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    Russian-Made Crash Notification

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    Mike E
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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Mike E on Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:43 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    Mike E wrote:^ Nice rant...

    The Bear in its' role as a bomber has needed to be retired for some time now. However, IMO Russia should scrap those and maintain ELINT & Missile variants, while restarting Tu-160 production.
    The only Tu-95 version in service is the MS, and that's a missile carrier. No bomber or ELINT versions remain. And restarting the Tu-160 production will take years to achieve, if lack of funds don't kill it. So until 2025 or so there will be nothing that can replace the Tu-95...
    Really? I always thought Russia was flying the ELINT variant in regards to "pushing into" US airspace.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:16 am

    Vann7 wrote:Russia have more Accidents with military and planes that all other world nations combined..
    today ANOTHER..
    Fortunately you are wrong, and the number of accidents in the VVS is not alarming at all, it is quite normal for a force of its size and operating in an huge country with extreme climate conditions and few infrastructure in vast areas. Russia lost 7 military aircraft this year; the US 10 (counting not only USAF, but also USN and USMC); and India 11. What is worrying is the fact that 2 Tu-95 crashed almost one after another, specially considering that it used to be extremely reliable until now (almost no crashes in decades).
    Here is a good article (in Spanish, but I count that anyone knows how to use an online translator) of all lost military aircraft in the world this year up to July 1st:
    http://charly015.blogspot.com.ar/2015/07/accidentes-2015-primera-mitad-de-2015.html
    It includes two US UCAV, which I have excluded from my account above (I am counting only manned aircraft), apart from adding the most recent crashes to Russia and US after July 1st.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:24 am

    sepheronx wrote:Vann

    Russian aerospace industry isnt at fault for this, added in, Russian military is one of the top highest paying jobs now in Russia, especially on state controlled side of things.

    This has more to do with years of neglect of proper maintenance, mixed in with far more rapid training operations happening. These Tu-95's are old. Add in, if they had proper maintenance before, then I doubt they would be this problematic now.

    The areas to look at are both the training and the repair plants/maintenance facilities. New Russian jets rarely get these issues, besides the recent Su-34, and most modern Russian jets are of high quality. It boils down to who and where the maintenance is being performed. Maybe more money is needed, maybe they need to contract out repairs to a private company, maybe they need better training and new facilities.

    They're not that old. They were built in the 80s.

    They have to hold on for another 10-15 years or so; because that's how long it will take for the PAK-DA to start getting into service in numbers; the PAK-DA being a direct successfor to the Tu-95.

    Restarting production of the Tu-160 won't help that much as the Tu-160 is not a replacement for the Tu-95 but a complement to it. You can change the ratio to be more in favour of the Tu-160 by building new Tu-160s and retiring some of the oldest Tu-95s; but you can't change the ratio too much - these are fundamentally different aircraft, used in different ways, based in different parts of the country.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:02 am

    If there was no quality control in Russia then there were be no aircraft flying... you can't just throw together an Su-35 and expect it to work most of the time.

    I am pretty sure the sky is not falling... people see crashes as being related if they occur together, but the reality is that most often crashes are rarely regularly spaced... even when the causes are unrelated.

    The Bears currently in service are of a recent design... late 1970s and early 1980s and have the tu-142 design with a new wing and new engines... in comparison the B-52s were last produced in the early 1960s and are all ancient.

    It was very heroic of the pilot to try to land the aircraft... there have been plenty of cases of pilots losing control and ejecting or bailing out only for the aircraft to continue to fly a considerable distance before crashing... from memory there was even a MiG-23 that flew over most of Europe after the pilot abandoned ship... I seem to remember it actually killed someone in Belgium when it finally crashed after running out of fuel.


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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:17 pm

    AFAIK most of the crashed aircraft in RU air force had label ''Made in USSR''.

    This is basically wear and tear. Solution is simple: keep retiring old and keep buying new.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:01 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:Russia have more Accidents with military and planes that all other world nations combined..
    today ANOTHER..
    Fortunately you are wrong, and the number of accidents in the VVS is not alarming at all, it is quite normal for a force of its size and operating in an huge country with extreme climate conditions and few infrastructure in vast areas. Russia lost 7 military aircraft this year; the US 10 (counting not only USAF, but also USN and USMC); and India 11. What is worrying is the fact that 2 Tu-95 crashed almost one after another, specially considering that it used to be extremely reliable until now (almost no crashes in decades).
    Here is a good article (in Spanish, but I count that anyone knows how to use an online translator) of all lost military aircraft in the world this year up to July 1st:
    http://charly015.blogspot.com.ar/2015/07/accidentes-2015-primera-mitad-de-2015.html
    It includes two US UCAV, which I have excluded from my account above (I am counting only manned aircraft), apart from adding the most recent crashes to Russia and US after July 1st.



    Just this year..

    in just half a year.. 6 crashes... this is not normal.. this is ridiculous..


    Su-24 in Khabarovsk region 6th of July 2015
    MIG29 in Krasnodar region 3rd of July 2015
    MIG29 in Astrakhan region 4th of
    June 2015
    Su 34 in Voronezh region 4th of June 2015
    Tu-95 in Amur region 8th of June 2015

    and now this
    Tu 95 today....

    and the above list does not include helicopter crashes.. too..

    Please show me the American US Armed Forces plane crashes in 2015..   In Non Warzone ..  and compare that with the Russian accidents.. in Russia territory. and you will see
    a Huge Difference.. and this is not mentioning that Americans have a much larger airforce ,and fly more missions and have more planes than Russia in operations all the time.


    And then you have Russian Soldiers die all the time in training and practice in peace times.. or just sleeping in their barracks.. because their building collapse.. this things never happens in any other part of the civilized world.. Go mention any time Americans or any NATO soldiers died in US or Europe..in a non warzone.. because their building collapsed?  Thats ridiculous.

    I like Russian hardware.. as much as anyone who visit the forums.. but trying to defend incompetence is non sense. The Russia Government have a real serious issue with quality controls.. not only in their planes but in their defense industry. infrastructure.. and their Space industry too..    

    So my question is How many more planes needs to crash and pilots to die ,for the Russian
    Government to do something about it? This is not normal.. This is actually really terrible..

    The civilians industry.. Airports in US and Europe do thousands of times ,more travels in plane
    than Russia military does.. and you don't see any month a plane crash because of malfunction
    or an equipment.

    It should be scary to be a pilot in Russia today ,knowing you have a real possibility of having a fatal accident. for the poor quality controls.. of your country.  And i suspect this is connected with the incompetence and the Russian Government.. Russia could have the world best Scientist and Engineers.. But their Managers and leadership is truly incompetent.. and it can sink the whole morale of the RUssian armed forces ,if this crashes continues every month or every couple of week.



    What is worrying is the fact that 2 Tu-95 crashed almost one after another

    So even you admits ,it is scary.. because it is.. You can have the best planes in the world.. the most secure and safe.. but if you have really bad quality controls ,when they need repairs ,the technicians for leaving early their jobs will just not do things the way they should..and cut corners.. Quality controls is a problem of lack of Supervision ,lack of motivation employees to do right their job and Bad Management..

    What is really annoying about all this.. is that i see this ..Again.. and again and again.. and then again and again and again.. Poor management everywhere in RUssia.. as if Russia leadership was all incompetents and Putin have to do micromanage everything to get it right..  The whole Strike of Russian workers for not being paid at Vostochny Cosmodrome is just ANOTHER EXAMPLE of bad management in Russia.. So is as if the entire nation a big part of its management is mediocre at best or corrupt. And still have the bad habits of the Soviet Times
    that there was ... no motivation for anyone working for the government to do anything since they will be paid anyway .

    The next video ,while i don't agree with everything said by the journalist ,he shows exactly
    example of how it was under soviet union for workers under government controlled business.. People not caring for doing anything since they will be paid anyway. a quick example of how bad leadership and managing ,can directly affect a service to others.



    I really think ,there are still soviet style bad habits in today RUssia ,difficult to change.. that affect the services they do to others.. including security and safety in the defense industry and military. And perhaps could only be fixed with privatization of the defense industry ,where performance can affect the salaries of its employees or even lose their jobs. so there is
    a pressure on people to be more competitive and efficient..

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:50 am

    The next video ,while i don't agree with everything said by the journalist ,he shows exactly
    example of how it was under soviet union for workers under government controlled business.. People not caring for doing anything since they will be paid anyway. a quick example of how bad leadership and managing ,can directly affect a service to others.

    WTF... are you suggesting that Bears are crashing because in the 1970s and 1980s when they were made they were made by commies who didn't know how to make things?

    Is that a joke?

    Grow up Vann... are you 12 years old?

    A couple of planes have crashed... it happens... I have seen video footage of a B-52 crash... was it made in a communist country? Should all B-52s be withdrawn and scrapped?

    The US is the country that spends the most on military equipment yet it manages to keep those dinosaurs in service... maybe the reasons are nothing to do with cost and everything to do with their proven ability to do the job and not enough in service new things to replace them at the moment.

    The main difference is that Russia will likely get into service a sensible replacement well before the US.

    You seem to place a lot of emphasis on the regularity of crashes in Russia... that is what happens when you start flying more often... mistakes happen.

    If you think Russia can get Boeing to make aircraft for them and that will mean they will never crash because Boeing is in a democracy where workers care about their products and don't just turn up for work each day to make sure they keep getting paid then you are wrong. the only planes that can't crash are the ones in museums that never fly. Which are totally useless for any air force.


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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  jhelb on Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:If you think Russia can get Boeing to make aircraft for them and that will mean they will never crash because Boeing is in a democracy where workers care about their products and don't just turn up for work each day to make sure they keep getting paid then you are wrong. the only planes that can't crash are the ones in museums that never fly.  Which are totally useless for any air force.

    A majority of air crashes actually involve aircraft manufactured by Boeing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Boeing_747

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Teshub on Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:38 pm

    Vann7 wrote:in just half a year.. 6 crashes... this is not normal.. this is ridiculous..
    An explaination of what additional factors cause crashes, especially intensive training. http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2015/06/04/why_the_indian_air_force_has_a_high_crash_rate_43501.html

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Mak Sime on Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:11 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    Purely RI-DI-CU-LOUS.

    And purely ANA-CHRO-NIC.

    Keep this crap out of me.

    Please, do not remind how the 80's were mentally dangerous. I was mentally fucked by the 80's :archives:

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:15 pm

    Quality controls in Russia are the main issue here.. they dont exist.. Not long ago a Ka-52
    a brand new helicopter also crashed.. this is beyond ridiculous.

    Well Duh... the Ka-52 is a relatively new design... of course there are going to be problems... the F-22 has had crashes too... and so has the B-2...



    Quality controls a problem much?

    Hint... if it was quality controls or pissed off underpaid workers then for sure more than one helo would have crashed.


    Putin is not a bad president.. but i neither think he is a visionary.. He is more reactionary president..

    Of course he is a reactionary president... the US and west hates Russia... and Russia does not hate the US or the West. Of course he is not going to lead the charge and aggressively sabotage relations with the west or the US, but equally he can't stand by while they try to do the same to Russia... hense he reacts rather than provokes...

    The Bear in its' role as a bomber has needed to be retired for some time now.

    The Bear in its current operational versions has never been a bomber... it is a cruise missile carrier, and a maritime recon/carrier killer. It has also been an airliner and an AWACS aircraft and a bomber... but no more.\

    new upgrades will allow it to carry guided air to ground conventional munitions but for the most part they will likely be weapons like the Kh-555 conventional land attack cruise missile and of course the conventional Kh-102 or 101... can't remember which of the top of my head.

    A Bear releasing a conventional armed cruise missile 4,500km from the enemies air defence forces should be pretty safe... even in the 21st C.

    The only Tu-95 version in service is the MS, and that's a missile carrier. No bomber or ELINT versions remain. And restarting the Tu-160 production will take years to achieve, if lack of funds don't kill it. So until 2025 or so there will be nothing that can replace the Tu-95...

    Technically there are no Tu-95s in service... they are all Tu-142 designs.

    there are cruise missile carriers... Tu-95MS16 (only called Tu-95 for the purposes of strategic arms treaties) and Tu-142.

    Really? I always thought Russia was flying the ELINT variant in regards to "pushing into" US airspace.

    Most of the "bombers" photographed flying near US and western ships are Tu-142s.

    Just this year..

    in just half a year.. 6 crashes... this is not normal.. this is ridiculous..

    Are you suggesting they should be more evenly spaced out over time?

    that would certainly make for a better mathematical model, but has nothing to do with the real world... shit happens... get over it. If they were all shot down or all had the same fault with the same piece of equipment then you might have a point... you don't.

    But their Managers and leadership is truly incompetent.. and it can sink the whole morale of the RUssian armed forces ,if this crashes continues every month or every couple of week.

    Come on... you know you want to blame putin... surely it is fault for this conspirasy.

    The next video ,while i don't agree with everything said by the journalist ,he shows exactly
    example of how it was under soviet union for workers under government controlled business.. People not caring for doing anything since they will be paid anyway. a quick example of how bad leadership and managing ,can directly affect a service to others.

    Yes, because if anyone understands Russia it is Fox news... how about a quote from Goebbels about the asian character of Russians that makes them less intelligent than white europeans, or perhaps we could blame general winter for the problems?

    How about this page:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_military_aircraft_%282010%E2%80%93present%29

    If we go to 2015 and have a look we see:

    January
    20 January 2015 – An UH-60A Black Hawk, So US 1.

    22 February 2015 – An USMC F/A-18D US 2.

    10 March 2015 – Sikorsky UH-60 US 3.

    12 May 2015 – A U.S. Navy F/A-18F Super Hornet US 4

    12 May 2015 – A U.S. Marine Corps Bell UH-1Y "Venom" Huey, US 5... their newest model Cobra..

    17 May 2015 – MV-22B Osprey US 6.

    22 May 2015 – T-45C Goshawk US 7

    7 July 2015 – A Shaw AFB-based F-16C Block 50 Fighting Falcon US 8

    14 July 2015 – A Tupolev Tu-95MS US 8 Russia 1.


    Yeah... you are right... Russia has a problem... Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Mak Sime on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:Yeah... you are right... Russia has a problem...   Rolling Eyes
    Indeed, they're russian...

    Wink

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:10 pm

    If in doubt, blame russia....

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:12 am

    Crash landing in Chelyabinsk

    An Antonov An-12 military transport plane has made an emergency landing at the Urals airport of Chelyabinsk after the failure of three engines, a source told TASS on Friday.

    “The crew of the An-12 plane en route from Omsk to Moscow has decided to make an emergency landing at the airport of Chelyabinsk after the failure of three out of four engines,” the source said.

    “The plane landed safely. No one of the seven crew and seven passengers was injured,” the source added.

    Officials at the Central Military District have given no comments on this report.


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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:19 am

    The failure of 3 engines out of 4.

    What are the chances?

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:48 am

    flamming_python wrote:The failure of 3 engines out of 4.

    What are the chances?
    Just wild speculation on my part, but what are the changes someone is sabotaging aviation fuel for the VVS? Not that hard I guess, considering the long chain from refinery to bases. And the last Tu-95 crash was also due to all engines failing in flight.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Teshub on Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:50 am

    flamming_python wrote:The failure of 3 engines out of 4.

    What are the chances?
    once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is sabotage...

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Firebird on Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:59 am

    Just a guess. Someone is skimming off some of the fuel somewhere. And replacing the missing %age with some sort of shit?

    Or a fault in the purification process?
    Either way, heads should roll.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  par far on Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:07 pm

    Teshub wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:The failure of 3 engines out of 4.

    What are the chances?
    once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is sabotage...


    With all the recent crashes, there has to be some kind of sabotage. Maybe someone wants to hurt Russian pilots or maybe someone wants to hurt Russian military exports.


    Last edited by par far on Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  par far on Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:09 pm

    Firebird wrote:Just a guess. Someone is skimming off some of the fuel somewhere. And replacing the missing %age with some sort of shit?

    Or a fault in the purification process?
    Either way, heads should roll.


    I read somwhere(I think it was Tass, I don't remember correctly) that someone was stealing fuel from Russian fuel deposits.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:28 pm

    Russian rafineries produce all fuels according to high quality Euro standards as they also export it to EU. RuAF buy the same fuel as all others. There is no other option than sabotages, so the RuAF, GRU and FSB will have to find those saboters and to check all fuel they have and to check quality of fuel of any truck before it is pumped in the plane.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Giulio on Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:50 pm

    flamming_python wrote:The failure of 3 engines out of 4.

    What are the chances?

    More than someone could think. For example on august 6 2005 an ATR-72 crashed in the waters in the Tyrrhenian sea first because the ground crew mounted on board a fuel system of the ATR-42, in this way the system read a fuel amount very much larger than the real. The aircraft did not receive the full amount of fuel and ended in the sea waters. In addition, the pilots, maybe because of the emotional stress of the situation, not properly applied the requirements of the ATR-72 manual. So, they sank at sea. 16 dead.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuninter_Flight_1153

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:02 am

    Giulio wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:The failure of 3 engines out of 4.

    What are the chances?

    More than someone could think. For example on august 6 2005 an ATR-72 crashed in the waters in the Tyrrhenian sea first because the ground crew mounted on board a fuel system of the ATR-42, in this way the system read a fuel amount very much larger than the real. The aircraft did not receive the full amount of fuel and ended in the sea waters. In addition, the pilots, maybe because of the emotional stress of the situation, not properly applied the requirements of the ATR-72 manual. So, they sank at sea. 16 dead.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuninter_Flight_1153
    OK, but what are the chances that both a Tu-95MS and an An-12, which are very different aircraft with completely different systems, in a very short time frame, have failure in 3 or 4 of their engines simultaneously? I really think it is impossible, it is extremely unlikely that these crashes are due to technical reasons.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  Giulio on Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:10 am

    I think no correlation between the two things.

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    Re: Russian-Made Crash Notification

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:57 am

    I think waiting for the reports on the incidents would be rather more prudent than having a little witch hunt McCarthy style...

    I don't know enough about the design of these aircraft to make a sensible comment regarding what the issues might be, but fuel line failures generally make engines stop... faulty software could do the same multi engine aircraft are not immune to crashing...

    The proper investigations need to be made and their conclusions examined.


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