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    Air Defence of VDV units

    medo
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    Post  medo on Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:02 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2010/12/27/strela/

    According to article VDV get modernized Strela-10M3 with newer versions of missiles and equipped with data link to get informations about targets from CP or other sources, that it could woork integrated in larger air defense complex. Unfortunately it still doesn't have TI night sight to operate in night time and is still day time only. Anyone know, if they will get night capabilities? VDV is still without air defense in night time.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:40 am

    The MTLB with the SA-13 system is not air droppable... it is very likely they will work on a BMD chassis with this missile for VDV service.

    BTW it is very likely these vehicles will have Image Intensification equipment and with a data link to direct them to any aircraft in their airspace they should be fully capable of night and bad weather operations.

    Remember these missiles have lock on ranges of about 5km in range and something like 3km in altitude so the expense of a Thermal Imager is difficult to justify. A decent 3rd or 4th gen II is easily good enough... especially when the data link will tell them what to look for, where, and when.
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    Post  medo on Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:13 pm

    Air Defence of VDV units 0_594610

    Strela-10M3, which VDV receive is standard version on MT-LB vehicle. It have data link with additional radio antenna, bit it doesn't have night channel in a box on the top of the left launcher. I doubt it have II tube inside its optical sight on the right side of turret.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:00 am

    Most armoured vehicles of the SA-13 era had passive II sights so I really wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have the same.

    It has a radar fitted but it is only a ranging radar to make sure the target is within range before a missile is launched.

    According to the advertisement in Russias Arms 2001-2002 the Strela-10M has day and night capability in clear visual conditions.
    It offers an upgrade that offers day and night capability in limited visibility conditions too.

    The modernised 9M37M missile has an enlarged warhead (from 3.5kg to 5kg) and a new 8 beam laser proximity fuse replacing the older 4 beam pulsed fuse so now it is much more effective against much smaller targets like UAVs.


    http://en.rian.ru/video/20101227/161951041.html

    If you watch the above video (in English) you will see right at the end they say that the SA-13 can't be air dropped, which is not as big a problem as it sounds as an airborne mission often involves parachuting onto an airbase and taking it over so heavier equipment can be landed. The video (at the end) states a new vehicle is being developed to replace the SA-13 that will be air droppable.
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    Post  medo on Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:00 am

    Most armoured vehicles of the SA-13 era had passive II sights so I really wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have the same.

    According to the advertisement in Russias Arms 2001-2002 the Strela-10M has day and night capability in clear visual conditions.
    It offers an upgrade that offers day and night capability in limited visibility conditions too.
    [quote]

    I didn't know, that original Russian Strela-10 have II tube in its optical sight. As I know before, maybe this is true for export Strela-10, its optical sight is just for day use and doesn't have any night channel, maybe that's the reason, why they tested a prototype with additional TI night channel placed on the left launcher connected with additional display for operator in turret.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:39 am

    I don't think they will introduce the old Strela, I think it is more likely they will buy the upgraded Strela as an interim solution till their BMD based vehicle is ready.

    I would be very very surprised if the older models of the SA-13 didn't have II sighting optics even if they were initially gen 1 or 1+. In fact I would expect the ones made in the 80s to be gen 2.

    I would even expect the SA-9 before it to have II sights... it carried lots of antenna boxes on it to detect emissions from aircraft like terrain following radar emissions and radio altimeters etc etc. I don't see why they wouldn't fit it with II sights.
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    Post  medo on Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:42 pm

    I don't know for Russian home versions, but export versions of Strela-1 and Strela-10 here in ex-Yugoslavia didn't have any II tube in its sighting system. Maybe 2nd+ or 3rd gen II tubes are small enough to install inside modified optical sight.
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    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:58 pm

    http://en.rian.ru/video/20101227/161951041.html

    In the vid at about 1:11 when the crew is fitting the missile on the rack; missile on the left side has a glassy tip; while the missile being fitted has pure white tip. What are these two indicating??
    Is the left one a guiding laser
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:00 am

    Even if I am wrong and the standard model SA-13s had simple optic sights this is an upgraded model they are talking about being introduced.

    Adding an II channel to an optics system is no big deal. Most Soviet tanks had night vision equipment even back to the T-54 but it was either active IR or later passive II. Obviously active IR makes no sense for a SAM system because few active IR emitters can illuminate targets 3-5km away, but II makes sense because targets need to be fairly visible optically to be engaged by this system anyway.

    @nightcrawler
    It is most likely a mix of different missile models. Some models combine IR and normal light seekers, while others operate only in the IR spectrum. For a seeker that can see IR only it makes sense to block other frequencies to prevent interference, but for seekers that can see in the visible light spectrum the glass needs to be clear in IR and visible light frequencies. (Note I called it glass but normal glass actually blocks IR so it will actually be some sort of crystal that is clear in IR and the visible light frequencies.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:16 am

    According to this:


    http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.kbtochmash.ru%2fproducts%2fproducts_7.html

    It has thermal sights and is all weather and day night capable.
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    Post  medo on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:According to this:


    http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.kbtochmash.ru%2fproducts%2fproducts_7.html

    It has thermal sights and is all weather and day night capable.

    True,it have thermal sights in a box placed on the left launcher. And one little detail, it's Strela-10M4 and VDV receive Strela-10M3.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:04 am

    I have trouble believing that they didn't put an II night vision channel on the aiming optics... especially when they went to the expense of adding a datalink connection.

    An II sight of second generation would be a small fraction of the cost of one missile and yet would make the users of the system able to operate the missile in any conditions the missile could be effective. (note in very bad weather the seeker is as badly effected as the aiming optics so it doesn't matter if the optics can't see through steel...)
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    Post  medo on Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:24 am

    GarryB wrote:I have trouble believing that they didn't put an II night vision channel on the aiming optics... especially when they went to the expense of adding a datalink connection.

    An II sight of second generation would be a small fraction of the cost of one missile and yet would make the users of the system able to operate the missile in any conditions the missile could be effective. (note in very bad weather the seeker is as badly effected as the aiming optics so it doesn't matter if the optics can't see through steel...)

    This is exactly what bother me. VDV need air defense protection day and night, not only in daylight. Maybe this is just intermediate solution until they get a newer system based on BMD chassis. Data link is needed, because they work with battery CP, which have search radar, based on BMD-3 chassis. This CP will for sure be part of new VDV air defense system.

    Time will tell, maybe they will later build TI on those Strelas or a new system will come in VDV units.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:02 am

    Well thermal sights are not exactly cheap, but would be an even better match to the missiles used... if there is a monsoon and a TI can't see the target then there is no point in having a radar because the missiles wont see the target either to get a lock.

    With II sights of third gen or better then spotting aerial targets becomes easier.

    I suppose at the end of the day this is a replacement for Towed 23mm cannon so it is certainly an improvement in terms of mobility and anti aircraft reach and performance.

    As an interim solution I guess it would be OK if it is not night and all weather capable.

    I would assume the BMD based replacement will be armed with Morphei missiles... lock on after launch missiles with double the range of Strela (10km) and probably vertically launched and packed in launch boxes ready to fire. This improves on the four ready to launch plus four reloads arrangement on the Strela-10.

    If it is net centric then it wont need a lot of radars itself and might just have the equivelent of the EO pod on top of the roof of the Pantsir-S1 to acquire targets... relying on target queueing from the AD network.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:59 am

    The Russian Army had serious problems with UAVs in Georgia too... these very small targets have very small RCS and very small IR signatures and were hard to spot visually to engage with weapons like Igla or Zu-23 due to the height they operated at.



    Probably is better to clarify this point because it is often cited in comical western "analysis" of South Ossetia War - the same that, pointing at the forces involved in the conflict, cite correctly the Georgian troops active in the theatre and for the Russian side ....the number of operatives of the entire 58th Army and the whole 76th Airborne Division ! so to suggest DISHONESTLY that the quick victory by part of Russian Forces has been achieved through a crushing numerical superiority when ,in REALITY the situation was almost the OPPOSITE.-


    The cited instances where those Georgian UAV was outside the engagement zone of Russian Forces was those in areas where elements of AIRBORNE ASSAULT REGIMENTS (like the 104th and 234th) was conducting separated deep operations against Georgian bases and assets Laughing Laughing .

    Those regiments was equiped with some dozen of BMD-2 ,4 to 6 2S9 Nona-S and two ZU-23-2 on BTR-D chassis -for local air defense- each.

    Those Air Assault Regiments are not intended ,obviously, for area defense roles but to quickly cripple and paralize the most critical enemy installations with fulminating deep operations; moreover Russian ones are BY A VERY LONG MARGIN the MOST HEAVILY ARMED and MOBILE at world , similar regiments of ANY OTHER airborne division at world would been not only uncapable ,for the lack of any airborne air defense system, to force the enemy UAVs that would eventually detect one of the airborne squads at recede quickly or remain at maximum altitude (to remain outside the engagement range of the ZU-23-2 ) but also to complete theirs operations fast enough (thanks to the speed, protection and fire power offered by the airborne BMD-2 IFV and Nona-S artillery) to render even the fortuitous contact with one of those UAVs unfruitful from an operative stand point.


    The military operation in South Ossetia was conceived to achieve military subduing of enemy forces within 96 hours from beginning of the conflict, employing the lowest number of troops and systems among those already present in the proximity of the crisis area ,limiting a minimum the live and material losses, mantaining a very strict information denial discipline over NATO observers and analysts for any critical data that could had resulted from the employment of up-to-date systems and theirs CONOPS and .....at the lowest possible cost, through highly mobile combined-branch warfare to obtain ,in a VERY COMPRESSED TIME FRAME , decisive local force overmatch on the enemy or the rapid degradation of its military capabilities.


    Only THOSE elements in facts match with the necessary edges for conduct a Large Scale War against a powerful enemy with dozen of different critical contested areas of operation to be fought contemporaneously.

    NATO for the same operation against Georgia would have required :
    1) The usual four of five months ,minimum, of international embargo to achieve some effect on Georgian capabilities.
    2) Naval Forces to reach Black Sea .
    3) A following month or two of Air Campaign and cruise missile attacks from Navy units.
    4) An eventual ground operation to secure South Ossetian and Abkhatian borders.

    All of that using theirs most up to date weapon systems and tacticts (that national analysts very ,very much enjoy Laughing Laughing ) with costs some orders of magnitude higher Rolling Eyes and operational tempo immensely slower ; all those factors are totally incompatible with a successful large scale coventional conflict against a major enemy.


    Returning to the initial subject we can say only that Russian forces have even an excess of options to destroy trivial targets such as the tactical surveillance UAVs in question (the proof of that is that when Hermes-450s dared to venture in areas outside Georgian control them was downed almost instantly ,often way before even only closing the intended area Wink ).

    UAVs has been found by russian analysts very useful for prolonged surveillances of not defended or contested areas or to achieve positional data of the enemy speahead's elements for long range artillery , all at truly negligible costs and without comitting to the task and to the risks costly manned aircraft (like for the downed Tu-22R).

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    Post  medo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:20 pm

    True. As I know, Russian forces in South Ossetia was mainly equipped with Igla MANPADs and Tunguska, but I'm not sure if Tunguskas have missiles with them. The main problem was IFF for Igla, so this is the reason for receiving Baranul-T IADS, to integrate MANPADs in the system and give them night capabilities.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:49 pm


    Russian forces in South Ossetia was mainly equipped with Igla MANPADs and Tunguska


    Only three Tunguska (yes three systems not batteries Wink ) was present in the area of operation and Georgian aircraft in those 100-120 hours never dared to even come close the area possibly covered by those SHORAD (above all because being highly mobile theirs position and area of coverage cannot be computed before air action neither is possible to offer to pilots a safe flight pact to avoid them in the pre-mission briefing).



    The main problem was IFF for Igla, so this is the reason for receiving Baranul-T IADS, to integrate MANPADs in the system and give them night capabilities.

    Yes it is correct (even if several units with Igla have, since a very long time, night engagement capabilities), anyhow Russian forces Igla downed within less than 70 hours 4 Georgian aircraft -3 SU-25 and 1 SU-25MK-

    Moreover ,like i have highlighted previously, the "tempo" of the war was planned to render Air Force's impact on the operation totally non influential.




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    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:13 pm

    I was under the impression no Georgian Su-25s were shot down. They flew one mission, did nothing, then dispersed and hid the aircraft.
    Source - "Tanks of August".
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:26 am

    The primary Georgian UAV activity was before the conflict started to locate Russian and other forces in the break away regions.

    As you point out the primary Russian systems there before the conflict were largely VDV, which consisted mainly of older model SA-13s which had trouble getting a lock on the smaller UAVs due to their small IR signature and small optical signature, while the Zu-23 would be ideal for shooting down UAVs except it lacked the altitude capability necessary to engage them.

    In contrast even a single Pantsir-S1 vehicle would have easily been able to deal with the problem, and I suspect the upgraded SA-13s introduced to replace the ZU-23s in VDV units was to fix that problem... SA-13s are much more expensive than 23mm cannon shells, but also are effective over a much wider range and altitude envelope. Letting enemy targets get within the firing envelope of the ZU-23 would be very dangerous to what ever the ZU-23 is trying to protect.
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    Post  medo on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:31 am

    Actually in 2008 conflict VDV didn't have Sa-13 (Strela-10), they got them in 2010 as a mean time solution until new system is developed. In that time VDV have only ZU-23 and MANPADs.

    In that war Russian forces have quite weak AD support, mainly MANPADs and some Tunguskas and Shilkas. Qualitatively and quantitatively Georgia was far stronger, but this didn't help them.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:30 am

    You are quite right that the VDV didn't get SA-13s till 2010 when they introduced them to replace the ZU-23, but the Abkhazian forces had BUK and SA-13, and the SA-13 model they had had trouble getting a lock on UAVs because of their small IR signature and the high altitude they flew at (over 3,000m), while using BUK was just total over kill despite the fact that they could do it.

    Pantsir-S1 or TOR or indeed upgraded OSA would be a much better match for the job.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:40 pm

    TR1 wrote:I was under the impression no Georgian Su-25s were shot down. They flew one mission, did nothing, then dispersed and hid the aircraft.
    Source - "Tanks of August".


    Shocked Shocked

    That piece not represent a source for military actions of 2008 Conflict for any meaning of the word . Several assertions adn informations presented are simply factually wronged (for what concern Georgian SU-25s, the notion presented in "Tanks of August" is obviously totally out of line and likely the product of a "staged" account aimed at spread the notion that Georgian Air Force was out of the game just after the first hours of the military confrontation Wink


    In reality ,just to present the latter in temporal order, thelast action of Georgian Air Force SU-25s happened 11 August 2008 against a separated infantry detachment of 58th Army near village of Eredvi; in the event one of the attacking Gerogian Su-25s was downed by an 9K38 Igla MANPAD.


    http://interfax.ru/news.asp?id=26563

    http://www.newsru.com/world/11aug2008/sbilisu.html

    Exist even several video of the downing.


    But as previously explained majority of encounters with Georgian air vehicles (both surveillance UAV and armed aircraft) happened against the elements of Airborne Assault Regiments - such as the 104th and 234th -, the following ,at example is the account of the actions on the battlefield from the direct mouth of the operative Commander of 104th Airborne Gennady Anashkin (Hero of Russian Federation for the outstanding results achieved just in 2008 War)


    По уточненной задаче нам предстояло в качестве передового отряда пересечь границу и выйти в район Гори, закрепиться на рубеже северо-западнее города, у селения Вариани, где находился телецентр. У меня было две роты неполного состава, батарея четыре орудия "Нона" и три "бэтээра", на которых установили зенитки ЗУ-23. Практически вся наша мощь. Когда начали движение, над колонной начала работать авиация, зенитчики сделали несколько выстрелов из переносных комплексов, и в результате завалили грузинский самолет Су-25. Летчик катапультировался, его захватили в плен


    http://zavtra.ru/cgi/veil/data/zavtra/08/777/32.html


    Please TR1 ,leave "Tank of August" out of debates on 08/08/2008 conflict ,it is barely useful to provide a very shallow ....and staged....picture of the events for foreign media.

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    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:22 pm

    Russian Paratroopers Receive Newest Verba Shoulder-Fired Missiles

    MOSCOW, May 30 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Airborne Forces have started receiving the newest Verba man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS) equipped with an automated fire control system that has no foreign rival, military spokesman Yevgeny Meshkov said Friday.

    "The surface to air-missile regiment of the Ivankvsky Airborne Forces division is the first to have started receiving and studying the modern system of air defense battle," Meshkov said.

    The systems automatically provide information on the air environment, fix the target and command a strike against the target within several seconds. "This gives time to an AA sniper armed with the Verba MANPADS to prepare for the meeting and hit the target beforehand," he said.

    These systems exclude the human factor, while saving ammunition and increasing the effectiveness of air-defense sub-elements. "An automated control system over the battle allows finding an air target, defining its characteristics and sharing targets between AA snipers and fire means, taking into consideration their location," Meshkov said.

    A commander of the SAM regiment, Col. Andrei Musiyenko said modern air defense battles are highly mobile and dynamic confrontations with the usage of aerial warfare weapons, demanding modern armament and operational control.

    "Until now, the control over air defense battle in Airborne Forces divisions was not automated and the time elapsed following the major commander finding the target and ordering an AA sniper to launch the missile took from 3 to 5 minutes," he said.

    The process has become more than 10 times faster with the new systems.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:21 am

    Russian Airborne Troops received more than 30 modernized SAM "Strela-10MN"
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    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:39 am

    Verba MANPADS delivered to four airborne troops units

    Russian Army Airborne Units Receive New Portable Air Defense Systems

    Four of Russia's airborne troop units received the newest combat equipment supplied in bundles which included the Verba man-portable surface-to-air defense system with the Barnaul-T automatic control system, as well as a single learning and training set, according to a military official.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Four of Russia's airborne troop units have been supplied with the latest Verba man-portable air defense system (MANPADS) between 2014 and 2015, Head of the Russian Defense Ministry's Airborne Forces Informational Support Section Evgeniy Meshkov said Sunday.

    "The newest combat equipment was supplied in bundles which included the Verba man-portable surface-to-air defense system with the Barnaul-T automatic control system, as well as a single learning and training set," Meshkov said.

    The Russian army's airborne troops have also received computer packages for training and preparing MANPADS specialist operators, Meshkov added. New equipment has been supplied to the Novorossiysk, Ivanovo, Tula and Pskov airborne units, according to Meshkov.

    The Verba MANPADS is ten times more effective in overcoming pyrotechnical glitches that its Igla predecessor, while covering a range two and a half times greater.

    Russia is currently carrying out a 19-trillion ruble ($260-billion) rearmament program, announced in 2010, to achieve a 70-percent modernization of its military by 2020.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160110/1032900582/russian-airborn-troops-equipment.html#ixzz3wvmsCuvT

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