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    Arjun News Thread

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    Werewolf
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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:02 pm

    Arjun is a finished project, finished like failed. Going for rifled guns only decreases firepower and increases costs for absolutley nothing worth. Already smoothbore fired rounds are barely to not possible to penetrate enemy MBT's at first and effective engagement ranges, a rifled gun will only worsen this and APFSDS,HEAT and GLATGM's will decrease its penetration power significantly at the same time wear down gun barrel.


    Mindstorm
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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:58 pm


    aksha wrote:give me at least one instance and i will beleive the CAG lied

    Why on earth someone here should insinuate that CAG lied ? Razz ........How if what CAG revealed, even if in some way and rightly "defensive" of the made-in-India technological efforts, don't would had involuntarily collapsed to theirs inner foundations the ridiculous mountain of pathetic LIES that some mercenary indian media operator, selling himself to forign interests misrepresenting facts and events to influenciate Indian public opinion, had uttered in the representation of the comparative trials; lies that still today some people is still incapable to abandon after having repeated them for years Laughing


    When a particular indian media operator .....with definitely too much western "friends" and love for the collection of foreign money samples, for so say Laughing .........had sustained, with the usual reference to the by now mythical "unnamed indian offiicials" present at the event Rolling Eyes that :



    "India’s home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90."

    and

    "....from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter."


    several people in the knowing here and elsewhere questioned strongly this ,at best ,phantasious representation of the event in question , do you know the sort of things that happen when the data ,coming from the same trials, at the maker of one of the MBT involved paint a situation at the exact opposite.

    Those are just some of mine past interventions on the subject :



    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2333p255-t-90-mbt-news

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2333p555-t-90-mbt-news

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2333p570-t-90-mbt-news


    What should surprise indian military enthusiasts is that Arjun MKI managed to lose ....i repeat LOSE....the comparative trials, in practically ALL the area taken into examination (even the Fire Power one !!) in spite its vectronic suit,and partially mechanical one, enjoyed more than 14 years development advantage, that its mass was maintained as low as possible (with the MKII it is now at over 67 tons with the same propulsion engine, transmissions and track wideness Rolling Eyes ) and in spite the requirements of those trials was conceived, through a playing field horribly twisted at Arjun favour and not the opposite , to not highlight the horrendous efficiency disbalance between the two MBTs at Arjun disfavour how i have clearly pointed out; disbalance that Arjun could never compensate in any way cause its unlucky western design philopsophy genetic heritage.

    I seriously doubt that Arjun MKII could come at tank biathlon 2016 and even get a chance to play in the same league with a modernized T-72B3 (leaving out T-90MS/AM) in spite costing several times more ; anyone can upgrade without any problem the vectronic suit and some mechanical and armor elements to today performances but none can do the same with am outweighted ,badly designed and conceived inherent structure.






    aksha
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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  aksha on Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:35 am

    as an indian i will beleive WHAT THE CAG SAYS

    favouratism to indegenous products did not stop the same CAG from strongly criticizing the LCA

    you can beleive as you want


    i will still take the arjun mk2 .

    india cannot fight on foreign muscle forever.




    Werewolf
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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:02 pm

    aksha wrote:as an indian i will beleive WHAT THE CAG SAYS

    favouratism to indegenous products did not stop the same CAG from strongly criticizing the LCA

    you can beleive as you want


    i will still take the arjun mk2 .

    india cannot fight on foreign muscle forever.




    Carrying a dead pet around and pretending it is alive will not help the defense of your country either. Arjun is a dead project even Indian authorities know that. FMBT programm is hard indication after 30 years of failure of Arjun with a design philosophy that can only be marked as a failed tank design. attempted a Leopard 2 with almost all open front of weak points, trying to safe it by using a small volumetric armor arrangement around the already weakpoints similiar to russian design but the entire tank is a failure in design, no changes in design can be made at this point.

    Mindstorm
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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:03 am

    aksha wrote:as an indian i will beleive WHAT THE CAG SAYS



    Yes, then you believe that Arjun MKI have LOST the comparative trials : 75.01 for T-90S against 72.46 for Arjun MKI , to the exact contrary of what sustained for years by mercenary indian media operators.



    Even in the area (fire power) where its much more up-to-date vectronic suit should have given to it a wide advantage over its opponent, even discounting the advantage of T-90S in missile firing capability (that is already operational since day one, tested and included in its cost.....a very low cost), the difference would have amounted instead to a bit more than a single point , 25.77 to 24.50, in Arjun favour , if you put the exact same tank crew, before, in a T-90S and ,after, in a modernized one, T-90MS with "Kalina" (...... for not name something much, much more advanced in work for new unified heavy brigade family  Very Happy ), in the same trials the final results would have been crushingly lopsided in T-90MS favour .


    What Indian tax-payers should ask to CAG is to publish the results (that someone know....  Very Happy ) in the other area of the trial ,so that public opinion could become aware if in those comparative trials Arjun would have gained the upper hand even in only ONE of them  Rolling Eyes


    Even more Indian taxpayers should pretend from CAG to point out why Indian MoD do not order a SERIOUS comparative trials, taking into account all truly cardinal characteristics of the two weapon platforms in a possible large scale war scenario ,instead of one like that in 2010 clearly conceived to allow the Arjun, and its enormous baggage of inherent western design-related disadvantages, to lose of only few points.

    This is what is call an even playing field :


    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2333p570-t-90-mbt-news


    1) Force the platoon of Arjun to come to the testing range using the same, identical  number (and occupy the same, identical space aboard) of Indian strategic mobilization assets - aircraft, train, ship, tractor trailers etc… -required to the 14 T-90S , so to render evident the simply crushing strategic mobilization speed overmatch and the crucial sector force density in the event of a war, between T-90S and Arjun.

    2) Provide the 14 Arjun’s platoon with the same ,identical Indian Army human resources  -42 tankers and not 33% more as required by the Arjun ,cause its  western genetic pool heritage-  required to the T-90S platoon , with also the same identical furniture for them (food, coverage, energy generators, clothes etc….) and with the related carrying vehicles. The results will be very interesting……

    3) Measure the exact distance covered by the 14 Arjun platoon with the same identical amount of fuel provided to the T-90S, at the same conditions.  Moreover Indian Army should also provide the two groups with the same ,identical number of fuel resupply  vehicles for the entire duration of the trials so to simulate repeated fuel resupply in time of war and measure the total distance covered by the two groups. I manage already now to figure the faces….


    4) Provide the two groups with equal number of repair vehicles with fixed number ,volume and weight of spare parts (at example replacement for damaged armor blocks , ERA tiles, transmission, engines, axis, tracks ,rollers, tires etc… within a prefixed volume and weight limit) so to simulate logistical needs in response to battle and environmental damages  for conflicts of different duration. The result would be very, very interesting.

    5) Measure the weight , fuel/oil requirement and strategic lift requirements for all the auxiliary engineering vehicles  ( recovering vehicles, bridging vehicles, amphibious fording etc) supporting the operation of the two MBT’s groups of different weight .  

    6) Let both group to transverse different roads , canals bridges ,and enemy over-ditch passages  representative of both national and potential enemy ones and take account of how many of them sustain their weight ( with good peace of the comically abused nominal ground pressure argument).

    7) Last  but not least : produce three-dimensional targets with the exact 3D size of the two tanks and conduct the fire at the shooting range allowing those targets to move ,exactly as in the reality, changing continuously and in a totally arbitrary way their speed and direction long different land morphology . That would allow also to simulate the different  capability to change more and more faster those variables by part of the two tanks in reason of the different torque potential available ,the different inertial mass and the maximum solicitation limit for the suspensions) and video-record the entire fire session. At the end of it measure with precision the number and placement of any hit and, from the video recording, the distance and direction of any miss. The cold results of a similar realistic test would cause majority of easily gullible “tin-can yelling” zombies  to fall in complete depression, even more because would become immediately evident  the dramatic effects that similar huge difference in target area would have in the exchange ratio between peer opponent employing MBT constructed around the two different philosophy.



    Try to read post 268

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2333p255-t-90-mbt-news



    Arjun is an important project for India, not for its inherent military value, but for the technological experience in developing a domestic MBT; under this point of view the selection of a western-like design, obviously much less efficient, but much more simple and less problematic ,having less volumetric constrictions , was a good choice.


    That, of course, do not cancel the hard reality that any serious general or military scientist know......is sufficient to see the technical requirement and limits that Indian MoD has put for the FMBT  Wink


    Last edited by Mindstorm on Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Pinto
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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  Pinto on Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:27 pm

    In short time India will order more modified T 90 and in future armata, my take Smile

    max steel
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    Re: Arjun News Thread

    Post  max steel on Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:25 pm

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