that might have saved them was denied to them because of their racist ideology. So many of the mathematicians and physicists they needed to make a nuke were Jews so all their work was rejected.

    I said it figuratively!! & wasn't talking about WW2 era particularly.

    A sun dial lets you divide the day into angles but it is not particularly accurate and is certainly not accurate enough for precise navigation... especially on a cloudy day.

    A watch with a compass and a map can easily be used for fairly accurate navigation, but we are not even talking about this... the V-1 was pointed in a specific direction and launched with a count down timer to make it hit something in London. The V-2 was pretty much the same and was designed to fly in a general direction to a general distance to land inside a very very large area.

    ..& where did I write they invented it?? I just said that they put it to use in guiding their missiles when no other practical form of guidance existed. I have seen a documentary where it was stated that the V1/2 rudders were linked & controlled by the Gyroscopes so doesnt it make them Gyroscopically guided machines??

    A gyroscope is a spinning wheel that resists the angular movements of its outer case. It shows you the position you were in (as in orientation, not physical location) when it was started up. It is used to tell what angle you should be facing now and based on a known or estimated flight speed it can be used with a clock for very basic navigation.

    In other words you start up the gyro and once it is stabilised and running you have a fixed initial orientation. For a V-2 this will record for the missile which direction is up and down. Launch the rocket and you can use the gyro to angle the flight of the rocket in a specific direction because the gyro will show up and down, a compass will show magnetic north and magnetic south and a simple timer will tell you your flight time. The known weight and thrust of the rocket will tell you its speed over the course of the flight.
    The gyro will keep indicating which way is up and which way is down so the flight controls of the rocket will keep the rocket on a ballistic path towards the target area and stop the rocket from going into a nose dive while it has the power to manouver and it retains the power to manouver as long as it has fuel and the rocket engine is burning.

    Preparing to fire the missile all you do is input what angle the V-2 should fly at while the rocket engine is burning. Depending on the distance to the target that might be a steep climb with a steep dive to the target for a close target and a long shallower climb with likely a shallow dive angle for a longer range target. It takes not account of windspeed, the earths rotation etc etc... it just climbs at an angle and falls back at an angle and the reason it hits the target is because the target is freaken enormous.

    With the V-1 it is similar the gyro is used to determine up from down and a compass is used to keep the missile flying in the correct direction to the target. A timer that is set based on the flight range to the target and the known flight speed of the missile is used to ensure the missile hits the ground somewhere within the boundaries of the target.

    The gyro is part of the autopilot in the sense that it keeps the V-1 flying straight and level and the V-2 flying upwards at the correct angle.

    I repeat doesnt this feedback mechanism constituted the only existing Guidance system then...just accept it

    Accept what? A gyro is a wheel that is set spinning that resists the subsequent movements of the container it is contained in. Set a gyro running and whatever its orientation is it will retain no matter what way you roll or turn the container it is in. Think of a spinning top... you can change the angle of the surface it is spinning on but the top remains vertical... all these so called super guidance systems do is measure the difference in angle of the aircraft with the angle of the spinning wheel in the gyro and use the control surfaces of the aircraft the gyro is mounted in to keep the aircraft at a certain angle. This work in Germany might seem amazing to you, but before these weapons went into service far more complicated and impressive mechanical systems were being put in bombers so that when over the target area the bomb aiming computer controlled the aircraft much like these German systems did and calculated the release point for bombs. What the Germans did was not amazing and impressive at the time regarding guidance systems... in fact the only amazing thing is that these weapons worked despite how unimpressive their aiming systems were.

    What did you mean by saying no prior experience Laughing
    Sir if you would know they built the first operation jet plane so surely no one had any prior manned experience

    What I mean is that no aircraft during the WWII period was capable of flying at supersonic speeds so the problems of supersonic speed were unknown at the time. Suggesting the Me-262 were super advanced with their swept wings is a mistake because it had nothing to do with the reason modern aircraft have swept wings. They didn't know that drag increases dramatically near the speed of sound and that a swept wing would delay that drag and allow a large wing to be used.
    Obviously a straight wing could be used but it has to be small like on the X-1 and the F-104 and that the best solution to sonic and near sonic flight is a swept wing.

    you again are asserting tht Germans didn't know & never pay heed to planform/speed correlation.
    They intentionally adopted swept wing to suite the speed generated by their jet engine. It doesnt matter it was fast enough what does matter it was relatively the fastest!!

    They didn't know because they didn't have any aircraft capable of flying fast enough for them to notice.

    With much more powerful engines during the development of both the Mig-15 and the Sabre it was found that as both aircraft got close to the speed of sound they started to have aerodynamic problems and a swept wing was a start to solve those problems. In the case of the Mig-15 a manufacturing revolution for them was required because of the finer tolerances in production meaning 5mm deviation in wing thicknesses meant the difference between a smooth flight at high speed or some really exciting manouvers...

    We are talking about a period of aircraft where there were fundamental changes in design where the traditional straight wing prop driven aircraft with a nose mounted engine started to be replaced with jet powered aircraft and the first examples often had the same layout as the previous gen piston engined fighters like the Yak-15 and the Mig-9. Then the engines were moved to the rear and the wings started to get swept. The point is that before the Mig-15 and Sabre the previous aircraft didn't need swept wings to fly well because they couldn't fly fast enough for swept wings to matter.

    you mean politicians or the scientist/engineers??

    I don't like politicians as a general rule, but the point is "Nazi"... anything else is irrelevant. For the same reason I don't like members of the KKK, or any other white supremacist group and I don't make exceptions for engineers or scientists.

    Germany was the first to introduce Autobahns or highways and I don't avoid highways because they were invented by Nazis. I don't however respect the Nazis more for creating something that will get me to home faster. As far as I am concerned if they hadn't done it someone else would have. Their negative impact on the world far outweighed their positive impact.


    Enough said; just over view the bold letters

    You ignored this:

    The Ukrainian peasantry was not specifically or disproportionally targeted by Stalinist dekulakization, which ravaged the Soviet peasantry in general, but the exclusion of political and social groups from the definition forced Ukrainian claimants to construct these historical events in national and ethnic terms.

    In other words this so called famine directed at the Ukraine actually effected all Soviet States and the Ukrainian elements wanting to call it a genocide are being very selective about the facts and terms they are using to make it seem like Stalin targeted them directly.

    The obvious question of course is that if he really did want to wipe out all Ukrainians... and with their post cold war antics I can certainly begin to understand why he might... what stopped him?

    If he really wanted all Ukrainians dead why aren't they?

    The simple facts of the matter is that his reform was targeted at shifting the ownership of the land away from rich land owners and into the control of the state and therefore the peasants that actually worked the land. It is like remodelling the kitchen with a box of matches without ensuring that food could be prepared elsewhere. Very short sighted but hardly an attempt to kill a section of the family. There would be plenty of other more direct ways of doing that if that was the goal.

    Like I said case-balanced; History is written by the Victors...
    {sarcasm}
    But the History we are generally exposed to now is only half the victors story with the Eastern front ignored or recoloured through tinted glasses.

    It was strategic bombing that won WWII quite clearly... the History channel will tell you. Bombing didn't defeat London during the Blitz but clearly the Brits are much tougher than the Germans... obviously... wasn't that shown at Dunkirk?

    The Soviet withdrawl to the gates of Moscow however was a route of course and it was lend lease that started arriving in useful volumes in about 1943 that really won the war.{/sarcasm}


    nightcrawler
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    Re: Hitler & Science

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:33 pm

    It was part of their downfall. They over engineered everything... their Panthers were designed to last 30-40 years when in practise if they had designed them to last 10-15 years they could have made a lot more of them faster.

    If they had kept the Panzer IV in production with the late model gun and produced it in the numbers needed they would have been in a much better position. It was the same with aircraft... producing more FW-190s and keeping the Me-262s as fighters only and concentrating on fighters that could deal with bombers but fly at speeds where they didn't need to worry about enemy fighters would have made a difference.
    Their tanks were unbeatable in the open fields of most Europe; until the same successful tanks meet the forest/snowy landscapes of Eastern Europe then they failed & lighter but relatively underpowered Soviet tanks outperform the mighty Panzers. Because of manpower minority Nazi cannot go for numbers ideology so easily followed by Soviets.
    Accept what?
    It is used to tell what angle you should be facing now and based on a known or estimated flight speed it can be used with a clock for very basic navigation.
    you already accepted!!....see that wasn't that hard to accept the proof available in all the books & internet study
    What I mean is that no aircraft during the WWII period was capable of flying at supersonic speeds so the problems of supersonic speed were unknown at the time.
    you are asserting that Germans were unaware of any correlation b/w speed & planform??


    Swept wings had been proposed as early as 1935 by Adolf Busemann, and Messerschmitt had researched the topic from 1940. In April 1941, he proposed fitting a 35° swept wing (Pfeilflügel II, literally "arrow wing II") to the Me 262,[36] the same wing sweep angle that would later be used on both the American F-86 Sabre and Soviet MiG-15 fighter jets. Though this was not implemented, he continued with the projected HG II and HG III (Hochgeschwindigkeit, "high speed") derivatives in 1944, which were designed with a 35° and 45° wing sweep, respectively.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262
    Now read about the bold scientist he had done quiet research over planforms & increasing speed/range [meant reducing drag] was a clear-cut reason for swept wings
    Obviously a straight wing could be used but it has to be small like on the X-1 and the F-104 and that the best solution to sonic and near sonic flight is a swept wing.
    Since considerable work had already been done on the P.1101 design, the RLM decided to continue reduced funding in order for Messerschmitt to carry out experimental flights testing the swept back wing at anticipated speeds up to Mach 1.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_P.1101

    Their negative impact on the world far outweighed their positive impact.
    All the five fingers [on one hand] ain't equal buddy!! The scientists working under Nazi may have been forced to pursue such a work or else there family be....
    Very short sighted but hardly an attempt to kill a section of the family. There would be plenty of other more direct ways of doing that if that was the goal.
    Got it~~

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