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    Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

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    George1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:52 am

    What about additional Tu-160? Will they resume production?
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    TR1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:09 am

    Probably not. An expensive and lengthy project it would be. Not sure if any incomplete airframes are left at this point.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:51 am

    It would be very expensive to restart Tu-160 production.

    It would probably make rather more sense to give the existing Blackjacks and Bears upgrades and improvements to add precision conventional attack capabilities and improve commonality between the aircraft (including the Backfire), and invest in a new multirole aircraft to replace them all.

    Some sort of tailed flying wing perhaps would be ideal with no vertical tail surface.

    A flying wing has minimal RCS by design, and maximises internal volume for lots of fuel and a good payload for a strategic mission, while retaining the option of reduced fuel plus inflight refuelling with a much larger payload for a long endurance theatre bombing mission.

    The horizontal tail structure should enable control at supersonic speed with a rear mounted down force allowing stabilisation through the high drag period of transonic flight.

    A flying wing is good but a supercruising flying wing is better in terms of time to target and problems of interception.

    Even if it doesn't actually supercruise and requires afterburner briefly to accelerate through the speed of sound, as long as it can fly super sonic speeds in dry thrust this will greatly extend cruising range and reduce IR signature.

    It also offers the potential for a viable civilian supersonic transport alternative.
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    George1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:08 pm

    PAK-DA must be produced in large numbers to replace all bombers including Tu-22M3.

    What about a complement less expensive project that could replace Tu-22M3 in conventional role?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:59 am

    They talk about the PAK DA as having both theatre and strategic roles, but PAK DA will be START limited, whereas a dedicated theatre bomber like Tu-22M3 would not.

    Remember START not only limits numbers but allows for inspections and limits where the aircraft can be based.

    Some of the shorter range missions of the Tu-22M3 could be performed by the Su-34, but I have a soft spot for the Backfire and would like to see it with new engines and a range of new guided air to ground weapons.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:09 pm

    TR1 wrote:Probably not. An expensive and lengthy project it would be. Not sure if any incomplete airframes are left at this point.

    AFAIK there are still 2 unfinished airframes left in the Gorbunov plant in Kazan. Don't know if there are plans to finish them.
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    George1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:27 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Probably not. An expensive and lengthy project it would be. Not sure if any incomplete airframes are left at this point.

    AFAIK there are still 2 unfinished airframes left in the Gorbunov plant in Kazan. Don't know if there are plans to finish them.

    I think these 2 are for maintenance/modernization there. I see 12 in engels base and these 2 in kazan facilities from google earth
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:07 pm

    You will not find the 2 unfinished ones I am talking about on google.earth. They are only partly assembled and should still be inside the buildings.
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    SOC

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  SOC on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:14 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:You will not find the 2 unfinished ones I am talking about on google.earth. They are only partly assembled and should still be inside the buildings.

    Were there three unfinished airframes then? I thought one of the unfinished ones had already been completed and delivered?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:30 pm

    SOC wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:You will not find the 2 unfinished ones I am talking about on google.earth. They are only partly assembled and should still be inside the buildings.

    Were there three unfinished airframes then? I thought one of the unfinished ones had already been completed and delivered?

    Exactly.
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    George1

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    Russia to Upgrade Over 10 Tu-160 Bombers by 2020

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:31 pm

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120207/171200584.html

    The Russian Air Force will receive more than 10 modernized Tu-160 Blackjack strategic bombers by 2020, the Defense Ministry said on Tuesday.
    According to official data, Russia has at least 16 Tu-160 aircraft in service. There are plans to increase their number to 30.
    “The Tu-160 in service with the Air Force are already undergoing modernization,” Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said. “We are planning to receive more than 10 aircraft of this type.”
    The Tu-160 is a supersonic, variable-geometry heavy bomber, designed to strike strategic targets with nuclear and conventional weapons deep in continental theaters of operation.
    The modernized version, Tu-160M, features new weaponry, improved electronics and avionics, which double its combat effectivness.
    The upgraded aircraft will remain in service until a fifth-generation strategic bomber is developed, the Air Force officials earlier said.
    Russia will also modernize about 30 Tu-22M3 Backfire-C strategic bombers to a Tu-22M3M variant by 2020.



    Will Russia resume the Tu-160 production at last?

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    TR1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:44 pm

    Those plans are probably going to stay "plans".
    The idea has been floated around for years, and no work indicating this has actually been done.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:27 am

    I am skeptical too.

    If they can't afford to upgrade more than 10 Tu-160s in the next 8 years, then how can they afford to build from scratch 10 new aircraft, which had many important components built in the Ukraine in factories now likely bankrupt and collapsing?

    I would think it would be more efficient to use that money to upgrade all their Tu-160s... though perhaps this announcement means they already have 6 upgraded Tu-160s and are upgrading all the rest by 2020.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:33 am

    Russia to Upgrade Over 10 Tu-160 Bombers by 2020

    RIA Novosti

    19:42 07/02/2012 MOSCOW, February 7 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Air Force will receive more than 10 modernized Tu-160 Blackjack strategic bombers by 2020, the Defense Ministry said on Tuesday.

    According to official data, Russia has at least 16 Tu-160 aircraft in service. There are plans to increase their number to 30.

    “The Tu-160 in service with the Air Force are already undergoing modernization,” Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said. “We are planning to receive more than 10 aircraft of this type.”

    The Tu-160 is a supersonic, variable-geometry heavy bomber, designed to strike strategic targets with nuclear and conventional weapons deep in continental theaters of operation.

    The modernized version, Tu-160M, features new weaponry, improved electronics and avionics, which double its combat effectivness.

    The upgraded aircraft will remain in service until a fifth-generation strategic bomber is developed, the Air Force officials earlier said.

    Russia will also modernize about 30 Tu-22M3 Backfire-C strategic bombers to a Tu-22M3M variant by 2020.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120207-rianovosti03.htm
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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:46 am

    I think they might be confusing upgrades with new aircraft... they certainly had plans for 30 as that would be a more useful number of aircraft, but the cost of restarting production... just to make a dozen more aircraft would be incredibly expensive.

    I would think they have probably already upgraded 6 Blackjacks and the ten they talk about upgrading by 2020 will be the remaining 10 un-upgraded aircraft. At just over one upgrade per year they should be able to manage getting the whole fleet with the same upgrade by 2020. The original aircraft often introduced new features as they became available so each aircraft was different. This upgrade will make them the same.

    I would suspect that by 2018-2020 they will have a flying prototype of the PAK DA and then they will be able to start testing various things like conformal radar arrays built into the aircrafts skin, and of course new generation engines in the Blackjack both to test and to improve the performance of the existing platforms.

    By about 2024 or so they can start making PAK DAs to replace the Blackjacks and Bears.

    I rather suspect a smaller non strategic model might be worth developing for the threatre bombing role and interceptor role to replace both the Tu-22M3M and the Mig-31BM.

    A separate model would be needed so they don't count towards START treaty assets.
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    George1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:29 pm

    Tu-160 with Kh-55SM

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    George1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:31 am

    Modernization of Tu-95MS bombers

    According to Russian press reports, the MInistry of Defense begins a modernization program that will equip Tu-95MS bombers with new avionics and allow the aircraft to remain in service until 2020-2025 and probably longer - until 2035. Izvestia quotes a source in the Russian Air Forces Main Staff as saying that the upgrade will allow the Tu-95MS bombers to carry the new Kh-101 long-range cruise missile.

    In the last START data exchange that took place in 2009, Russia declared 63 deployed Tu-95MS bombers. According to the report, only 32 of them remain operational today and "about 60 aircraft" are in storage.

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2012/09/modernization_of_tu-95ms_bombe.shtml
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:31 pm

    Interesting.

    The Tu-95SM16 could carry ten cruise missiles under four wing pylons and 6 more missiles on a 6 round internal rotary launcher.

    The new Kh-101 and Kh-102 missiles are much larger than the old Kh-55 and Kh-555s. (The Kh-102 and Kh-55 are nuclear armed and the Kh-101 and the Kh-555 are conventionally armed and share the same guidance/navigation systems).

    The Kh-101/102 are too big to carry internally on the Bear so it is limited to carrying 10 of these missiles externally. Of course it could still carry 6 smaller missiles internally.

    Note the Blackjacks two weapon bays are enormous and can carry any of those missiles internally.

    Nice confirmation that the Kh-101 and Kh-102 are entering service... I assumed it happened a while ago.

    With upgrades the three Tupolev bombers should become rather capable bombers, whereas previously the two strategic bombers were actually cruise missile carriers with little effective bombing capability.

    The upgrades are supposed to add a range of guided weapon types including satellite guided bombs.

    The upgraded aircraft will be called Tu-160M, Tu-95SM16M, and Tu-22M3M.


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    George1

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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:Interesting.

    The Tu-95SM16 could carry ten cruise missiles under four wing pylons and 6 more missiles on a 6 round internal rotary launcher.

    Α fully armed Tu-95 will have considerably smaller range. The typical load is 6 missiles in internal rotary launcher.
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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:33 am

    For a supersonic bomber the extra drag would be a huge penalty, but for a subsonic bomber the effect on range is a lot less than you might think.

    The new missiles are actually much bigger and heavier than the older missiles, but are very aerodynamic and when mounted under wing pylons don't increase drag by a huge amount... they will fly a little slower for a little longer, but the reduction in range is not enormous, while the missile flight range is almost doubled...


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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:40 am

    Interesting news.

    I read recently that the Backfires can't carry the new X-101/102 missiles, but apparently they can carry the X-555
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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:41 am

    Never seen the Tu-22M carry subsonic cruise missiles, just Kh-22/21 and Kh-15.
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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:30 am

    I must say I have only ever seen Backfires with Kh-15, Kh-22M, and dumb bombs on multiple ejector racks.

    With its new upgrade however it should be able to carry a range of new weapon options including guided bombs and new missiles.

    The internal weapons bay is too small for any cruise missiles including Kh-55 or Kh-555... it is only big enough for Kh-15 or similar sized bomb (FAB-1,500 or so).

    I have seen drawings of twin cruise missile loads on four external hard points, and in terms of weight that should be a possible loadout, but of course there is a world of difference between could and does.

    I remember a picture from Carlos Kopp that showed the comparison between the F-111 and a Tu-22M3, which basically showed two F-111s with inflight refuelling with 8 cruise missiles as a payload over a 2,000km flight radius, with a single Tu-22M3 with 8 cruise missiles and no inflight refuelling with similar flight performance.



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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:36 am

    I suspect the Tu-22M had longer supersonic sustainability, no?
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    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:45 am

    GarryB wrote:I must say I have only ever seen Backfires with Kh-15, Kh-22M, and dumb bombs on multiple ejector racks.

    It might be able to carry a couple of larger missiles externally OR the reported X-555 was a misprint and they meant X-15's

    Правда, Х-101 все же получилась тяжелее Х-555 примерно в три-четыре раза. Поэтому нести ее могут только стратегические ракетоносцы Ту-160 и Ту-95. Бомбардировщик Ту-22 ее не поднимет. Вот поэтому «Бэкфайр» пока останется со старыми Х-555, — пояснил собеседник «Известий».

    http://izvestia.ru/news/535063

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