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    Air Defence of VDV units

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    GarryB

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 09, 2016 10:01 am

    The chassis is the GM-352. It is much larger and heavier than BMD-4 and is definitely not air-droppable.

    My mistake, but this:

    The crawler-mounted system, codenamed Ptitselov (Fowler), is a hybrid of the well-known Pantsir-S2 cannon-missile system mounted on an air-droppable BMD-4M armored vehicle.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160507/1039232708/russia-missiles-defense.html#ixzz488uUI3dQ

    Clearly says they are developing a tracked system called Fowler that is a hybrid of Pantsir-S2 and BMD-4M.

    Well I guess we have to live with this until facts are no revealed. For me Sosna makes not really difference since is no tmuch lighter and by order og magnitude worse solution.

    Actually as it is supposed to be replacing the SA-13, which in turn replaced the ZU-23 it is actually an enormous step up in performance... double the range with a time of flight to 10km of about 12 seconds... able to engage PGMs as well as aircraft and cruise missiles...

    Note the Navy is also adopting the SOSNA in smaller vessels and Pantsir-S in larger vessels.

    Besides 20km range to take down is real advantage for troops in area or concentration after drop.

    Only if you can detect enemy aircraft at that range...

    that is a lot of extra infrastructure they will have to carry around...

    IMHO 57mm module with 200/300 ammo can make bette real than Sosna. Longer range and ceiling.

    Not going to happen... even in a vehicle the size of the PT-76 they could barely get 80 rounds in that.. . a BMD-4M is much much smaller.

    Sosna is far lighter than Pantsir. Simply count. Pantsir have two big radars, search and tracking radar with missile guiding radio transmitter. Two radars also mean more computers and processors, etc. Than you have to count additional power supply unit, that the complex could work. Tracked Pantsir is placed on GM-355, which is also used for Tor and Buk complexes and have enough space for all needed components. Buy the way, Tor is weighting 34 tons and tracked Pantsir for sure have similar weight as Tor. GM chassis weight 24 tons, so the rest of the complex weight 10 tons. Placing Pantsir in BMD-4M is the same as placing Tor-M2 in it.

    I agree, but I think they have probably decided that a reduced Pantsir would allow engagement of aircraft before they fire their missiles, so overall would use fewer weapons than the shorter range SOSNA that would just have to deal with all the incoming PGMs.

    SOSNA is very much like a two stage Kornet... in fact it is only about 10kgs heavier in terms of missile size...

    Other problem is, that for now no one knows, how radars and their electronics will survive air dropping. It is not designed for such shocks as they are with landing after air drops. Weak points are electronic cards, waveguides, hydraulics, etc. Any breaks in them mean, that the system will not work. For air dropping they will need to increase strength of construction, what mean increasing weight.

    You just need to look up US experience in this... the Mauler I think it was called.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 09, 2016 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Note the Navy is also adopting the SOSNA in smaller vessels and Pantsir-S in larger vessels.

    They definitely should on Buyans and Co instead of Gibka


    GarryB wrote:
    Besides 20km range to take down is real advantage for troops in area or concentration after drop.
    Only if you can detect enemy aircraft at that range...
    that is a lot of extra infrastructure they will have to carry around...

    With technology progressing I would not be surprised if they mange to solve this problem. Eventually one machine with longer range radars and each TELAR with shorter range as backup mode but normally data is fed to it from radar machine.





    GarryB wrote:
    IMHO 57mm module with 200/300 ammo can make bette real than Sosna. Longer range and ceiling.

    Not going to happen... even in a vehicle the size of the PT-76 they could barely get 80 rounds in that.. . a BMD-4M is much much smaller.


    You are such a pessimist Garry, 80 rounds were in drum module ready to shoot in total 200 for Baikal 220M module. they managed to put it on BMP 3 so i presume with some restrictions why not on BMD4? 100mm gund they without many problems did manage.



    GarryB wrote:
    Sosna is far lighter than Pantsir. Simply count. Pantsir have two big radars, search and tracking radar with missile guiding radio transmitter. Two radars also mean more computers and processors, etc. Than you have to count additional power supply unit, that the complex could work. Tracked Pantsir is placed on GM-355, which is also used for Tor and Buk complexes and have enough space for all needed components. Buy the way, Tor is weighting 34 tons and tracked Pantsir for sure have similar weight as Tor. GM chassis weight 24 tons, so the rest of the complex weight 10 tons. Placing Pantsir in BMD-4M is the same as placing Tor-M2 in it.

    I agree, but I think they have probably decided that a reduced Pantsir would allow engagement of aircraft before they fire their missiles, so overall would use fewer weapons than the shorter range SOSNA that would just have to deal with all the incoming PGMs.

    SOSNA is very much like a two stage Kornet... in fact it is only about 10kgs heavier in terms of missile size...



    We need to see what hybrid is summoned ot live but reducing radar part, removing guns/ammo and leaving 8 launch tubes might give interesting result to keep ckear huge envelope free over VDV guys...


    BTW Pantsir´s missile is also kind of Hermes cousin right? Smile





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    George1

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:53 am

    Russian airborne divisions get advanced portable air defense systems

    The new short-range air defense missile systems need a smaller number of missiles for striking a target while the temperature range of its use has been expanded to minus 50 degrees Celsius

    PATRIOT PARK (Moscow Region), July 27. /TASS/. All the Russian airborne and air assault divisions have been rearmed with Verba new man-portable air defense missile systems, Airborne Force Commander Colonel-General Andrei Serdyukov said on Thursday.

    "We are currently completing the delivery of the fourth-generation Verba man-portable air defense missile systems to the Airborne Force. As of today, all airborne divisions have been supplied with these systems and now efforts are under way to deliver them to separate airborne assault brigades in a planned manner," the commander said on the eve of the 87th anniversary of establishing the Russian Airborne Force.

    The Verba man-portable air defense missile systems are capable of striking tactical aviation planes, attack helicopters, cruise missiles and remotely controlled aircraft in oncoming and catch-up courses in daytime and at night in the conditions of the target’s visual visibility, including amid background and artificial interference.

    The new systems are capable of hitting targets with low infrared emissions in a head-on engagement at the far boundary of the destruction zone at extremely low altitudes, the commander said.

    As compared to their predecessors, the new short-range air defense missile systems feature expanded combat capabilities and destroy targets highly effectively, despite powerful optical counter-measures, the commander said.

    As compared to the previous man-portable air defense missile systems, the Verba complex has its area of engaging targets with low emissions increased several times and its protection against powerful pyrotechnical interference boosted several dozen times.

    While the procedure of using the new man-portable air defense missile system in combat is similar to the procedure of employing its predecessors, the Verba system needs a smaller number of missiles for striking a target while the temperature range of its use has been expanded to minus 50 degrees Celsius, the commander said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/957965
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    George1

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  George1 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:27 pm

    Russia’s Airborne Force to get mobile air defense system by 2020

    It was reported earlier that Russia was creating the world’s first air-droppable anti-aircraft missile system on the basis of the BMD-4M armored vehicle

    MOSCOW, August 2. /TASS/. The most advanced air-droppable short-range air defense missile system code-named Ptitselov (Fowler) will become operational in Russia’s Airborne Force in 2020, a source in the Russian defense sector told TASS on Wednesday.

    "The development of the Ptitselov is currently at the stage of experimental design work, which is expected to be completed by the end of 2019 and from 2020 this short-range complex based on the BMD-4M combat vehicle is set to become operational in the Airborne Force’s air defense missile units," the source said.

    "By its combat capabilities, including by the altitude and the range of target engagement, the Ptitselov will surpass the air defense systems currently operational in the Airborne Force by two times," the source added.

    The source did not give the Ptitselov’s major characteristics but noted that it was both aircraft transportable and air-droppable from military transport planes.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/958706
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    Hole

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:25 pm

    Ptsilov is Sosna for the VDV. A good first step, but they need something like Buk-M3 or S-350, a smaller brother of the S-300V. The lengthened Chassis of the BTR-MDM should be able to carry 4 9M96 missiles.

    PS: a smaller brother of the Iskander would also be useful.
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    medo

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:02 pm

    Hole wrote:Ptsilov is Sosna for the VDV. A good first step, but they need something like Buk-M3 or S-350, a smaller brother of the S-300V. The lengthened Chassis of the BTR-MDM should be able to carry 4 9M96 missiles.

    PS: a smaller brother of the Iskander would also be useful.

    No, any of those medium or long range SAMs are too heavy to be air dropable. If VDV secure enough big are, that Il-76 could land, than they could bring regular Buks or S-300V.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:25 am

    As mentioned... too heavy and not mobile...

    They want something they can air drop and that can fire while moving cross country so it does not hold up the rest of the force.

    If they need something heavier air cover could be used to support their operations and protect from air attack too... but their best defence will be their mobility and surprise.
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    Hole

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

    Post  Hole on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:28 am

    A 96M6 weights between 330 and 420 kg. 4 of them would be max. 1,7 tons. The BTR-MDM Version of it would be leighter than an BMD-4M. A battery would consist of a mobile command post, a Radar vehicle an four carriers + two or four transloaders. Could be air-dropped and would be as mobile as all other vehicles of the VDV. Logistics would be now problem, like with an Buk-M3 system.

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    Re: Air Defence of VDV units

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