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    Air Defence of VDV units

    George1
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    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:11 pm

    Russian Airborne Troops Test New Air Defense Control System

    The Barnaul-T automated air defense control system was used for the first time during drills involving airborne troops units, which started on Monday in Russia's Pskov region, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — According to the spokesperson, the Barnaul-T system, recently delivered to the Pskov-based airborne troops division, is supposed to reduce the time needed to search for and ultimately destroy air targets.

    "Divisions of Russian airborne troops have put the latest Barnaul-T automation systems in operation for the first time in order to provide coverage for areas of high [airborne] divisional concentration," a ministry spokesperson said.

    On Monday morning, a formation of airborne troops in the Pskov region was set to the highest degree of combat readiness. Over 2,500 paratroopers and about 300 military hardware units are participating in the planned military exercises. The exercises are expected to last for five days.

    The Barnaul-T automated air defense control system was developed to search for air targets, receive information from other systems of detection, as well as plotting targets' trajectories.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160215/1034779039/ministry-barnaul-test-troops.html#ixzz40FmsL0eG
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    Post  George1 on Wed May 04, 2016 5:29 pm

    World's first air-droppable missile system being developed for Russian Airborne Forces

    The system is being created for the Russian Airborne Forces on the basis of the BMD-4M combat vehicle

    MOSCOW, May 4. /TASS/. The world's first air-droppable air defense missile system is being created for the Russian Airborne Forces on the basis of the BMD-4M combat vehicle, a source in the Russian Defense Ministry told TASS on Wednesday.

    "The work is underway on the on the creation of an air-droppable anti-aircraft missile defense system based on the BMD-4M airborne combat vehicle. The experimental design work is codenamed Ptitselov (Fowler)," the source said.

    According to him, the system will be parachuted.

    The Russian Airborne Forces currently have in service various modifications of the Strela-10 air defense missile system the basic model of which had been made operational in 1976.

    The track-mounted Sadovnitsa BMD-4M combat vehicle is a version of the BMD-4 vehicle with a new body, engine, chassis and other units. It is equipped with the Bakhcha-U combat unit, which comprises two guns - one of 100-mm caliber and another - of 30-mm caliber, and a machine gun. Previously, a Russian Defense Ministry source told TASS that the BMD-4M vehicle, along with the BTR-MDM (Rakushka) armored personnel carrier entered service. According to other previous reports, under the existing contract the Russian Defense Ministry should receive within three years up to 250 of these airborne combat vehicles and armored personnel carriers.


    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/873741
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 05, 2016 12:09 pm

    George1 wrote:World's first air-droppable missile system being developed for Russian Airborne Forces

    The system is being created for the Russian Airborne Forces on the basis of the BMD-4M combat vehicle

    MOSCOW, May 4. /TASS/. The world's first air-droppable air defense missile system is being created for the Russian Airborne Forces on the basis of the BMD-4M combat vehicle, a source in the Russian Defense Ministry told TASS on Wednesday.

    "The work is underway on the on the creation of an air-droppable anti-aircraft missile defense system based on the BMD-4M airborne combat vehicle. The experimental design work is codenamed Ptitselov (Fowler)," the source said.

    According to him, the system will be parachuted.

    The Russian Airborne Forces currently have in service various modifications of the Strela-10 air defense missile system the basic model of which had been made operational in 1976.

    The track-mounted Sadovnitsa BMD-4M combat vehicle is a version of the BMD-4 vehicle with a new body, engine, chassis and other units. It is equipped with the Bakhcha-U combat unit, which comprises two guns - one of 100-mm caliber and another - of 30-mm caliber, and a machine gun. Previously, a Russian Defense Ministry source told TASS that the BMD-4M vehicle, along with the BTR-MDM (Rakushka) armored personnel carrier entered service. According to other previous reports, under the existing contract the Russian Defense Ministry should receive within three years up to 250 of these airborne combat vehicles and armored personnel carriers.


    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/873741


    I do not think it will be Verba or someting like that, it´s gonna be Pantsir. Now question Pantsir or better Pantsir SM?

    1) Tass has split VDV news in more parts (you know advert hits Smile

    Expert: aviatechnology anti-aircraft system will allow airborne troops to repel the attacks from great heights


    MOSCOW, may 4. /TASS/. New anti-aircraft missile system created for the airborne troops of Russia, will allow them to repel attacks from medium and high altitudes, which can not cope with existing Avialesookhrana's air defenses. This opinion was expressed in an interview with TASS chief editor of the magazine "Arsenal Fatherland" Victor Murakhovski.

    Earlier, a source in the Russian defense Ministry told TASS that in Russia on the basis of the combat vehicle BMD-4M is created first in the world aviatechnology anti-aircraft missile system. Work, according to the source, are conducted under the code "Fowler".

    "Given that the means of air attack of the enemy are improved, appear in the number of drone strike aircraft, the task of covering from the modern means of air attack is very important. The Russian army first in the world to get such SAM system adapted for parachute landing. In other armies of the world such complexes are not available," - said murakhovski.
    He reiterated that the Marines have no anti-aircraft missile complexes, which could be planted parachute, except portable - type "Needle" or "willow".

    "Such systems work well for direct cover of troops on the borders of hostilities during deployment, headquarters, communication nodes, but they can not work by means of air attack in force with a large range and from medium and high altitudes", - said the Agency interlocutor.
    Therefore, he explained, and it was decided to equip airborne new complex on the chassis of the combat vehicle landing BMD-4M. "We know that this chassis is already adapted for the landing parachute, so SAM will also be able to parachute so," - said murakhovski.
    The expert also reminded that the means of air defense formations and units of airborne troops United using a set of automation "Barnaul-T", which has no analogues in the world.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3257100

    2) 2-3 years ago there was discussion about Pantsir on tracked chassis

    Air Defence of VDV units - Page 2 Bm-pancir_250814_1


    or here on BMP-3 chassis
    Air Defence of VDV units - Page 2 P841
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    Post  medo on Thu May 05, 2016 2:30 pm

    Pantsir is too heavy for VDV. Most probably Sosna complex placed on BMD-4M chassis.
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    Post  George1 on Fri May 06, 2016 2:28 am

    medo wrote:Pantsir is too heavy for VDV. Most probably Sosna complex placed on BMD-4M chassis.

    Yes thumbsup

    New missile system for Russian Airborne Forces may get combat module from Sosna system
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 06, 2016 8:15 am

    medo wrote:Pantsir is too heavy for VDV. Most probably Sosna complex placed on BMD-4M chassis.

    Well original info wa saying about large rang/high altitude for missiles so sosna does not fit there but Pantsir can. Second There was 2light2 Pantsir planned with 8 missiles and no gun modules on BMP chassis.

    We´ll see when anything will be confirmed I am afraid.
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    Post  sepheronx on Fri May 06, 2016 10:29 am

    Yeah, sosna not a good idea. It's altitude cannot reach modern UCAV's, so they would be sitting ducks behind enemy lines from UAV's. But the missiles from Pantsir have the altitude
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 06, 2016 1:24 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Yeah, sosna not a good idea. It's altitude cannot reach modern UCAV's, so they would be sitting ducks behind enemy lines from UAV's. But the missiles from Pantsir have the altitude

    BTW There is version for VDV in Pantsir applications´ range up in my post, it was not made by me Smile so this was planned. Real game changer to  me would be Pantsir SM. If there are not 24 or 12 cells and no guns neither extra ammo on board I do not see why it was to be heavy?


    Characteristics:
    Operational range, up to 40km
    Flight ceiling, to 35 km

    Источник: http://bastion-opk.ru/pantsir-sm/ ОВТ «ОРУЖИЕ ОТЕЧЕСТВА» A.V.Karpenko

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir-S1
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сосна_(зенитный_ракетный_комплекс)


    Weight of missile w conainer:
    Sosna w container  42kg
    Pantsir S1              90 kg

    Ranges:
    Sosna                    10km
    Pantsir S1               20km

    Ceilings:
    Sosna                      5km
    Pantsir S1               15km


    So what penalty of weight we are talking about? 8x90-12x42= 216kg...BMPD-4M carrier mass is about 15t right?
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    Post  medo on Fri May 06, 2016 7:59 pm

    Guys, be realistic. Neither Tor neither Pantsir could be air-droppable, because they are too heavy. Sosna is the maximum, they could get to be air-droppable. Only alternative could be SAM complex based on Igla-S or Verba missiles, which have even shorter range. This doesn't mean, that VDV could not be equipped with far more potent SAMs like Tor, Pantsir or even Buk, only they will not be air-droppable. This only mean, that Sosna will be the first in landing zone to secure area, that planes could lend there and bring heavier complexes.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 06, 2016 8:56 pm

    medo wrote:Guys, be realistic. Neither Tor neither Pantsir could be air-droppable, because they are too heavy. Sosna is the maximum, they could get to be air-droppable. Only alternative could be SAM complex based on Igla-S or Verba missiles, which have even shorter range. This doesn't mean, that VDV could not be equipped with far more potent SAMs like Tor, Pantsir or even Buk, only they will not be air-droppable. This only mean, that Sosna will be the first in landing zone to secure area, that planes could lend there and bring heavier complexes.

    depends what Pantsir did you mean for VDV or om KAMAZ with guns and extra ammo? The Sosna module was invented by Murakhovvski who sees only  KaMAZ (with extra ammo, guns and 12 missiles)  airdropped and not BMD-4M chassis, with 2x4 missiles...Parachutes are till about 18t right? BMD weight difference with Pantisr is 200kg...for AAD of different class, inluding hypersonic missiles and high flying drones/planes? . Well as long as  I see conformation I believe in Pantsir Smile

    Murakhovsky version of VVDV Pantsir
    Air Defence of VDV units - Page 2 19610176


    So this on BMD 4 chassis cannot be air droppable?
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    Post  medo on Fri May 06, 2016 9:18 pm

    So much reduced Pantsir doesn't give much over Sosna. It have longer range, but in this version it depends on thermal imager and TV as it doesn't have tracking radar. But it is still heavier than Sosna, because of longer heavier missiles, which need stronger elevating hydraulics and mechanism. Also, Pantsir missiles are radio guided and it need additional computers and signal processors to guide missiles, while Sosna is laser beam riding missile. Space in BMD is more compact than in BMP. Space and weight are most important factors for air-droppable systems.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 06, 2016 10:22 pm

    medo wrote:So much reduced Pantsir doesn't give much over Sosna. It have longer range, but in this version it depends on thermal imager and TV as it doesn't have tracking radar. But it is still heavier than Sosna, because of longer heavier missiles, which need stronger elevating hydraulics and mechanism. Also, Pantsir missiles are radio guided and it need additional computers and signal processors to guide missiles, while Sosna is laser beam riding missile. Space in BMD is more compact than in BMP. Space and weight are most important factors for air-droppable systems.

    Who says there is no tracking radar if we did not see any pictures or confirmations. just one odlish pic. True, there is penalty in weight. I never claimed there is not but

    1) BMD-4 is 13,6ton with turret

    2) 18 ton max can be parachute dropped (original Pantsir is about 20ton right?)

    So it is good trade for quantum leap with AAD. Especially that Pantsir SM parameters are close to Buk missiles and can defend also against hypersonic missiles. .

    As for Sosna in such case BMD-4M with 57mm module with programmable ammo would be better option longer range/ceiling and cheaper ammo.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 07, 2016 7:31 am

    medo wrote:Pantsir is too heavy for VDV. Most probably Sosna complex placed on BMD-4M chassis.

    What are you talking about? VDV specifically contacted both Kamaz and KB Tula to develop an air-droppable Pantsir:

    In particular, the defense Ministry is very interested in a marine complex. Already decided that, under the sea "armor" will modernize a number of destroyers and other large ships. In addition, in the interests of Russian Ground Forces and Airborne developed a modification of the anti-aircraft missile and gun complex "armor" crawler-based KAMAZ "Typhoon-K" .

    http://rostec.ru/news/4191

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    Post  medo on Sat May 07, 2016 9:26 am

    Typhoon-K based Pantsir will be air mobile, but not air-droppable. No one in a right mind will drop so expensive and heavy complex from the plane. Sosna is lighter, cheaper and without radars, so more suitable for air dropping. Pantsirs will be bring later to the secure area, where the plane could land.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 07, 2016 1:42 pm

    I do not think it will be Verba or someting like that, it´s gonna be Pantsir. Now question Pantsir or better Pantsir SM?

    Can't be Verba, that is a manpad.

    He reiterated that the Marines have no anti-aircraft missile complexes, which could be planted parachute, except portable - type "Needle" or "willow".

    Igla is needle and verba is willow so it is not either of them.


    Well original info wa saying about large rang/high altitude for missiles so sosna does not fit there but Pantsir can. Second There was 2light2 Pantsir planned with 8 missiles and no gun modules on BMP chassis.

    We´ll see when anything will be confirmed I am afraid.

    AFAIK they were planning for SOSNA to be the solution but I suspect experience with air power flying high over targets in Syria they might decide Pantsir-S with better altitude capability might be a better option if it can be made light enough.

    So what penalty of weight we are talking about? 8x90-12x42= 216kg...BMPD-4M carrier mass is about 15t right?

    Not so much the missiles... SOSNA is a simple missile with command guidance while the booster burns and laser beam riding to target... in other words it is like Kornet.

    The Pantsir on the other hand needs radar and other systems to work even though the missile is simple command guided it needs to detect and kill targets at much greater ranges which makes it rather heavier and rather more expensive.

    As for Sosna in such case BMD-4M with 57mm module with programmable ammo would be better option longer range/ceiling and cheaper ammo.

    SOSNA missiles are actually rather small... comparable in weight with the ATAKA and Krisantema ATGMs at just over 40kgs and not that much heavier than Kornet-EM which is 33kgs.

    More importantly the guidance system it uses is small compact and relatively cheap.... though lacking range.

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    Post  DerWolf on Sat May 07, 2016 1:52 pm

    RT said that VDV is going to have Pantsyr and not Sosna as air defence weapon.
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    Post  medo on Sat May 07, 2016 2:05 pm

    VDV will most probably have both. Sosna as air droppable SAM and Pantsir as air mobile SAM.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sat May 07, 2016 6:49 pm

    Guys,
    I strongly suggest you listen to what Medo is saying. He has served in military in air defense.

    Sosna is excellent for an airdroped unit.

    Gunship,
    The photo of the simlified and less capable Pantsir you posted is not a BMD-4 chassis, it is a BMP-3 based chassis which is bigger.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 08, 2016 8:44 am

    A BMP-3 chassis would not be air droppable... it is just too heavy even with a lighter BMP-3 turret... with a Pantsir or SOSNA turret it would be more than 20 tons...

    The SOSNA was being developed for the VDV and the Army as a cheaper lighter air defence weapon to replace the SA-13 class systems.

    I can understand them wanting Pantsir as it is more capable, but it is also much heavier and more complex and much more expensive.

    An added advantage of the SOSNA is its light weight and compact nature... I have seen a very small trailer mount for the system with a small operator cabin, an EO ball turret for aiming and finding targets, 4 ready to launch missiles and a single twin barrel 30mm cannon.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 08, 2016 11:59 am

    Don't know what i did with my post but it seems to have disappeared.

    Anyway the gist of it is that sputnik has an article showing Pantsir on a BMD-4 chassis... photographed by Vitaly I might add.

    It also mentions SOSNA.

    I am suspecting SOSNA will replace the SA-13 in army formations based on the same MTLB chassis initially but I suspect on the new platforms too later on.

    For the VDV I suspect they want the longer range of Pantsir to protect them and have developed a mini Pantsir for that purpose.

    Hard to tell from the image but it is possible that a battery of these new vehicles might have a radar vehicle and all the rest with EO and more missiles... just me guessing... though the missiless don't weigh that much.

    I would think a mix of Pantsir and SOSNA missiles would be ideal like the Pantsir/Kornet mix in the ground forces as the smaller lighter SOSNA would be ideal for hitting incoming weapons like Hellfire or even Javelin.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 08, 2016 12:29 pm

    Link to Sputnik article I was talking about...

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160507/1039232708/russia-missiles-defense.html

    The top piece has photo from rear of BMD-4 with Pantsir missiles on top, while further down the page shows SOSNA on MTLB chassis... which is known to not be air droppable... the SA-13 was not air droppable either and this is what is to be replaced.

    I suspect the Pantsir BMD-4 will be the main replacement for the SA-13, while the trailer SOSNA could replace the SA-13 and ZU-23... it could be towed around the battlefield by a BTR-BDM...
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sun May 08, 2016 1:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:Link to Sputnik article I was talking about...

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160507/1039232708/russia-missiles-defense.html

    The top piece has photo from rear of BMD-4 with Pantsir missiles on top, while further down the page shows SOSNA on MTLB chassis... which is known to not be air droppable... the SA-13 was not air droppable either and this is what is to be replaced.

    That is the photo of the tracked version of Pantsir that has not been adopted yet. The chassis is the GM-352. It is much larger and heavier than BMD-4 and is definitely not air-droppable.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 08, 2016 1:11 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Guys,
    I strongly suggest you listen to what Medo is saying. He has served in military in air defense.

    Sosna is excellent for an airdroped unit.

    Gunship,
    The photo of the simlified and less capable Pantsir you posted is not a BMD-4 chassis, it is a BMP-3 based chassis which is bigger.

    But I respect medo for his expertise just disagree on this topic Smile As for pic I should add my description was to laconic : i wanted you jut to see then yes you can place this.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 08, 2016 1:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:Link to Sputnik article I was talking about...

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160507/1039232708/russia-missiles-defense.html

    The top piece has photo from rear of BMD-4 with Pantsir missiles on top, while further down the page shows SOSNA on MTLB chassis... which is known to not be air droppable... the SA-13 was not air droppable either and this is what is to be replaced.

    I suspect the Pantsir BMD-4 will be the main replacement for the SA-13, while the trailer SOSNA could replace the SA-13 and ZU-23... it could be towed around the battlefield by a BTR-BDM...

    Well I guess we have to live with this until facts are no revealed. For me Sosna makes not really difference since is no tmuch lighter and by order og magnitude worse solution.

    Besides in almost every press release they say: medium to high altitudes...what make perfect sense in western aggressors´ doctrine bomb from high above and use drones also flying high. Besides 20km range to take down is real advantage for troops in area or concentration after drop.

    IMHO 57mm module with 200/300 ammo can make bette real than Sosna. Longer range and ceiling.



    TheArmenian wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Link to Sputnik article I was talking about...

    That is the photo of the tracked version of Pantsir that has not been adopted yet. The chassis is the GM-352. It is much larger and heavier than BMD-4 and is definitely not air-droppable.

    That´s why Pantsir droppable will be on BMD-4M (still below 18t limit) Razz
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    Post  medo on Sun May 08, 2016 8:23 pm

    Sosna is far lighter than Pantsir. Simply count. Pantsir have two big radars, search and tracking radar with missile guiding radio transmitter. Two radars also mean more computers and processors, etc. Than you have to count additional power supply unit, that the complex could work. Tracked Pantsir is placed on GM-355, which is also used for Tor and Buk complexes and have enough space for all needed components. Buy the way, Tor is weighting 34 tons and tracked Pantsir for sure have similar weight as Tor. GM chassis weight 24 tons, so the rest of the complex weight 10 tons. Placing Pantsir in BMD-4M is the same as placing Tor-M2 in it.

    Other problem is, that for now no one knows, how radars and their electronics will survive air dropping. It is not designed for such shocks as they are with landing after air drops. Weak points are electronic cards, waveguides, hydraulics, etc. Any breaks in them mean, that the system will not work. For air dropping they will need to increase strength of construction, what mean increasing weight.

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