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    Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

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    mnztr

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  mnztr on Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:33 pm

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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:44 am

    perhaps at the very high speeds TU-95 reaches vs other prop planes the requirements are different

    That is a good point... perhaps these new efficient blades are not better in some areas like takeoff or high speed medium altitude, or medium altitude cruise speeds...

    If the new blades improve performance in areas that don't suit tactics with the Bear then it hardly makes sense to use them...

    I am sure they know what they are doing...

    Sadly looking cool doesn't come into it... otherwise they would have black and white spirals on the blades so if you are looking from the front it would hypnotise you... Smile
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    Hole

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Hole on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:09 am

    That would be russian aggression on a new level. lol1 lol1

    hoom

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:17 pm

    *Breaking news, Russian 'Bear' Downs NATO Planes*
    dit dit dit da da da dit dit dit
    In breaking news this hour several innocent democratic fuzzy & cute fighter jets from multiple NATO countries have disappeared off radar after being sent to intercept an aggressively Russian 'Bear' bomber sent by Putin to aggressively Russianly approach NATO borders & possibly interfere in elections along the West coast from Norway to Spain.

    Military sources have been unable to determine exactly what method the Bear used to down the planes but can confirm that the aircraft disappeared from radar screens shortly after the fighters made visual contact with the Putin bomber, some form of hacking is suspected but UK Intelligence sources who cannot be identified for security reasons are unable to rule out the possibility ultra-deadly Novichok chemical warfare agent was smeared on the control sticks of the fighters before they took off 'we have no evidence whatsoever but we're quite sure that Putin ordered the GRU to do it' they advise.

    While the evil communist bombers have only just started their return leg the independent definitely not a UK state sponsored info-war campaign researcher Bellingcat has released its 3rd expose on the incident with shocking proof that Putin Done It! in the form of a photo showing Skripal Novichok poisoner Russian Colonel Anatoly Chepiga at the controls of the Russian Aggressor  holding what appears to be a perfume bottle and with a Russian Built BUK missile launcher in the co-pilot seat next to him.

    Coming up after the break our panel of independent ex CIA directors will rationally discuss how Putin just started WWIII, is exclusively to blame & definitely nothing to do with the weird spiral patterns on the props in the Bellingcat image which look suspiciously like '60s movie hypnotising machines...
    da da da dit dit dit da da da
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:52 am

    News just in... officials at Porton Down have confirmed that the substance used was Novachok and that Vladimir Putin administered it personally to each of the brave heroic western pilots before they took to the air to defend NATO airspace (which of course is all airspace).

    Correction from previous report... the pilots were not just cute and fuzzy, they were also non gender specific... and not mentioning this fact has hurt their feelings...
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:10 am

    C'mon this dead can should return in next month. The cat will give BBC ( or big white c) an extensive interview with final proof the it was Putin himself. Red handed as every Russian is red of course.

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    George1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:03 pm

    Defenсe Ministry to receive more than 20 engines for upgraded Tu-160

    Twenty-two NK-32 engines of the second series are scheduled for equipping updated Tu-160 bombers according to the contract with PJSC Kuznetsov (Samara).

    The Russian Defence Ministry will receive a preproduction batch of NK-32 engines to be manufactured at the enterprise by late 2018.

    Currently, under the control of the military representative office, the preproduction series engines are undergoing bench tests to determine the enterprise’s readiness of for series line production. A part of the products will be ready for delivery to the customer after the tests are completed.

    The resumption of the NK-32 production opens up broad prospects for maintaining the fleet of Tu-160 combatant aircraft at a high level of serviceability. The engine life is estimated at dozens of years.

    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12201845@egNews
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:42 pm

    George1 wrote:The resumption of the NK-32 production opens up broad prospects for maintaining the fleet of Tu-160 combatant aircraft at a high level of serviceability. The engine life is estimated at dozens of years.

    I wonder if any of those go for Tu-22M3M
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:30 am

    Hopefully they do eventually... but then 22 new engines is enough for 5 Blackjacks, plus two spare... which might suggest there are 22 new engines for 5 Blackjacks and one Backfire which is being upgraded to Tu22M3M level...

    Of course the latters first flight has been delayed... When they reveal it they might mention whether it has NK-25 or new NK-32 engines...

    They have said its first flight has been delayed but no mention of how long the delay will be...
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:30 am

    GarryB wrote: They have said its first flight has been delayed but no mention of how long the delay will be...

    they did, by end of October lol1 lol1 lol1
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    archangelski

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    The Tu-160 is an evolution of Myasischev's M-18 project of the sixties.

    Post  archangelski on Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:59 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Well you claim the Tu-22 and Tu-22M are the same because they both have wings and a single vertical fin and two engines and crew in the front...
    I never did, only that the 1st influenced the 2nd & it was derived (evolved) from the 1st. They learned from their mistakes to design & produce it.
    Later, 12 years after the B-1 appeared in the USA, they produced the TU-160. I have no doubt that they borrowed many ideas from it:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_B-1_Lancer

    The Tu-160 is an evolution of Myasischev's M-18 project of the sixties.

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    Isos

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Isos on Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:10 pm

    archangelski wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Well you claim the Tu-22 and Tu-22M are the same because they both have wings and a single vertical fin and two engines and crew in the front...
    I never did, only that the 1st influenced the 2nd & it was derived (evolved) from the 1st. They learned from their mistakes to design & produce it.
    Later, 12 years after the B-1 appeared in the USA, they produced the TU-160. I have no doubt that they borrowed many ideas from it:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_B-1_Lancer

    The Tu-160 is an evolution of Myasischev's M-18 project of the sixties.


    During cold war US and USSR tested hundreds of design for all type of aircraft. They came to same conclusions for lot of details that's why some are very similar like tu-160 and B-1 and sometime they came to different conclusions for exemple su-27 and f-15.

    Soviet/Russian always work on their hardware to be well suited for their doctrines/environment. They can't really copy anything from the west as every equipment US has would not fit in russian military. Su-57 for exemple could have been much more stealthy than f-22 but that's not their goal.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:03 am

    Indeed:
    The results of the design work on the supersonic multimode M-18 aircraft with a variable sweep wing, performed on a competitive basis according to the requirements of the Air Force for a heavy strategic bomber, were recognized as the best among similar works of the Kulon design bureau of the general designer P.O. Sukhoi in 1972 ( T-4MS ) [https://testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/t/4/ms/]
    ..However, the MAP management takes a different solution: to further work on a supersonic bomber Submitting Project M-18 OKB MMZ "Experience" General Designer AN Tupolev. This decision was influenced by such factors as the small size of the OKB VM Myasishchev recreated in the second half of the 1960s and the lack of the necessary scientific, technical and production base ...
    https://testpilot.ru/russia/myasishchev/m/18/
    But they also studied the B-1 project for comparison.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:28 pm

    I never did, only that the 1st influenced the 2nd & it was derived (evolved) from the 1st. They learned from their mistakes to design & produce it.
    Later, 12 years after the B-1 appeared in the USA, they produced the TU-160. I have no doubt that they borrowed many ideas from it:

    You admit to not being an expert and then you make some claims about something.

    You have no doubt they borrowed some ideas... really?

    And what sort of research have you done on the subject... perhaps if you actually took the time to look at the designs Tupolev and even Sukhoi came up with during the development period of the Tu-160 you would perhaps be in a better position to decide who judged whom.

    But they also studied the B-1 project for comparison.

    Of course based on your logic then we can state categorically that the F-15 and the F-18 are based on the design of the MiG-25 in the sense that they are twin engined fighters with two vertical tails and two side by side jet engines with conventional wings and tail surfaces... would that be right?

    The B-1B is a bomber... and without inflight refuelling it is a theatre bomber comparable to the Tu-22M3M.

    The Tu-160 is a strategic cruise missile carrier.

    There are very clear copies made by the Soviet Union and they make no bones about it when it happens... the AA-2 AAM, the Tu-4 bomber, the shape of the Space Shuttle was also copied.

    Of course if you listen to "experts" in the west they copied everything, which is juvenile and simply wrong.

    If you want us to accept that Tupolev studied the B-1 programme then you have to admit that the makers of the B-1B also studied the Soviet bomber development programmes and copied parts of them too.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:22 pm

    ..the F-15 and the F-18 are based on the design of the MiG-25 in the sense that they are twin engined fighters with two vertical tails and two side by side jet engines with conventional wings and tail surfaces... would that be right?
    Yes, the F-15 was developed as a response to the MiG-25 which was thought to be a dog fighter, not interceptor, before the 1975 Belenko defection. The F-18 is based on the F-16; its twin tails r for better stability during carrier ops.
    The B-1B is a bomber... and without inflight refuelling it is a theatre bomber comparable to the Tu-22M3M. ..
    If you want us to accept that Tupolev studied the B-1 programme then you have to admit that the makers of the B-1B also studied the Soviet bomber development programmes and copied parts of them too.
    The B-1 trials started 12 years before the TU-160 as a strategic bomber before becoming the B-1B theater bomber & it can carry more ordinance than even the B-52.
    I have no doubt the US intell knew of & provided the M-18 & other projects data to US designers. A case in point: the TU-126 AWACS appeared 10 years before the US had its counterpart, which was based on the idea of having rotating radome on top of the fuselage:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-126
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-3_Sentry

    The USAF has Foreign Technology Division within the National Air and Space Intelligence Center to monitor & evaluate what others r doing:
    https://archive.org/stream/CIADocuments/CIA-329_djvu.txt
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Air_and_Space_Intelligence_Center  
    https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/some-most-secretive-work-will-done-new-nasic-building/yac4b7k9LwWywMFf8IiQZP/

    So, it's 2 way street!
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:53 am

    Unusual view


    hoom

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  hoom on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:33 am

    It is a great angle but sadly thats a render/CGI.
    Would love to see an actual photo of that angle.

    Edit:
    The F-18 is based on the F-16
    Nope, YF-17 was the direct competitor to YF-16 which won, YF-17 later developed into F-18.

    mnztr

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  mnztr on Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:01 pm

    you can really see how the TU-95 evolved from the TU-4 /b-29 though. The TU-95 is the ultimate Steampunk bomber design, it looks timeless and awesome!!!
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:30 am

    mnztr wrote:you can really see how the TU-95 evolved from the TU-4 /b-29 though. The TU-95 is the ultimate Steampunk bomber design, it looks timeless and awesome!!!

    wut? Is this a joke?  Suspect  The Tu-95 is a swept wing aircraft that weighs nearly 3x the B-29 and over 50% faster....  how dafuq could the Tu-95 be an evolutionary development of the B-29 clone?  Maybe because it has two wings, 4 engines and the pilots sit at the front?....
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    Hole

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:43 am

    The Tu-4 was developed first into the Tu-80 and than the Tu-85. The Tu-85 comes close to the Tu-95. So he is right that there is a line.



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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:30 pm

    Yes, the F-15 was developed as a response to the MiG-25 which was thought to be a dog fighter, not interceptor, before the 1975 Belenko defection. The F-18 is based on the F-16; its twin tails r for better stability during carrier ops.

    But your logic is that because the Tu-160 looks like the B-1B then the former must be a copy of the latter... both the F-18 have the same layout in terms of wings and engines and tail surfaces both vertical and horizontal as the MiG-25 yet there is NEVER any suggestion in the west that either of these aircraft are copies... in fact it is claimed the Su-27 is a copy of the F-15 and the MiG-29 is somehow a copy of both the F-16 and F-18...

    The twin tails of the F-18 are to move them into the vortexes coming off the leading edge root extensions (LERX) to improve stability... something the F-16 lacks despite also have LERXes as well.


    So, it's 2 way street!

    Of course it is, but only the Soviets get accused of it regularly by the west because they are too dumb to come up with anything that might be good, so anything good must therefore be a copy of a western thing... this was largely helped by ignorance in the west that often did not see soviet weapons until long after they were deployed... by which time a US equivalent often had appeared so it is assumed the western equivalent was created first...

    Unusual view

    Nice, but not real because the real Blackjack has white engine AB flames, not blue like the Backfire.

    you can really see how the TU-95 evolved from the TU-4 /b-29 though.

    Not really, and even then the Tu-4 was superior to the B-29... it had more powerful engines that were not prone to burst into flames like the US model and the gun positions had decent 20mm cannon instead of HMGs.

    The Tu-95 was not related to the B-29 or Tu-4... in fact after being made to copy the B-29 (Stalin had decided there was not enough time to develop a new aircraft) Tupolev vowed never to copy another aircraft design...

    The soviets certainly copied a few western designs... usually for very good reasons... and they never denied that they copied when they did.

    Of course a lot of the time it was not copying but licence production like the Maxim MG, or the C-47/DC-3 (Li-2) transport aircraft.

    The Tu-4 was developed first into the Tu-80 and than the Tu-85. The Tu-85 comes close to the Tu-95. So he is right that there is a line.

    Well how about this... when the single engined ANT-25 long range Tupolev landed unexpectedly in the US after a 11,500km flight the US decided not to cancel work on what became the B-17... so in actual fact if there was no ANT-25 there would have been no B-17 or B-29.... Razz
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:33 am

    But your logic is that because the Tu-160 looks like the B-1B then the former must be a copy of the latter...
    I never implied that, only that they compared it with their design & borrowed some ideas.
    ..the Tu-4 was superior to the B-29... it had more powerful engines that were not prone to burst into flames like the US model..
    Yes, their engines were also often catching fire.
    The Tu-4 is at 13:00 & the Tu-95 is at 35:15- direct descendant of the Tu-4 & is closely related to the B-29:
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:33 am

    Hole wrote:The Tu-4 was developed first into the Tu-80 and than the Tu-85. The Tu-85 comes close to the Tu-95. So he is right that there is a line.

    Ummm... No. Tu-80/85 were aborted attempts at developing the Tu-4, but the Tu-95 was an all-new deign. It may have (I'm assuming) leveraged some engineering solutions from the B-29 clone, but to all intents and purpose it was a seperate development on a clean sheet. Swept wings, turbo-props, totally different fuselage and tail shaping...

    mnztr

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  mnztr on Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:07 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Hole wrote:The Tu-4 was developed first into the Tu-80 and than the Tu-85. The Tu-85 comes close to the Tu-95. So he is right that there is a line.

    Ummm...  No.  Tu-80/85 were aborted attempts at developing the Tu-4, but the Tu-95 was an all-new deign.  It may have (I'm assuming) leveraged some engineering solutions from the B-29 clone, but to all intents and purpose it was a seperate development on a clean sheet. Swept wings, turbo-props, totally different fuselage and tail shaping...  

    The TU-80 and 85 were developed from the TU-04 and were still piston powered. Only when a suitable engine came along, did TU-95 become possible. The swept wings were driven by aerodynamic requriements of capability provided by the engines. Of course structure, weight and payload all came hand in hand with the massive increase in power (6X) . If you cannot see the linage you are blind. There is zero chance Tupolev (as brilliant as he was) could have designed the TU-95 without having first designed the Tu-04
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:06 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Hole wrote:The Tu-4 was developed first into the Tu-80 and than the Tu-85. The Tu-85 comes close to the Tu-95. So he is right that there is a line.

    Ummm...  No.  Tu-80/85 were aborted attempts at developing the Tu-4, but the Tu-95 was an all-new deign.  It may have (I'm assuming) leveraged some engineering solutions from the B-29 clone, but to all intents and purpose it was a seperate development on a clean sheet. Swept wings, turbo-props, totally different fuselage and tail shaping...  

    The TU-80 and 85 were developed from the TU-04 and were still piston powered. Only when a suitable engine came along, did TU-95 become possible. The swept wings were driven by aerodynamic requriements of capability provided by the engines. Of course structure, weight and payload all came hand in hand with the massive increase in power (6X) . If you cannot see the linage you are blind. There is zero chance Tupolev (as brilliant as he was) could have designed the TU-95 without having first designed the Tu-04

    There is no "lineage".  Tu-80/85 proved to be a dead-end and were abandoned.  Tu-95 was a clean sheet. Just because Tupolev opted to retain some design features of the 80/85 such as the general arrangement of the forward fuselage/cockpit area doesn't mean the Tu-95 is related to the Tu-04.  It just means that the modernisations planned for the 80/85 were modified and rolled into the new aircraft.  Thats not a lineage.

    The only way to settle this would be to examine structural drawings of the Tu-04/80/85 and compare them to the Tu-95.  AFAIK no such details are available, so lets agree to disagree.

    BTW Tupolev didn't really "design" the Tu-04. It was a direct clone of the B-29, differing only in use of Soviet powerplant and internal equipment. Saying that he couldn't have developed the Tu-95 without first copying the B-29 is nonsense. That would be tantamount to saying that Tupolev learned his craft by copying the US article...

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