Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Share
    avatar
    zg18

    Posts : 881
    Points : 957
    Join date : 2013-09-26
    Location : Zagreb , Croatia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  zg18 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:31 pm

    George1 wrote:
    Honesroc wrote:No details aside from Shoigu's general announcement. Interesting news here...

    Russia to Renew Production of Tu-160 'Blackjack' Strategic Bomber

    i remember that the same intention had been announced in 2007-2008 but then wasn't implemented. Then they had spoken about 1 aircraft delivered per year.
    I think its a logic move to resume Tu-160 production, this aircraft could take over only the tactical bomber role while the PAK-DA will be the strategic nuclear bomber. Lets see

    IMHO it is other way around , PAK-DA is more replacement for Tu-22M3. Tu-160 is unique platform and should be back in production , it gives Russia strategic advantage that should not be tossed lightly.
    avatar
    AbsoluteZero

    Posts : 81
    Points : 105
    Join date : 2011-01-29
    Age : 29
    Location : Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  AbsoluteZero on Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:22 pm

    I read somewhere in the past that Tu-160 production wont be possible because a plant responsible for building critical components (vacum tubes?) for the aircraft has been privatized and dismantled in the 90s?
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4488
    Points : 4661
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:34 pm

    AbsoluteZero wrote:I read somewhere in the past that Tu-160 production wont be possible because a plant responsible for building critical components (vacum tubes?) for the aircraft has been privatized and dismantled in the 90s?

    I believe GarryB said that 'spine' of the airframe was built in Ukraine, an likely their going to build whole new production facilities with modern and more efficient domestic machine tools. I posted an article a while back from Rostec, stating that renovating the domestic machine tool industry should increase aerospace production capability by 4.5 times:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1920p990-vvs-news-photos#65243

    It should be noted that the NK-321 engine on the Tu-160 will be modernized with 5-Gen technology, slated for the PAK-DA, though it's likely that they won't have thr same exact NK-321 engine, likely the Tu-160's version will be optimized for exhaust speed (obviously for maximum speed) while the engine for the PAK-DA likely will be optimized for maximum thrust (for maximum payload and endurance).

    It's also likely the new Tu-160's will be a test bed for technologies slated for the PAK-DA, like the Su-35 was for the PAK-FA.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3222
    Points : 3308
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  medo on Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:07 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    AbsoluteZero wrote:I read somewhere in the past that Tu-160 production wont be possible because a plant responsible for building critical components (vacum tubes?) for the aircraft has been privatized and dismantled in the 90s?

    I believe GarryB said that 'spine' of the airframe was built in Ukraine, an likely their going to build whole new production facilities with modern and more efficient domestic machine tools. I posted an article a while back from Rostec, stating that renovating the domestic machine tool industry should increase aerospace production capability by 4.5 times:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1920p990-vvs-news-photos#65243

    It should be noted that the NK-321 engine on the Tu-160 will be modernized with 5-Gen technology, slated for the PAK-DA, though it's likely that they won't have thr same exact NK-321 engine, likely the Tu-160's version will be optimized for exhaust speed (obviously for maximum speed) while the engine for the PAK-DA likely will be optimized for maximum thrust (for maximum payload and endurance).

    It's also likely the new Tu-160's will be a test bed for technologies slated for the PAK-DA, like the Su-35 was for the PAK-FA.

    Agree. New, deeply modernized Tu-160 could be a step in development of new PAK DA.

    Firebird

    Posts : 953
    Points : 985
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Firebird on Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:39 pm

    The Tu-160 was a terrific plane for when it was built, and a terrific plane today.
    It always puzzled me, the suggestion that Tu-160 development would be a dead end ie that everything would revert to a subsonic Pak Fa.

    I wonder what could be done with a truly cutting edge Tu-160?
    In the same way that the Pak Fa is a gigantic development of the Su-35.

    It would be interesting to see how it could have enhanced stealth and supercruising etc.
    Perhaps greatly enhanced fuel economy too. If the fuselage could be broadened (to look like a Tu-244 concept), it could even be turned into an ultra rapid reaction cargo plane.

    I also wonder how many enhanced or even next gen Tu-160s could be built.
    The 15 or so units just sound rather expensive. Because you get fixed costs to build one, and then an economy of scale as you produce bigger numbers.

    Finally, it was interesting to learn that its NOT engine power that limits the speed. Its actually the heat that accumulates on the airframe. I wonder how much that could be solved today.

    Perhaps one use for the Tu-160 next gen would be as a drone carrier? ie supersonic drones.
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 1974
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:13 am

    Honesroc wrote:No details aside from Shoigu's general announcement. Interesting news here...

    Russia to Renew Production of Tu-160 'Blackjack' Strategic Bomber

    Wow...what a bombshell  Surprised Xmass is coming early this year Very Happy

    Coming from Shoigu I suppose makes it more plausible.


    I would say a lot would depend on whether they re-start engine production


    zg18 wrote:IMHO it is other way around , PAK-DA is more replacement for Tu-22M3. Tu-160 is unique platform and should be back in production , it gives Russia strategic advantage that should not be tossed lightly.

    I would tend to lean that way too. Although we don't know much about the PAK-DA


    Firebird wrote:I wonder what could be done with a truly cutting edge Tu-160?

    A lot Smile



    1. It would be interesting to see how it could have enhanced stealth and supercruising etc.

    2. Perhaps greatly enhanced fuel economy too.

    3. If the fuselage could be broadened (to look like a Tu-244 concept), it could even be turned into an ultra rapid reaction cargo plane.
    4. Perhaps one use for the Tu-160 next gen would be as a drone carrier? ie supersonic drones.


    1. Reduced signature - Yes ....Stealth - No

    2. Almost certainly

    3 + 4 Bloody Hell...I think you've been watching that PAK-TA video too much Very Happy




    I also wonder how many enhanced or even next gen Tu-160s could be built.

    They might have some left over fuselages kicking around somewhere....so maybe not such a big number  dunno
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:18 am

    Shaigu blowing smoke out of his ass.

    MiG-31 production is likelier to restart than this. Neither realistically will happen.
    avatar
    Manov

    Posts : 38
    Points : 47
    Join date : 2015-01-07
    Location : South America

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Manov on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:49 am

    Nah, it will be back in glory, modernized versions along pak da in the future. Shoigu its not like Rogozin, he has more credibility. Lets wait and see.
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1715
    Points : 1872
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:01 am

    TR1 wrote:Shaigu blowing smoke out of his ass.

    MiG-31 production is likelier to restart than this. Neither realistically will happen.

    There are 3 unfinished Tu-160 airframes in Kazan (Gorbunov) plant (decade old information that I have).

    There are also a number of unfinished MiG-31 airframes in Sokol (nizhni-Novgorod) plant.

    When Shoigu or anyone else talks about restarting production, they are talking about finishing these airframes. Unlikely that they will build new old-model planes from scratch.
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:14 am

    Pretty sure they already finished off the available unfinished airframes.

    IIRC the only possible source of more birds is a test article or two owned by Tupolev...but I think that has been flogged and isn't a serial unit in any case.

    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1715
    Points : 1872
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:03 am

    TR1 wrote:Pretty sure they already finished off the available unfinished airframes.

    IIRC the only possible source of more birds is a test article or two owned by Tupolev...but I think that has been flogged and isn't a serial unit in any case.


    Nope, they have not finished off the unfinished ones. There was a video about those unfinished MiG-31s in Sokol a few months ago ago (can't find it now).
    And nope, the unfinished Tupolev airframes I am talking about are not test articles.

    And regarding your poor choice of signatures. Here, I prepared a better one for you. You may use it.

    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:27 am

    I am talking about the Tu-160.
    Part of the increase of the force in the 2000s was them finishing a high-readiness bird at KAPO.
    I think there may have been two other unfinished birds, but they were not as close to being completed. And that was in the early 2000s....what state do you think they are in by now? Wouldn't be surprised if anything high value...dissapeared. And even if not, the entire supply chain is long fooked. The costs are just not worth it, especially when you consider Russia never has much more than half to 2/3rds of the Blackjack force flight worthy at one time.
    Would be much cheaper to get the fleet readyness up without this new production madness...

    Re: MIG-31s:
    I'd believe it, I have seen photos of Sokol when shit hit the fan, and there were quite a few fuselages laying around unfinished.
    HOWEVER:
    1.) Sokol can't make squat right now, as far as MiG-31s are concerned. I've been to the factory, it needs major money to do anything serious, and that is an understatement. There is a good photoreport out on the web about the MIG-31 construction parts of the factory....it is so degrade you would not believe it.
    2.) Russia has stored, relatively low hour MiG-31s. If more planes are badly needed, they can just yank several dozen more and BM them.

    That modification of my sig looks pretty awesome.
    Any chance you can add some Kavkaz-strong to it, Dagestan flavor perhaps?
    Gonna wear it with pride.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:41 am

    I too heard of Sokol plants degrading due to being ignored (they survived from MiG-29 modernization contracts and MiG-29K).  I think the more modern plants are the NAPO plant for the Su-34's or correct me if I am wrong.  A good investment into modernizing Sokol should be needed, since there is a growing demand for MiG-31's and eventually MiG-31's replacement that they are looking at.

    If anyone has a recent photo op of the plant, could you please link it?
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:45 am

    Knaaz is definitely more modern than NAPO; they make more sophisticated military products to date (Su-35, T-50 etc)
    NAPO does have some civilian product going on though, they are part of the Superjet chain.

    I would put Irkut over NAPO in terms of modernization as well...they benefited from good export sales before getting MOD orders...

    Compared to Sokol NAPO is of course rolling in bank.
    Not sure why they yanked Yak-130 production from Sokol....
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:48 am

    I recall last year or maybe year before of a major upgrade to the plant to pump out twice the amount of Su-34's. Interesting info on the civil aircraft parts also coming from NAPO, I thought that plant only did modernization of Su-24's and Su-34's manufacturing! Good to hear they are aiming at other things. Sokol is getting nearly no love, yet it is Mikoyans only manufacturing plant, isnt it? I can imagine if orders are placed for MiG-35's, they will definitely need to modernize the plant for sure. I know Sokol is going to be manufacturing the big UAV's with Transas, so I imagine there will be revenue from that too.
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 1974
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:51 am

    If it happens it won't be just 1-2 extra airframes....to be fair, Shoigu has only asked for a feasibility study for restarting production....so we'll see.

    Now all that's left is to re-install aerial refueling capability on the Backfires and the 'filthy imperialists' are truly fuked Cool russia
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16535
    Points : 17143
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:00 pm

    The problem with the tu-160 design... which was actually its advantage.... is that it has an enormous aluminium box structure for the swing wing assembly that needs to be cast in one piece and the only factory that could do it is in the Ukraine.

    this is truly a precision casting and to rebuild a new factory to do it for maybe a dozen more aircraft just isn't worth the enormous cost.

    That is why production of the Tu-160 was never restarted and likely wont be unless they could develop a more sophisticated wing design that does not require a swing wing... a serious redesign that would likely need as much testing as a brand new from scratch design and therefore also likely not worth it.

    Equally I rather doubt more MiG-31s will be built... they will more likely concentrate on a replacement instead.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Firebird

    Posts : 953
    Points : 985
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Firebird on Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:04 pm

    But I wonder if there are alternative options today? Perhaps more use of titanium and carbon fibre/exotic alloys.

    Its also interesting to note that once the Tu-160 was up and running, plans were being made for the Tu-260 and Tu-360.

    I think that one problem of the Tu160 was its running cost. Perhaps a major revamp could change this.

    Finally, I think provided it has fair levels of stealth (and I dont mean total stealth) a Tu-160's speed must have various uses. Whilst I can understand the idea of the Pak Da being subsonic, I still believe a Tu160/updated equivalent would have various uses.

    15 or so Tu-160s just sounds expensive to maintain. Thats why I reckon new production would make sense. They could have many uses including satellite launches as well. And I also wonder if Russia is thinking of a cargo carrying Tu-160 too (altho ofcourse the fuselage is rather narrow for various arms).
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1715
    Points : 1872
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:04 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    That modification of my sig looks pretty awesome.
    Any chance you can add some Kavkaz-strong to it, Dagestan flavor perhaps?
    Gonna wear it with pride.

    Here is your f-ed up Kavkaz-strong signature with an authentic Kizlyar knife from Dagestan.

    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3246
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:26 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    That modification of my sig looks pretty awesome.
    Any chance you can add some Kavkaz-strong to it, Dagestan flavor perhaps?
    Gonna wear it with pride.

    Here is your f-ed up Kavkaz-strong signature with an authentic Kizlyar knife from Dagestan.


    Come on Armenian that's so amateur it's embarrasing to look at lol!


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:27 pm

    Yeah, I think I'll pass on that.

    Instead I will add a transparent Imam Shamil next to the Eagle Wink .
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3246
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:Yeah, I think I'll pass on that.

    Instead I will add a transparent Imam Shamil next to the Eagle Wink .

    Hmm do an Imam Shamil with the Soviet red banner maybe? I'm sure he'd have approved.

    Or just that famous pic with the Soviet soldier hoisting the banner over the Reichstag.

    a89

    Posts : 105
    Points : 110
    Join date : 2013-01-09
    Location : Oxfordshire

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  a89 on Sat May 02, 2015 1:35 am

    15 or so Tu-160s just sounds expensive to maintain. Thats why I reckon new production would make sense. They could have many uses including satellite launches as well. And I also wonder if Russia is thinking of a cargo carrying Tu-160 too (altho ofcourse the fuselage is rather narrow for various arms).

    I find the whole idea not very feasible. I am not sure KAPO still has the capability to produce them anymore, as aircraft production in the last +20 years has been very low at this plant. Components produced in Ukraine should be replaced. It is a shame the 10 Ukrainian ones that were scrapped.

    I wonder if it would be better to activate some Tu-95. It is an obsolete platform, but nowadays it's more and more about the weapons.

    In any case, a strategic bomber is a good candidate to get the chop during a financial crisis.



    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 02, 2015 1:40 am

    a89 wrote:
    15 or so Tu-160s just sounds expensive to maintain. Thats why I reckon new production would make sense. They could have many uses including satellite launches as well. And I also wonder if Russia is thinking of a cargo carrying Tu-160 too (altho ofcourse the fuselage is rather narrow for various arms).

    I find the whole idea not very feasible. I am not sure KAPO still has the capability to produce them anymore, as aircraft production in the last +20 years has been very low at this plant. Components produced in Ukraine should be replaced. It is a shame the 10 Ukrainian ones that were scrapped.

    I wonder if it would be better to activate some Tu-95. It is an obsolete platform, but nowadays it's more and more about the weapons.

    In any case, a strategic bomber is a good candidate to get the chop during a financial crisis.




    What?

    No. Just no.
    avatar
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2149
    Points : 2250
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat May 02, 2015 8:38 am

    Sorry a bit Off Topic Off Topic but I wonder the people prefer calling Tu-160 as "White Swan" or "Blackjack" ?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Tu-160 and Tu-95MS ( Blackjack and Bears )

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:35 am