Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Share
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1857
    Points : 1853
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:27 pm

    No need to quote the article Eehnie ...
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 528
    Points : 528
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:18 pm

    His mind is so refined that it's invisible. In Russian: u nego um nastol'ko tonkiy, chto ego daje ne vidno! Very smart in naval strategy & procurement matters, etc., but still needs to be babysitted!
    I guess the Soviet legacy platforms r still very good for "deep modernization" as an alternative to new designs. The West & others r doing the same with their Cold War era planes, so no surprize!
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2679
    Points : 2719
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:52 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:With its wings swept back it is rather low drag so while it might use ABs to break the speed of sound it can likely cruise supersonically in dry thrust so its range would be rather good anyway.

    With the new engines being developed and a redesign with new materials I would suspect the new aircraft to be both lighter and with more engine power, so higher speed flight should be possible.
    .

    The madness behind Tu-160 in civil version can be explained then big Russian companies like Rosatom, Rosneft or Gazprom  can use it as corpo jest. If they would carry missile inside and land in Cuba or Venezuela it is different story.



    Didnt I tell you lads? Very Happy Time of travelling to Cuba, Venezuela or Nicaragua will be dramatically reduced especially with "special cargo". This would be still Russian govts jet thus nobody has right to make any check what's in cargo bay right? Laughing Laughing Laughing




    Source: Russian law enforcement agencies are interested in getting a passenger version of Tu-160
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4924993

    MOSCOW, 2 February. / TASS /. Russian law enforcement agencies are interested in obtaining a supersonic passenger aircraft based on the strategic missile carrier Tu-160, requests from them have already been submitted to the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC). This was reported by TASS on Friday, a source in the Russian military-industrial complex.


    "A number of power ministries of the Russian Federation expressed their desire to have a supersonic Tu-160 in the passenger version for official use, they already sent relevant inquiries to the UAC and its units engaged in the creation of long-range aircraft," the source said.

    He explained that these departments are interested in the fastest delivery of their managers and specialists to different points of Russia and the world. This is necessary both to maximize prompt response in the event of various emergency situations, and to reduce the duration of normal business trips.

    Series - at least seven machines
    The source specified that the design of the passenger version of the Tu-160 will be occupied by PJSC "Tupolev", and the construction - the Kazan aircraft plant named after SP Gorbunov. To ensure profitability of production, the minimum series, according to the interlocutor of TASS, should be at least 7-10 machines.

    The source noted that the UAC already has relevant theoretical developments, and the design of the aircraft should not be delayed. Passenger seats for several dozen people are supposed to be installed instead of on-board radio-electronic equipment. At the same time, it is not planned to rebuild the bombers that are in service or reserve, "a new machine will be created, which will retain the same elements of the design as the glider, the wing of the variable sweep, the tail section, as well as the NK-32 engines," he added.

    The TASS source also ruled out any possibility of leakage of secret technologies, even in the case of export shipments of the aircraft. "If we take off the Tu-160 equipment to ensure that it performs combat missions, then nothing more will remain in it," he explained.


    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6878
    Points : 6978
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 am


    Damn, they are really going at it on civilian Blackjack....

    I guess it's fine as long as it does not interfere with deliveries for VKS.

    Still, what about passenger space? What amount are we talking about here? And what about windows? Or would they just go with enclosed space with video screens instead of windows?
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 528
    Points : 528
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:19 am

    RossGuardia could also use it to deploy their spetsnaz & other teams. Also for SAR in remote areas, esp. oceans!
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6878
    Points : 6978
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:33 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:RossGuardia could also use it to deploy their spetsnaz & other teams. Also for SAR in remote areas, esp. oceans!

    I dunno man, pricetag, maintenance, operational costs... insane
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1808
    Points : 1959
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:53 am

    Talk is cheap.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2679
    Points : 2719
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:RossGuardia could also use it to deploy their spetsnaz & other teams. Also for SAR in remote areas, esp. oceans!

    I dunno man, pricetag, maintenance, operational costs... insane

    Something tell me that Putin was not only speculating. The decision IMHO is already made. The news abut power structures just confirm - passenger places perhaps 1 drum instead of 2 in passenger version flying to South America or African coast? ? Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
    avatar
    JohninMK

    Posts : 5984
    Points : 6049
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:37 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:RossGuardia could also use it to deploy their spetsnaz & other teams. Also for SAR in remote areas, esp. oceans!

    I dunno man, pricetag, maintenance, operational costs... insane

    Something tell me that Putin was not only speculating. The decision IMHO is already made. The news abut power structures just confirm - passenger places perhaps  1 drum instead of 2 in passenger version flying to South America or African coast? ?  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    In the Spetsnaz carrying mode a bomb bay will contain a fully fitted crew capsule/glider/boat. This will be ejected over the target area and either stay intact until reaching the ground/sea or deploy its passengers on the way down.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2679
    Points : 2719
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:04 am

    JohninMK wrote:

    In the Spetsnaz carrying mode a bomb bay will contain a fully fitted crew capsule/glider/boat. This will be ejected over the target area and either stay intact until reaching the ground/sea or deploy its passengers on the way down.

    In any case this will be a special passengers version to bring war ot US shores
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1857
    Points : 1853
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Isos on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:12 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:

    In the Spetsnaz carrying mode a bomb bay will contain a fully fitted crew capsule/glider/boat. This will be ejected over the target area and either stay intact until reaching the ground/sea or deploy its passengers on the way down.

    In any case this will be a special passengers version to bring war ot US shores

    A suicide mission you mean ?
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2679
    Points : 2719
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:30 am

    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:

    In the Spetsnaz carrying mode a bomb bay will contain a fully fitted crew capsule/glider/boat. This will be ejected over the target area and either stay intact until reaching the ground/sea or deploy its passengers on the way down.

    In any case this will be a special passengers version to bring war ot US shores

    A suicide mission you mean ?

    Same as any sub or bomber or hydrologic vessel near Us shores  during war. Its mission I can see be just deterrent so there is no war.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1219
    Points : 1225
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:18 am

    One possible use for a "civilian" Tu-160 is as a platform for an air-launched light satellite carrier, which can be "requisitioned" for air-launched heavy ASATs.  

    Air-launched ASATs have the advantage over land-based equivalents that they can be rapidly mobilised to the optimum firing position (at Mach 2 in the case of Tu-160), instead of having to wait for multiple orbital passes until the target presents itself to fixed firing locations.  This makes them a good rapid reaction choice in a high-tension scenario, eg where tensions develop and allow time for the carriers to be provisioned with launchers and payloads and placed on standby.  Fixed launches (silos) or mobile land-based will still provide better response time in those scenarios where a threat emerges without warning, as they are on standby 24/7/365.

    The payload of a Tu-160 would be sufficient to allow a heavy direct-ascent ASAT weapon to attack targets beyond LEO, allowing the RuAF to interdict US tactical war-fighting assets like recon and tracking/targeting birds in mid orbits.  Geostationary assets like commsats would remain targets for heavy land-based ASAT since airborne mobilisation offers no advantage in such cases.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2679
    Points : 2719
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:31 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:One possible use for a "civilian" Tu-160 is as a platform for an air-launched light satellite carrier, which can be "requisitioned" for air-launched heavy ASATs.  

    Air-launched ASATs have the advantage over land-based equivalents that they can be rapidly mobilised to the optimum firing position (at Mach 2 in the case of Tu-160), instead of having to wait for multiple orbital passes until the target presents itself to fixed firing locations.  This makes them a good rapid reaction choice in a high-tension scenario, eg where tensions develop and allow time for the carriers to be provisioned with launchers and payloads and placed on standby.  Fixed launches (silos) or mobile land-based will still provide better response time in those scenarios where a threat emerges without warning, as they are on standby 24/7/365.

    The payload of a Tu-160 would be sufficient to allow a heavy direct-ascent ASAT weapon to attack targets beyond LEO, allowing the RuAF to interdict US tactical war-fighting assets like recon and tracking/targeting birds in mid orbits.  Geostationary assets like commsats would remain targets for heavy land-based ASAT since airborne mobilisation offers no advantage in such cases.

    and 16,000 meters too. Well besides ministry f emergency needs to keep planes in constant alert right? Smile

    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 528
    Points : 528
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:44 am

    They have 2 MiG-31Ds for ASAT role. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-31#Variants
    http://www.businessinsider.com/china-russia-soon-able-destroy-us-satellites-pentagon-2018-1?utm_source=feedburner&%3Butm_medium=referral&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+businessinsider+%28Business+Insider%29

    As their territory is so vast, no need to wait long for satellites to overfly it. Tu-160 isn't needed for that role nor sneak on CONUS- the new subs with tsunami-causing nukes can do it off both coasts.

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 291
    Points : 291
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:04 pm

    They never went over the prototype stage, around 20 years ago or even more.

    If they are not on display at Monino et similia, they got scrapped a long long time ago.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1857
    Points : 1853
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:43 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:They never went over the prototype stage, around 20 years ago or even more.

    If they are not on display at Monino et similia, they got scrapped a long long time ago.

    Such things are generaly kept in reserve just in case.

    They will probably have a mig-41 for anti satelite role. Maybe su-57 could be used for that. It has the most powerfull radar and latest technology in terms of communication with air defence forces.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5957
    Points : 5992
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:14 am

    Isos wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:They never went over the prototype stage, around 20 years ago or even more.

    If they are not on display at Monino et similia, they got scrapped a long long time ago.

    Such things are generaly kept in reserve just in case.

    They will probably have a mig-41 for anti satelite role. Maybe su-57 could be used for that. It has the most powerfull radar and latest technology in terms of communication with air defence forces.

    Infra seekers are used in ASATs, and data is provided by ground stations, radar is of secondary value there. What you need is powerful carrier to provide launch parameters.

    From what we know MiG-31D project died, and A-60 kinda was funded partially now and then.

    Tu-160 would be interesting launch platform for both ASATs and satelites.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2337
    Points : 2325
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:34 am

    Wasn't Tu-22M supposed to fill that position as ASAT? It meets I think all the parameters.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1857
    Points : 1853
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:43 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:They never went over the prototype stage, around 20 years ago or even more.

    If they are not on display at Monino et similia, they got scrapped a long long time ago.

    Such things are generaly kept in reserve just in case.

    They will probably have a mig-41 for anti satelite role. Maybe su-57 could be used for that. It has the most powerfull radar and latest technology in terms of communication with air defence forces.

    Infra seekers are used in ASATs, and data is provided by ground stations, radar is of secondary value there. What you need is powerful carrier to provide launch parameters.

    From what we know MiG-31D project died, and A-60 kinda was funded partially now and then.

    Tu-160 would be interesting launch platform for both ASATs and satelites.

    Destroying a satelite is dangerous for the other satelites too, so for your own satelites because of all the small pieces produced by the explosion. They should invest in laser technology to burn the optics and electronics.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5957
    Points : 5992
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:02 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Wasn't Tu-22M supposed to fill that position as ASAT? It meets I think all the parameters.

    I suppose it does. But i havent heard of any official project related to it as ASAT carrier.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5957
    Points : 5992
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:05 am

    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:They never went over the prototype stage, around 20 years ago or even more.

    If they are not on display at Monino et similia, they got scrapped a long long time ago.

    Such things are generaly kept in reserve just in case.

    They will probably have a mig-41 for anti satelite role. Maybe su-57 could be used for that. It has the most powerfull radar and latest technology in terms of communication with air defence forces.

    Infra seekers are used in ASATs, and data is provided by ground stations, radar is of secondary value there. What you need is powerful carrier to provide launch parameters.

    From what we know MiG-31D project died, and A-60 kinda was funded partially now and then.

    Tu-160 would be interesting launch platform for both ASATs and satelites.

    Destroying a satelite is dangerous for the other satelites too, so for your own satelites because of all the small pieces produced by the explosion. They should invest in laser technology to burn the optics and electronics.

    As i said A-60 project was funded abit https://theaviationist.com/tag/beriev-a-60/
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1857
    Points : 1853
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:38 am


    As i said A-60 project was funded abit https://theaviationist.com/tag/beriev-a-60/

    They had during soviet time a ground based laser that I forget the name with which they tried to blind US satelites. But it wasn't precise and they failed. An airborn version would be worse and even US stoped their own program.

    A land version should be easier to design and operate.

    Same for anti satelites missile, it should be easier to use S-500 for that with a special missile with a big booster to replace the fighter task of lunching it from altitude.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1219
    Points : 1225
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 am

    Isos wrote:Destroying a satelite is dangerous for the other satelites too, so for your own satelites because of all the small pieces produced by the explosion. They should invest in laser technology to burn the optics and electronics.

    Ground-based directed energy weapons would inevitably be lasers, and beam divergence issues will greatly restrict beam power on target. A simple satellite countermeasure against laser attack on optics & sensors is to fit them with shutters activated by laser energy detectors. Sensors won't be blinded within the reaction time of the laser detector-shutter combo. Sensors and camera optics could also be concealed behind optical deflectors such that optical path is usually diverted to a laser energy detector, and the path is only opened to the sensor when laser energy is absent. Path is left open only as long as needed. In peace time, the path can be left open by default so that surveillance is continuous, but in times of tension/crisis the countermeasures could be activated and sensors only revealed when safe and as needed for snapshots.

    Clearly this doesn't work for missile EW birds that need to be active continuously, but since they sit in high geosynch orbit, there is no way a ground based laser could focus sufficient beam power to effectively attack them, and any effort at blinding them would be interpreted as a prelude to thermonuclear exchange, making such an attack a REALLY stupid idea.

    Star Trek solutions aren't the way to go, instead concentrate on using kinetic energy to decrease the birds "structural integrity".... attack
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17753
    Points : 18315
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:02 pm

    Over time lasers are becoming more powerful and more capable and cheaper, but of course it will be a while before they are actually anything close to being called cheap.

    Telescopes for looking at stars have deformable mirrors to compensate for the atmosphere to give a clear view of space from the ground and the same technique could be used for lasers too.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:06 am