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    Brazil F-X Project competition:

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    Mindstorm

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:50 am

    russianumber1 wrote:  Share

    According to Saab, Gripen NG wins Su-35 simulations in the ratio of 6:1




    Oh  my   god.......Rolling Eyes 

    Scientific education is literally crumbling in Europe ; where this six to one ratio come from ?


    This is the original statement by Peter Nilsson:


    Saab's simulations saw the MBDA Meteor- and Diehl BGT Defence IRIS-T missile-equipped Gripen NG defeat the Su-35 at a ratio of 1:6 to 1.  .
    For JSF it's the other way round
    ".

    Among the few informations available on this simulation this is appear important in appraising its reliability of OPFOR representation ( same simulation but against F-35A) :


    "..... eight Raytheon AIM-120D Amraam missiles and eight AIM-9X Sidewinders against48 Vympel R-77s and eight R-73s, he comments: "They'd better be invincible. Because if you can't get past the 'Flankers' you'll never get to a ground target."  


    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/gripen-revives-war-of-words-over-norwegian-fighter-assessment-327317/


    Practically them have put, in 2008, FUTURE F-35s armed with AIM-120Ds and AIM-9x and FUTURE Gripen-NG armed with MDA Meteor and IRIS-Ts against PAST SU-35-BM armed with R-77 and R-73 (or very very likely RVV-AE  and R-73E) with not evident employment of any specialized wing-tip self-defense/cooperative/cross jamming pods (not even the pasted "Хибины" pod that was revealed, with its export version, after the execution this simulation and even less the much more advanced "Хибины-У" that will defend domestic Su-35S in the years of introduction of F-35s and Gripen-NG) .....for the simple reason that F-35 cannot mount any pod ,retaining low observability, and Gripen-NG can mount only wing-tip ones with much low radiated power for unescpable weight ,volumetric and aerodynamics reasons.

    In spite of all those ridiculously biased and totally "unreal" assumptions not taking into account obviously the enormous aerodynamic and control improvements and the immense enhancements offered by the "new" avionic suit implemented in the domestic Su-35S (both totally unknown at the time of the simulation) , in that SAAB's simulation the future Gripen-NG armed with Meteor obtain only a so small positive exchange ratio against past SU-35 with R-77 and R-73 while F-35 obtain a similar exchange ratio but negative  !

    If any it is a clear testament of the very quick obsolescence of similar aircraft against one of theirs intended reference's threat.

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    Sujoy

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:25 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Oh  my   god.......Rolling Eyes 

    Scientific education is literally crumbling in Europe ; where this six to one ratio come from ?

    Mindstorm , how else do you think NickM got a job Smile Smile

    russianumber1

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  russianumber1 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:35 pm

    well this proves that are capable of manipulating information to prove something that is not real thanks for the answer))))

    etaepsilonk

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:35 pm

    Mindstorm wrote: employment of any specialized wing-tip self-defense/cooperative/cross jamming pods (not even the pasted "Хибины" pod that was revealed, with its export version, after the execution this simulation and even less the much more advanced "Хибины-У" that will defend domestic Su-35S in the years of introduction of F-35s and Gripen-NG)


    I have a question. Are jamming pods you mentioned really "Хибины" and not Sorbitsya?
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    TR1

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:42 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote: employment of any specialized wing-tip self-defense/cooperative/cross jamming pods (not even the pasted "Хибины" pod that was revealed, with its export version, after the execution this simulation and even less the much more advanced "Хибины-У" that will defend domestic Su-35S in the years of introduction of F-35s and Gripen-NG)


    I have a question. Are jamming pods you mentioned really "Хибины" and not Sorbitsya?

    Of course, Sorbitsya is very old.

    Both Su-34 and Su-35 have moved on.

    etaepsilonk

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote: employment of any specialized wing-tip self-defense/cooperative/cross jamming pods (not even the pasted "Хибины" pod that was revealed, with its export version, after the execution this simulation and even less the much more advanced "Хибины-У" that will defend domestic Su-35S in the years of introduction of F-35s and Gripen-NG)


    I have a question. Are jamming pods you mentioned really "Хибины" and not Sorbitsya?

    Of course, Sorbitsya is very old.

    Both Su-34 and Su-35 have moved on.

    Oh, I see, sorry for my ignorance. I was just thinking, that Khibiny is a sort of unification of many systems, including advanced RWRs.

    Is there, by any chance, more information about it?  

    Griffin

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    Muhhaahhaaaahhaaa

    Post  Griffin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:39 pm

    russianumber1 wrote:I saw a forum in Brazil in which a simulation between the two 6-1 for gripen I found absurd but I want to hear from you qul is superior and leading enconta because all data, electronics, radar capability, integrated systems ...

    go head bomb us. no one is afraid of nation drunken men without education...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:22 am

    go head bomb us. no one is afraid of nation drunken men without education...

    Of course the irony there is that the US is rather more likely to be the country bombing anyone by more than 6 to 1.

    If Brazil wants to buy Gripens they can buy Gripens... it is totally their decision and Russia will not have a problem with that decision. Try to tell lies and suggest it is proven that the Gripen is better than the Su-35 and of course they will tell you that you are wrong... but they still wont bomb you.

    Of course buying Gripen is OK for the next 10 years... but what then? F-35?

    At least with the Flanker there is a growth path into 5th gen stealthy aircraft that share some of the avionics with the Su-35, but again, if Brazil wants Gripen then let them buy Gripens.

    If they wanted Su-35s there is already a queue and they would have to wait anyway.

    BTW nation of drunken uneducated men... good choice for a first post... I guess Brazil must be a country of beautiful women and rude men with no manners.


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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:22 am

    In my own Simulation.. Su-35S far surpassed Gripen in combat range :3



    Having higher thrust to weight ratio.



    While having only slightly higher wing loading than Gripen




    So i can say at least Su-35S can do as good as Gripen and just have enough fuel to play cat and mouse and still RTB without need to worry about Bingo.

    and yes my "simulation" Can be downloaded free of charge..Though it might not be user friendly for now :3

    mediafire.com view/yakbbbnb018gb2b/Cruise_range_and_radiusEXP.xlsx

    Hmm so basically i make myself "Mission Analysis" spreadsheets. Data inside is the best i could get.. Would be nice to hear some input or better data though.
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    Sandrorenan

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    BRAZIL

    Post  Sandrorenan on Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:12 pm

    Comrades, I am Brazilian and I think this information is untrue, because I think the SU-35 good or as good as the Gripen NG. I as a patriot, I would like my government had adiquirido Russian fighters, because I know Russian air superiority daa. Please help them to adiquirir their fighters. Go on social networks. After all, you do not want to earn more money?We pay.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:55 pm

    The fact of the matter is that the choice of primary fighter aircraft is far more political than it is military or even economic.

    Look at all the countries wanting to buy F-35s despite the enormous cost... even when they likely wont even need anything more than what they already have.

    The Gripen would not be a bad fighter and would "buy" friendship points from Europe... to be honest I would start by going to the military and asking them what features and capabilities they actually really need, and what features they want from a new aircraft.

    From that basis you can look around at the aircraft actually available and then make a reasonable decision.

    Because of the political dimension you would need to take into account political relationships too... can you produce parts domestically for instance?

    Will other countries in the region like to piggyback orders to reduce costs so instead of buying say 100 Su-35s, you might find buying 200 Su-30MKI like fighters works out much cheaper and if you buy Su-30MKIs instead of Su-35s that other countries in the region might buy a few with you and Sukhoi might let you manufacture both your aircraft plus also say 40 for Argentina, and another 30 for Peru and say another 30 for Chile so instead of buying 100 Su-35s you can co-produce 300 Su-30MKIs for Brazil and Argentina and Peru and Chile and all three countries get those planes even cheaper... plus have a production plant in Brazil for overhauls and upgrades and maintainence.

    You might even get an order for another 200 from Mexico... plus 20 for Nicaragua etc etc Smile

    they might sell like hotcakes... with the local support network Brazil provides.

    And more importantly relations with the Ukraine have soured for Russia... there are a few light plane designs from Antonov that are no longer likely to be of interest to Russia... Brazil makes some very good light planes... opportunity...


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    runaway

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  runaway on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:41 pm

    Combat between Gripen-NG and SU-35 isnt all about hardware, its also pilot skill and most important is tactics. Who has AEW, backup from AA missile batteries and EW warfare, and a good engagement plan.

    MiG-21 had a devastating good tactic when in hands of Vietnamese against US F4 Phantom. Although F4 is twice as big and better range, missiles and electronics, when Mig-21´s ambushed them by diving in at mach 2 from behind and shoot missiles and turn back, it didnt matter.

    Also MiG-21 against Israel F4 and Mirage, then it was very much up to tactics and pilot training. I knew a russian "military advisor" who flew succesful missions against Israel in -73.

    The big advantage SU-35 has over Gripen-NG is that parts and weapons will not be subjects to US sanctions and politics. Reason why Venezuela bought SU-30´s was their F16 was grounded due to US didnt sell repair kits no more.





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    George1

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:26 pm

    CORRECTED-Brazil may wait over four years for new fighters, says Saab

    Dec 20 (Reuters) - Brazil is not likely to receive the first of its new fighter jets from Saab AB for more than four years, the head of the Swedish company's aerospace unit told Reuters on Friday, underscoring the need for stopgap aircraft in coming years.

    Brazil's Gripen NG should arrive after Sweden takes the first deliveries of the next-generation aircraft in early 2018, said Lennart Sindahl in a telephone interview.

    "Everyone expects the national air force to take the first deliveries, before we start exporting," he said.

    That will leave the Brazilian air force waiting to replenish an old, shrinking fleet. Military officials said on Wednesday they expected to sign a $4.5 billion final contract for the 36 new jets within a year, with the first deliveries arriving four years after that.

    While Brazil waits, the country is negotiating with Sweden to lease existing Gripen C/D, Sindahl said, in order to offset the loss of a dozen Mirage fighters at the end of this year.

    The Swedish air force is flying 98 Gripens, according to Saab's website, and has ordered the upgrade of 60 Gripen C to the next-generation model, with deliveries beginning in 2018.

    The Swiss armed forces have also ordered 22 of the newest Gripens, pending a national referendum next year. (Reporting by Brad Haynes; Editing by Jonathan Oatis)
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    Kyo

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Kyo on Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:24 pm


    Vann7

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:17 am

    Kyo wrote:Meanwhile, Argentina's ally Brazil is just falling short of being labelled a 'banana republic' with its Gripen, Harpoons, P-3 Orions and stuff. Instead of incorporating Su-35s in its recent fighter tender, which would enable Brazil a South Atlantic predominance over UKs Eurofighters, it settled on one-engined (US-made) Gripen NG to be delivered from 2019 on. All this slant over US hardware is a consequence of the Brazilian militaries' fear of threats towards EMBRAER's aerospace industry (which is also American but located in Brazil, btw) as retaliation if it opted for advanced Russian Su-35s and KH-31 anti-ship missiles.

    I don't understand why brazil will pick the Gripen Saab over the Su-35 when prices are about the same..
    but the Su-35 way more advanced ...any ideas?
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    TR1

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:19 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Kyo wrote:Meanwhile, Argentina's ally Brazil is just falling short of being labelled a 'banana republic' with its Gripen, Harpoons, P-3 Orions and stuff. Instead of incorporating Su-35s in its recent fighter tender, which would enable Brazil a South Atlantic predominance over UKs Eurofighters, it settled on one-engined (US-made) Gripen NG to be delivered from 2019 on. All this slant over US hardware is a consequence of the Brazilian militaries' fear of threats towards EMBRAER's aerospace industry (which is also American but located in Brazil, btw) as retaliation if it opted for advanced Russian Su-35s and KH-31 anti-ship missiles.

    I don't understand why brazil will pick the Gripen Saab over the Su-35 when prices are about the same..
    but the Su-35 way more advanced ...any ideas?

    The cost of service and use is far higher for the Su-35, for the obvious reasons.


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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:14 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Kyo wrote:Meanwhile, Argentina's ally Brazil is just falling short of being labelled a 'banana republic' with its Gripen, Harpoons, P-3 Orions and stuff. Instead of incorporating Su-35s in its recent fighter tender, which would enable Brazil a South Atlantic predominance over UKs Eurofighters, it settled on one-engined (US-made) Gripen NG to be delivered from 2019 on. All this slant over US hardware is a consequence of the Brazilian militaries' fear of threats towards EMBRAER's aerospace industry (which is also American but located in Brazil, btw) as retaliation if it opted for advanced Russian Su-35s and KH-31 anti-ship missiles.

    I don't understand why brazil will pick the Gripen Saab over the Su-35 when prices are about the same..
    but the Su-35 way more advanced ...any ideas?

    The cost of service and use is far higher for the Su-35, for the obvious reasons.



    For all the different parties involved in the creation of the Gripen, it has all the potential to be a logistics nightmare. Just check out this infographic:



    Not all the parts and components are from Sweden, you have America, Britain, Canada, Germany, and France...all NATO members. Now you may ask what's the significance of this? Well, Britain for example (and by default America) hasn't had any good relations with Argentina in a very long time. All it would take would be just 1 or 2 public incidence, some Anglo-media hyperventilation, some public outcry...and you have the potenial to 'justify' an arms embargo against Argentina, thus cutting the long-term value of their Gripens by a significant margin with the lack of parts and spares. Personally a mix of used but good condition Su-24's and some Mig-29SMT's may be their best option.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:49 am

    That is certainly a reason for Argentina to not consider the Gripen, but for Brazil I would think buying it would give the US too many strings to pull if BRICSA becomes successful.

    Look at what the US did to Venezuela with their F-16s... just because the government turned on their 1% and started doing things for the 99% the US treated them like dirt.


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    Werewolf

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:01 am

    Should be quite obvious after 2014 not buy a single crap from NATO occupied countries anything that can be sanctioned, because we already know US loves sanctions and this is not an assumption but hard fact, the US will sanction brazil and any other country, the question is when and how stupid will this country be to actually manuever itself in that corner?
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:40 am

    GarryB wrote:That is certainly a reason for Argentina to not consider the Gripen, but for Brazil I would think buying it would give the US too many strings to pull if BRICSA becomes successful.

    Look at what the US did to Venezuela with their F-16s... just because the government turned on their 1% and started doing things for the 99% the US treated them like dirt.

    On paper the Gripen looks like an excellent aircraft, which has far better cost-per-flight hour ratio over many other Western aircraft as shown in this infographic:



    ...But once you get down to the nitty-gritty, the more military tech-savy people will realize the potential logistic-nightmare risk the Gripen is burdened with.
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    Kyo

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    Βrazil's Gripen

    Post  Kyo on Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:08 am

    Vann7 wrote: I don't understand why brazil will pick the Gripen Saab over the Su-35 when prices are about the same..
    but the Su-35 way more advanced ...any ideas?

    It all goes back to 2008, when the then Defense Minister (a well known 5th column within the Brazilian Government), Nelson Azevedo Jobim, barred the Su-35 from the FX-2 fighter tender (much to the surprise of experts) in favour of the Rafale option. This siding with Dassault was due to the fact that Jobim saw France as a "neutral" country in the confrontation between US and Russia (wheras it joined Nato in 2009). A second element was that Brazil was eying the construction of nuclear attack subs with TOT and Jobim wanted the Scorpene as a basis for this deal, so Rafale and Scorpene would be joined in one single agreement with the French.

    As is well-known now, in July 2014, under a new Government, a MoU was signed between Embraer (Brazilian Militaries' darling) and Saab and the Gripen was chosen. France (now in NATO) got the deal with the subs. And thus Brazil became an additional banana republiquette in this sadly history of Latin America.
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    Kyo

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Kyo on Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:41 am

    According to Brazilian newspaper Folha de São Paulo, Federal prosecutors opened on Thursday, April 9th an inquiry into the purchase of 36 Swedish fighters , model Gripen NG by the Brazilian government.
    The contract , signed last October, was closed for $ 5.4 billion . The value is $ 900 million in excess than in the current proposal of the manufacturer made in 2013.
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    George1

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:41 am



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    Kyo

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Kyo on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:32 pm

    Brazil in search of agreement for the purchase of Gripen fighter jets.

    Brazilian daily Folha de São Paulo reports that Sweden agrees to lower the interest rate on the financing contract for the sale of 36 Gripen fighter jets for the Brazilian Air Force, provided that Brazil agrees to pay part of the loss with the exchange rates. The deal can be agreed this Wednesday (July 29, 2015), when a delegation of the Swedish agency for the promotion and development of exports, the SEK, should leave Brazil.

    Brazil chose the Gripen to re-equip FAB at the end of 2013 and, in 2014, signed a contract that at the time stood at US$ 5.4 billion. The problem is that payment to SEK should had been dealt with and approved by the Senate until mid 2015. A deadline extension was requested because Brazil wished to reduce the agreed interest rate of 2.54% to 2.19% per annum.

    http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2015/07/1661656-brasil-busca-acordo-para-compra-de-cacas.shtml
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    Militarov

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    Re: Brazil F-X Project competition:

    Post  Militarov on Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:44 pm


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