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    Questions Thread: Russian Navy

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:50 am

    This Alpha is related to the Granat that the Klub series are based on.

    Very simply Granat and Alpha are dead, Klub is the future and includes domestic granat and alpha equivalents.

    The UKSK vertical launch systems being introduced on Navy subs and ships carries Klub and Oniks/Yakhont/Brahmos, and Kh-101/102 type missiles.
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    Post  George1 Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:26 pm

    The Novator RK-55 Granat (Russian: РК-55 Гранат 'Garnet'; NATO:SSC-X-4 'Slingshot'; GRAU:3K10) was a Soviet land-based cruise missile with a nuclear warhead. It was about to enter service in 1987 when such weapons were banned under the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty. A version launched from submarine torpedo tubes, the S-10 Granat (SS-N-21 'Sampson';GRAU:3M10), has apparently been converted to carry conventional warheads and continues in service to this day.

    Is this cruise missile still in production for Russian attack nuclear submarines?
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:01 pm

    Granat is basically Klub/Club/Kalibr.

    Must ships and subs in the new Russian fleet will have UKSK launchers for various Klub and other missiles.
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    Post  George1 Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:05 pm

    What about the acula, sierra, victor SSNs? Are they armed with ss-n-21?
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    Post  TR1 Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:15 pm

    They used to carry them yes. If they do today is a separate question. Not sure if a conventionally armed variant was ever fielded, and Russian attack subs stopped carrying nuclear weapons in the early 90s, I think.
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    Post  George1 Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:29 pm

    i thought it was conventionally armed like US Tomahawk
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    Post  TR1 Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:33 pm

    It was nuclear from outset. Wikipedia makes conventional claims, but weather a conventional variant was actually fielded in the 90s or not, I don't know.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:32 am

    AFAIK the Klub series was the result of trying to make conventionally armed versions of the Granat, that led to anti ship models with both subsonic all the way and mixed subsonic and supersonic flight profiles.
    The addition of solid rocket propelled torpedo systems was an added bonus.

    Nuclear weapons were totally withdrawn from Russian Navy vessels, but I believe they are going to... if they haven't already, returning them to service as a counter to the significant difference in force levels of NATO, US, and Russian fleets.

    A sub with a few cruise missiles is much more of a threat to a carrier battle group if its anti ship missiles are nukes and of course the ability to deliver a cruise missile attack (conventional or nuke) makes their vessels much more flexible and capable.

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    Post  George1 Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:47 am

    Paket-E System is designed to hit enemy torpedoes or submarines?
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:33 am

    Torpedoes only.
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    Post  TR1 Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:21 am

    Paket-NK can target subs in close range.
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    Post  medo Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:49 am

    I would more like to ask about their replacement. Years ago there were plans for Katran and Scorpion missile boats,but now no news about them. I think at least one Scorpion boat was in building.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:59 am

    Well the introduction of the UKSK launcher means that instead of a small light missile boat you can have a slightly larger corvette that is significantly better armed.

    The main problem with the small missile boat is its vulnerability... it tended to have short range SAMs and limited radar performance and the equivalent fire power of a battleship with 4-8 anti ship missiles.

    It was a bit too fragile and a helo with a weapon like Sea Skua was a serious threat.

    A corvette on the other hand is a larger vessel with greater range, longer endurance, SIGMA C4IR systems, and even with one UKSK launcher you combine the two small missile boat and torpedo boat options together with the potential to carry up to 8 Onyx or Brahmos missiles, or 8 anti sub torpedos delivered up to 40km from the ship by a mach 1.5 rocket or a combination of them and also the subsonic and supersonic models of Klub and of course land attack missiles too.

    The larger corvette will also have the capacity for a much heavier SAM defence enabling it to protect itself from helos and aircraft to much longer ranges.

    The vertical launch tubes take up more internal space but are much more stealthy with no moving parts reducing maintainence requirements.

    I wonder if there are plans to add Kh-35s to the UKSK missile system. There was talk of adding SAM capacity, which would mean instead of separate UKSK and SAM launchers you could just have more UKSK launchers, but the problem is that the missiles used in the UKSK system are largely similar... very long relatively narrow missiles.

    I would guess that stacking missiles in modules might allow more efficient use of the space... for instance in the space you put one Yakhont missile you might be able to fit 6 small short range IIR guided missiles based on Morfei/9M100 in a module that takes the width a Yakhont missile takes up, but the huge length of the Yakhont you might be able to stack 3 modules in the space one Yakhont missile takes up.

    This would mean that there are three modules in the tube and for the first 6 targets the missiles are catapulted from the top module and when the top module is empty it is ejected making the next module ready to fire and once it is empty it is ejected and the last module is ready to fire. The ejection of the modules could be by rocket launching it up and then a side rocket launching it out into the sea, or the modules could be designed and aligned so that the lower modules use the upper tubes as barrels to launch the lower missiles through.

    This would make it simpler and safer with the modules removed and reloaded in port.

    Big modules being blown around the place creates a problem whereas the missiles in the lower modules can launch up through the tubes of the missiles above and push out the ejection mechanism of the missile above them ahead of them as they exit the tube. They could be made disposable... using compressed air or something.

    The result of course is that a Corvette with two UKSK launchers could have 8 Oniks missiles in one bin... which could potentially include hypersonic 1,000km range anti ship missiles and up to 144 short range lock on after launch IIR guided SAMs.
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    Post  TR1 Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:57 am

    medo wrote:I would more like to ask about their replacement. Years ago there were plans for Katran and Scorpion missile boats,but now no news about them. I think at least one Scorpion boat was in building.

    21631 methinks is excellent replacement.
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    Post  George1 Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:23 am

    GarryB wrote:
    I wonder if there are plans to add Kh-35s to the UKSK missile system. There was talk of adding SAM capacity, which would mean instead of separate UKSK and SAM launchers you could just have more UKSK launchers, but the problem is that the missiles used in the UKSK system are largely similar... very long relatively narrow missiles.


    I dont think that VLS is needed for fast attack missile boats. I think Project 1242.1/1241.8 'Molniya' further development of the Tarantul family boats can be a replacement with canisters for Uran-E.

    Concerning Project 21631 it has the double displacement of 21630. About 1000tons and speed about 25 knots. Tarantul has 45 knots.

    A fast attack craft (FAC) is a small, fast, agile and offensive warship armed with anti-ship missiles. FACs are usually operated in close proximity to land as they lack both the sea-keeping and all-round defensive capabilities to survive in blue water. Sizewise they are usually between 400 tonnes and can reach speeds of 35–50 knots.

    Corvettes will operate in greater proximity to land. And mainly they will have ASW role with Paket NK system and 91RE2 missiles in VLS (Project 20385)

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    Post  TR1 Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:05 am

    The speed won't be much of a loss when we consider that with UKSK they have weapons with far greater range + speed. Much more usefull than the carriers speed IMO.
    It is more of a "Nanuchka" replacement, I don't think we will see a direct Tarntul replacement.
    I am more concerned by the targeting means of the 21631s long range weaponry.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:47 am

    I would expect a move away from having large numbers of fast attack craft and a move to larger vessels.

    Certainly a few FACs each with 16 Kh-35s would be very capable vessels, but they are like eggs... very thin shells...

    A corvette would be more useful and the larger corvettes able to carry light helos or indeed rotary wing UAVs would be more useful than a FAC of old.
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    Post  medo Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:21 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    medo wrote:I would more like to ask about their replacement. Years ago there were plans for Katran and Scorpion missile boats,but now no news about them. I think at least one Scorpion boat was in building.

    21631 methinks is excellent replacement.

    Agree, Buyan-M could be good replacement, although it is with 74 m length a corvette and no more a boat. Maybe for other fleets it should be equipped with Palash/Palma system instead of Duet and Gibka SAM systems to be more effective in self defense and air defense.
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 01, 2012 9:23 am

    I dont think that VLS is needed for fast attack missile boats.

    I was thinking in terms of standardisation.

    They seem to be fitting every vessel they are making with UKSK launchers and that includes the Mistrals from corvettes up to carriers. I agree a FAC wont have the hull depth to have UKSK launchers and deck mounted clusters of 4 Kh-35s would be ideal... they are so compact they could fit 8 missiles for each Styx missile so even an old vessel can carry 16 missiles which in their latest version have a range of 240km which is formidible.

    What I was thinking was that the depth and width of the UKSK tubes you could probably fit two stacks of 3-4 missiles per tube, so instead of one Klub you could carry 6-8 Kh-35s ready to launch.

    It is about flexibility and of course usefulness. The Kh-35 becomes a much more useful weapon if suddenly every naval vessel in the fleet can carry a large number of them... especially if you make different versions of the Kh-35 like land attack models and IIR guided weapons with a lock on after launch capability and completely passive homing.
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    Post  johns624 Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:12 am

    My wife and I just got back from a Baltic cruise. While in St Petersburg, we took the hydrofoil back from Peterhof. When we entered the Neva River, I was surprised to see two frigates/corvettes docked on the north bank. I didn't have time to take any pictures. My Janes Warship Recognition Guide is from 2006 and nothing looks familier. The hull (pennant) numbers were 161 and 162. Can anyone help me out with classes/names?
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:42 am

    Did they have large anti ship missile tubes, or those round looking Anti-submarine rocket launchers?

    None of the larger new ships (20380 corvettes) have those numbers, so I am thinking it is a smaller ship.
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    Post  johns624 Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:56 am

    I didn't get a good look but they had a turreted cannon on the forecastle and what appeared to be a small twin automatic cannon on each side of the after superstructure. It was hard to tell since they were covered with tan tarps. They were bigger than the Russian Coast Guard cutter next to them.
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:09 am

    Ahh, that helps.

    Did they look like this? :
    http://www.scalespeed.com/Images/TarantulIII.jpg
    http://www.ausairpower.net/Tarantul-Corvette-DNSC9701565-1S.jpg

    I am having trouble finding any corvettes/missile/anti-submarine boats in the Baltic with those numbers on them.
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:13 am

    Come to think of it, you mentioned it was covered in tarp, maybe an export vessel under construction?
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:18 am

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-El4pix7ZCSQ/T5G7weF1iJI/AAAAAAAAEvs/BF2JanBd5rg/s1600/Koni.jpg

    Algerian boats like this one are under modernization @ Severnaya.

    EDIT:

    ALso a number of these were built for Vietnam, but I am not sure of the Hull numbers while in Russia:
    http://njanokuku.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/tarantul4-1.jpg

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