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    Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is so confusing... they have been talking about upgrades and new builds for over a decade... more of the former before that... yet the cockpit in the video of the aircraft that visited Venezuela was conventional dials and not at all what I would expect for an upgraded new Tu-160M2...

    Dials are more resistant to EMP caused by nuke blast than fancy stuff

    They use them for a reason, this is still nuclear bomber



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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:16 pm

    This was a Tu-160M (or M1), not a Tu-160M2 = an old plane, not a new build one.

    According to Butowski the mid-life conversion is called Tu-160M1, it includes new autopilot, new communication and navigation equipment, some old stuff is removed.

    The definite modernisation (Tu-160M) will receive new radar and glass cockpit. And the new version of the NK-32 engine.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:08 am

    White Swans settling in the USA backyard
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2541809.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:06 am

    Who cares about cockpits. Those things only need to be able to launch cruise missiles from 2000km away. They proved to be able to go at the other side of the earth without any modernization.

    They will never be used as conventional bombers anyway in a real war or when tensions are high but rather kept in middle of russia waiting with their kh-101.

    I want to see what the modernised models cockpits look like... is that OK with you?

    Dials are more resistant to EMP caused by nuke blast than fancy stuff

    They use them for a reason, this is still nuclear bomber

    Actually the dials just display information... it is the sensors that detect the information displayed on the dials that need protection from EMP, but these aircraft are no longer bombers AFAIK... they are now purely cruise missile carriers, so any nuclear blast is likely to occur thousands of kms away, and indeed most will occur well inside the atmosphere so the EMP effect will be rather minimal anyway.

    This was a Tu-160M (or M1), not a Tu-160M2 = an old plane, not a new build one.

    Yes, I know... what I am saying is that over the years there has been repeated talk about aircraft upgrades for all the Tupolevs that talked about unification of engines (where practical.... ie backfire and blackjack are the same but not the bear), radar, sensors, presumably cockpits, and weapons.

    They often have reports about this or that upgrade but it is never confirmed and this video footage seems to show no much has changed since the first production Blackjacks in terms of cockpit instrumentation.

    Now they did send two Blackjacks... perhaps they sent an old model and an upgraded model to test the performance of each, and to allow cockpit video of the old model for release to the public.... or maybe they were both old models... or maybe both are upgraded and the upgrade does not include cockpit modernisation.

    White Swans settling in the USA backyard

    Another parameter they do not explore is that with the end of the INF treaty, then Russia will be free to return to develop nuclear missiles with ranges of between 500km and 5,000km... so basing some IRBMs in Venezuela... just looking at a map, a 5,000km range missile could reach Arizona/Wyoming/south dakota and pretty much any US state to the east of those states from a quite central launch position in Venezuela...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:22 am

    ..Russia will be free to return to develop nuclear missiles with ranges of between 500km and 5,000km... so basing some IRBMs in Venezuela...
    Nicaragua is even better situated, but it will involve deploying too many troops there as well to guard service & maintain them, & supplying them will be a lot harder than those in Syria. Easier to send a few SSN/GNs off the coasts with LACMs.
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    Post  dino00 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:10 pm

    The Defense Ministry proved the superiority of the Russian Tu-160 over the American B-1B

    The Russian military department compared the Russian “White Swan” with the American B-1B strategic bomber in a number of technical indicators and combat capabilities.

    The Russian Defense Ministry recalled that since its inception, the Tu-160 still surpasses its Western counterparts in many ways. This is evidenced by the infographics published by the military.

    Combat vehicles in the presented infographics are compared by a number of technical indicators and combat capabilities.

    As a result, the Russian aircraft surpassed its American counterpart in a number of indicators: maximum combat load, range, maximum flight speed, and others.

    Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears ) - Page 32 89f38810

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201812230915-c3h3.htm

    45t payload.
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    Post  Arrow on Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:39 pm

    But the US has a much better B-2 and in the future B-21.
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:05 pm

    Arrow wrote:But the US has a much better B-2 and in the future B-21.

    lol1 lol1

    Try to put the B-2 data in this infographic too.
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    Post  Arrow on Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:08 pm

    B-2 it is very stealth. Tu-160 is an easy target. It can only be used as an ALCM platform.
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    Post  dino00 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:21 pm

    Arrow wrote:B-2 it is very stealth. Tu-160 is an easy target. It can only be used as an ALCM platform.

    That is the reason they built them.
    B-2 is for what exactly? I am not talking about stadiums fly overs.
    B-21 its not a thing yet, maybe a day Will be a bomber...if the US has the financial resources...
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:28 pm

    Arrow wrote:B-2 it is very stealth. Tu-160 is an easy target. It can only be used as an ALCM platform.
    Yes, B-2 could flatten the Kremlin any time with gravity bombs, due to its extreme stealth it could drop them right on top of Putin's head without being noticed... that is why they spent billions in changing its design from high-level to low-level penetration. Tu-160 at 2M is an easy target but the subsonic and low manoeuvrable B-2 is not. Keep on amusing us please lol1 lol1
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:31 pm

    The Russian PVO can detect stealth aircraft.
    One unusual feature of the P-18 is its counter-stealth capability. Since the radar uses metre-length wave VHF, the shaping features and radar absorbent materials used on stealth aircraft are less efficient, allowing VHF based radars to detect targets at a greater range than centimeter or millimeter wave radar which stealth aircraft are optimized against. The presence of a P-18 radar in Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War is believed to have contributed to the loss of a US F-117 Nighthawk during the conflict.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-18_radar#Combat_History
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html

    Their new UAVs will also detect them:
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-china-russia-plan-crush-americas-stealth-aircraft-13708

    The shorter range B-1Bs & B-2s can be refueled & have more foreign airfields to use than the Tu-160s. OTH, Tu-160s can use their speed & EW suits to evade fighters, suppress the enemy IADs & penetrate its denied areas.
    Ironically, the US made Venezuelan F-16s escorted them! At least they r not grounded for lack of support/parts as some would have us believe.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:05 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Russian PVO can detect stealth aircraft.
    One unusual feature of the P-18 is its counter-stealth capability. Since the radar uses metre-length wave VHF, the shaping features and radar absorbent materials used on stealth aircraft are less efficient, allowing VHF based radars to detect targets at a greater range than centimeter or millimeter wave radar which stealth aircraft are optimized against. The presence of a P-18 radar in Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War is believed to have contributed to the loss of a US F-117 Nighthawk during the conflict.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-18_radar#Combat_History
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html

    Their new UAVs will also detect them:
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-china-russia-plan-crush-americas-stealth-aircraft-13708

    The shorter range B-1Bs & B-2s can be refueled & have more foreign airfields to use than the Tu-160s. OTH, Tu-160s can use their speed & EW suits to evade fighters, suppress the enemy IADs & penetrate its denied areas.
    Ironically, the US made Venezuelan F-16s escorted them! At least they r not grounded for lack of support/parts as some would have us believe.

    It is possible to detect the B-2/21 and so on, but it won't give weapon quality tracking.

    The shaping is interesting at 200km , the missiles are usable from that range.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:44 pm


    It is possible to detect the B-2/21 and so on, but it won't give weapon quality tracking.

    But it will be allow to send sukhois armed with IR and canons on them. Then they are dead.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:50 pm

    Newer radar like Nebo M can detect stealth from very far away with very high resolution. P-18 is just old and been replaced/updated with something much newer.

    So yeah, they tracked stealth long ago. It's different story now where even US is looking at speed, not stealth, as the future.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:19 pm

    Tu-160 can also be refueled in the air.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:51 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Newer radar like Nebo M can detect stealth from very far away with very high resolution. P-18 is just old and been replaced/updated with something much newer.

    So yeah, they tracked stealth long ago. It's different story now where even US is looking at speed, not stealth, as the future.

    They have huge stock of p-18/19 and other soviet radars easily upgradable for a fraction of the Nabo price.

    They only need two or three operators so you can deploy many of them probably 3 or 4 per each s-300/400 regiments.

    The big advantage of these systems is that they are very hard to detect. Even with their huge antenna they have low precision which means a smaller antenna in ARM can't target them and fighters EW can't find them precisly. Only know direction and power but no range indication.

    And last VHF radars have resolution of 100-200m in range so they can guide active raar SAM like future s-350's missiles on targets which will activate their raar from 20km and found their targets by their own for final strike.
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    Post  Azi on Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:23 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Russian PVO can detect stealth aircraft.
    One unusual feature of the P-18 is its counter-stealth capability. Since the radar uses metre-length wave VHF, the shaping features and radar absorbent materials used on stealth aircraft are less efficient, allowing VHF based radars to detect targets at a greater range than centimeter or millimeter wave radar which stealth aircraft are optimized against. The presence of a P-18 radar in Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War is believed to have contributed to the loss of a US F-117 Nighthawk during the conflict.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-18_radar#Combat_History
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html

    Their new UAVs will also detect them:
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-china-russia-plan-crush-americas-stealth-aircraft-13708

    The shorter range B-1Bs & B-2s can be refueled & have more foreign airfields to use than the Tu-160s. OTH, Tu-160s can use their speed & EW suits to evade fighters, suppress the enemy IADs & penetrate its denied areas.
    Ironically, the US made Venezuelan F-16s escorted them! At least they r not grounded for lack of support/parts as some would have us believe.

    It is possible to detect the B-2/21 and so on, but it won't give weapon quality tracking.

    The shaping is interesting at 200km , the missiles are usable from that range.
    The intention of stealth is to attack unseen, to have the advantage of a surprise. If you can see the B2, B21, F-35 or F-22 in the VHF band there is no surpise anymore!!!

    It's true that VHF band limits the accuracy to a few hundreds of meters, but there are solutions for this! The VHF radar see at a long distance something is there and that's the opportunity to focus a sharp radar beam in shorter wavelength exactly in this direction. Normally a radar cone lose energy fast with distance, if the angles are too wide, to retain the energy the cone must be focused more to a beam (for x-band radar). You can do this easy in a integrated air defense network. Of course both systems not connected are helpless, the VHF will receive no weapon track and the x band radar will see the stealth plane too late But Russia has a integrated air defense network. It's by the way possible to raise the sensitivity of x-band detector, that it can detect the small amount of reflection from stealth planes, makes sense in the integrated air defense network, there you can focus on a small part and ignore the rest of background noise. Another point is for big bombers to sneak silent behind enemy lines and that's not possible in Russia, because the big OTH radar see the B-2 from long distance and the B-2 (B-21) has no fighter support, is helpless even against a Mig-21.

    By the way the 92N2 radar produce a very focused radar beam! The 91N6E has a engagement range against stealth targets of 150 km, detection range is more.

    It's true...stealth planes can come a little closer to air defense lines, but not close enough! Russia 2018 is not Iraq 2003, but Muricans think it is and their technology is soo extreme superior.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:47 am

    Arrow wrote:B-2 it is very stealth. Tu-160 is an easy target. It can only be used as an ALCM platform.

    very stealth is true!  but very stealth ,ust be defined to what bandwith? and optical systems also dont see it? no 1000+ Celsius  exhaust can be traced by IR detectors? wow




    Krasna Zvezda interview with the Commander of the long-range aviation, Lieutenant-General Sergei KOBYLASH,

    http://redstar.ru/rabotali-na-polnyj-radius/

    For the first time this academic year, we carried out practical launches of new aircraft guided missiles by combatant crews at the sea range, at the sea target. Not without pride, I will emphasize: The launches were made regularly, all the missiles hit the target, which proves the high efficiency of the new aviation weapons and their skillful use

    sea tragets? Zircons?


    In the near future, long-range aircraft will receive upgraded Tu-160M2 aircraft with improved performance.

    +++
    Please, a little more in detail about the course of modernization of the long-range aircraft fleet.

    - The ongoing modernization will extend the life of these aircraft to 45-50 years. They will be installed fundamentally new avionics cockpit. On-board radio-electronic systems will be replaced by an on-board radio-electronic complex with an integrated information and control environment. The complex will include new promising systems: inertial, astroinertial, satellite navigation, radio near navigation, air signals, as well as an onboard defense complex, electronic warfare complex.
    This will allow the aircraft to use both existing means of destruction and promising increased range.
    The industry conducts all works in accordance with the agreed schedule and with high quality.


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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:55 am

    Azi wrote:

    The shaping is interesting at 200km , the missiles are usable from that range.
    The intention of stealth is to attack unseen, to have the advantage of a surprise. If you can see the B2, B21, F-35 or F-22 in the VHF band there is no surpise anymore!!!

    It's true that VHF band limits the accuracy to a few hundreds of meters, but there are solutions for this! The VHF radar see at a long distance something is there and that's the opportunity to focus a sharp radar beam in shorter wavelength exactly in this direction. Normally a radar cone lose energy fast with distance, if the angles are too wide, to retain the energy the cone must be focused more to a beam (for x-band radar). You can do this easy in a integrated air defense network.
    +++
    It's true...stealth planes can come a little closer to air defense lines, but not close enough! Russia 2018 is not Iraq 2003, but Muricans think it is and their technology is soo extreme superior.[/quote]

    True what you are saying but although stealth is no silver bullet it is also not useless. Otherwise Russians would work on VLO technologies. VLO is not only shape and cover but also em spectrum "camouflage" to have smallest possible footprint across all spectrum. In order to come as close as possible with standoff weapons. Either very fast ot]r very low observable.

    BTW is stealth is so safe then USAF wont be requiring B-21 to be only "optionally manned". So in most important missions are to be one-way only.




    What I am curious about is whether Tu-160M2/ Tu-22M3M (or as I've heard Tu-22M7) receive also active defenses i.e. direct energy weapons. Lasers or EM guns. Then we are back to the future: like self defense gun turrets on bombers ;-)



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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:58 am

    The fact is that the majority of US strategic bombers are B-52s and B-1Bs... they have less than 20 B-2s and are not making any more.

    Their confidence in stealth is clear as their new bomber design is expected to be fast rather than stealthy.

    The Russians have a lot of Bears, which are no worse than B-52s while being much much younger airframes, while the 14-15 Blackjacks would be totally inadequate on their own they are going to build a lot more, and with the new upgrade of the Tu-22M3M with inflight refuelling the Backfire actually starts to become a very close equivalent of the B-1B is several aspects...

    And of course the PAK DA is in the process of development too, but even it will not be a traditional strategic bomber... more a theatre bomber and missile carrier and strategic cruise missile carrier... and perhaps even an MPA... and depending on the new fixed radar antenna arrays it could easily become a flying wing with embedded 360 degree radar for the AWACS role too.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:01 am

    GarryB wrote:The fact is that the majority of US strategic bombers are B-52s and B-1Bs... they have less than 20 B-2s and are not making any more.

    Their confidence in stealth is clear as their new bomber design is expected to be fast rather than stealthy.

    you mean B-21? is stealth but much cheaper than 2$bln a piece B-2. Fast bomber can be of course considered X-37 or is similar vehicles but this i orbital category to me



    GB wrote:The Russians have a lot of Bears, which are no worse than B-52s while being much much younger airframes, while the 14-15 Blackjacks would be totally inadequate on their own they are going to build a lot more, and with the new upgrade of the Tu-22M3M with inflight refuelling the Backfire actually starts to become a very close equivalent of the B-1B is several aspects...

    And of course the PAK DA is in the process of development too, but even it will not be a traditional strategic bomber... more a theatre bomber and missile carrier and strategic cruise missile carrier... and perhaps even an MPA... and depending on the new fixed radar antenna arrays it could easily become a flying wing with embedded 360 degree radar for the AWACS role too.

    not sure what is the difference between "missile carrier" and strategic bomber? In Russian Tu-160/22/95 are called "Raketonoscy" i.e. missile carriers.

    AWACS on PAK DA? technically possible but if you use tens of kW radiation power why would you need stealth platform?! scratch scratch scratch
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:41 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The Russians have a lot of Bears, which are no worse than B-52s while being much much younger airframes, while the 14-15 Blackjacks would be totally inadequate on their own they are going to build a lot more, and with the new upgrade of the Tu-22M3M with inflight refuelling the Backfire actually starts to become a very close equivalent of the B-1B is several aspects...

    With Kh-47M2s, 3M22 Zircons, Kh-32s you could say the Blackjacks have the decisive advantage in firepower. Even with conventional warheads, 4 daggers on its pylons, and 6 Zircons/Kh-32s internally effectively makes them nigh-wunderwaffes.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:37 am

    Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears ) - Page 32 000513

    No Kh-32 internally. To big. But six new Kh-50 cruise missiles would also be great.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:39 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:2s you could say the Blackjacks have the decisive advantage in firepower. Even with conventional warheads, 4 daggers on its pylons, and 6 Zircons/Kh-32s internally effectively makes them nigh-wunderwaffes.


    As Hole mentioned Kh-32 is way too big, I've never heard about air launched Zircon too. Unless this is called GZUR. kh-50 and GUZUR were to fit into internal revolver launcher. Kh-50 also 2 under wing pylons. I presume GZUR can be also mounted that way.


    In short 8 supersonic missiles with 1,500km range means half a sauadron a squadron such bombers being able to deliver 48 hypersonic missiles. I donth think any CSG can survive that.

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