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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

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    medo

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:06 pm

    Agree. In any way R-73 have longer range and heavier warhead than any MANPAD.

    I wonder what are caracteristics of serial Arbalet radar for standard Ka-52. In air to air mode with R-73 AAMs it will still be quite potent helicopter killer. More interesting are Arbalet terrain following and ground attack capabilities. Maybe it have capabilities to use radio guided ATGMs and radar guided ATGMs like Krizanthema, but I think radar will give longer range and all weather capabilities for using Hermes ATGMs comparing to EO system.

    On the other hand I wonder what capabilities and weapon options will Zhuk AESA radar give to Ka-52, but it will for sure be more capable than Arbalet in range and in different modes of working.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:58 am

    The main difference of course is that the AESA they are talking about will be like a fighter radar and just give a view from the nose of the aircraft, while Arbalet is a 360 degree system that serves to detect incoming threats from any direction.

    An AESA would be good for an attack aircraft, but I think for an attack helo the Arbalet will be better in many regards.

    Certainly with modern computer hardware and X band AESA should offer all sorts of ground mapping and targeting options though I would expect an AESA radar would be more use for a Naval helo at sea than on land where the Arbalet system would be better overall.

    At some time a fixed scanning array for Arbalet would be a good thing too.
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    medo

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:21 pm

    I don't know if air force Ka-52 have Arbalet radar on top of main rotor head, but for sure have radar in nose radom. Radar in nose radom could not cover 360°, because it could nor rotate radar antenna 360°. But even multifunctional radar looking in front of helicopter is a big improvement against other helicopters. For self defense ESM sensors cover 360° and could see any treat. than helicopter just turn against treat and work with radar and EO sensors against it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:35 am

    The radar system for Kamov Ka-50 based attack helos have a split system with the MMW radar in the nose and the CM Wave radar in a mast mounted arrangement.

    The current configuration of the Mi-28N is both systems in a mast mounted ball, but for Kamov I have never seen them use that arrangement.

    Perhaps they have discarded the air search component of the system, which would be disappointing as it could reportedly detect Stinger size targets at 6km which is pretty impressive if you think about the size of a stinger missile end on heading towards you from that distance.

    Perhaps their optical sensors of their self defence suite have achieved similar levels of performance and made the air search radar redundant?
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    medo

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:09 pm

    I think Ka-52 was from the beginning designed to use radar in nose radom. I wonder if coaxial rotor could support mast mounted radar as rotor in Mi-28N.

    It seems Ka-52 for operational units are equipped with Arbalet radar, while the first helicopters are not. There wasn't any photos of first operational Ka-52, so we still don't know if those helicopters get DIRCM balls to complete its ESM suit.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:07 am

    I have seen a few Ka-52s fitted with circular positions near the main undercarriage where the DIRCM turrets go, so I would say they will all be fitted for the system and perhaps when it is ready they will likely install them on them all.

    I remember early on they had a mockup ball mounted above the coaxial rotors of the Ka-52 for the 360 degree CM wave air search radar, but with all the changing of EO systems with balls on the roof and balls in the nose and under the nose and all sorts of places it seems they haven't decided on what setup they want.

    I rather expect the President system will offer the 360 degree coverage and threat detection that a mast mounted radar could offer and that perhaps such a system might make a mast mounted radar a little redundant (and it wouldn't be cheap either).

    Will be interesting to see their final arrangement for the Kamov and the Mil.

    I also very much like the two seat attack version of the ANSAT.

    Blue Thunder II TV series in Russia?
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:44 am

    medo wrote:http://www.militaryparitet.com/perevodnie/data/ic_perevodnie/1675/

    Naval version of Ka-52 will be equipped with modified Zhuk-AE AESA radar from Fazotron-MIIP, originally for Mig-35, which will enable Ka-52 to use Kh-31 and Kh-35 anti-ship missiles. First prototype radar will be build in 2012.

    Fazotron-NIIP also deliver mechanically scanned radars Arbalet to Progress plant to install in standard Ka-52 and first 4 Ka-52 were delivered in May this year.

    In my opinion if naval Ka-52 could use Kh-31 anti-ship missile, than could also use Kh-31 anti-radar missile. Maybe Zhuk AESA radar could be used in air to air mode and I wouldn't be surprised if it will carry R-77 AAM.

    There are some that are questioning the ability of the Ka-52 to fire a Kh-31. Apparently the relatively low speed of a helicopter is not suited for a Kh-31 launch. The air-launched version of the Kh-35 might be feasible though and the early Ka-52 demonstrator was shown with R-73 A-A missiles.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:43 am

    There are some that are questioning the ability of the Ka-52 to fire a Kh-31. Apparently the relatively low speed of a helicopter is not suited for a Kh-31 launch. The air-launched version of the Kh-35 might be feasible though and the early Ka-52 demonstrator was shown with R-73 A-A missiles.

    I have read of the same concerns regarding the Su-25TM using the weapon, but there is a solid rocket booster that can be fitted to the Kh-31 to allow "slow" launches...


    Here it is:





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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:but there is a solid rocket booster that can be fitted to the Kh-31 to allow "slow" launches...

    Interesting....and thanks for the pics.

    Personally, I still think the Kh-31 would be overkill for a helicopter.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:26 pm

    For most helos I would agree, but for a naval attack helo being able to fire a Kh-31AD with an anti ship range of 150km or so, followed almost immediately by a Kh-31PD anti radiation missile if the ship spots the helo means even with the highest speed naval SAM the helo will have time to drop below the radar horizon and try to get some distance between itself and its launch position... leading to a decent chance of a hit and a reasonable chance of escape.

    For most targets such weapons are overkill, but for some the Kh-31AD is like a mini Brahmos.

    Certainly a Ka-29 troop carrying helo could probably do with a smaller and lighter ARM like the Kh-25 type ARMs and their range of 40km would still be rather useful... but I suspect a normal load would remain 8 Shturm/Ataka and two 20 shot 80mm rocket pods and the built in 4 barrel 30 cal gatling gun or the 30mm cannon.
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    medo

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:12 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    GarryB wrote:but there is a solid rocket booster that can be fitted to the Kh-31 to allow "slow" launches...

    Interesting....and thanks for the pics.

    Personally, I still think the Kh-31 would be overkill for a helicopter.

    Yes and no. Russian navy doesn't have large number of aircraft carriers, so naval infantry could have only support of helicopters on Mistral class ship. For example, Kuznetsov is in Northern fleet, Mistral will be in Pacific fleet. Ka-52 armed with Kh-31 will do anti-ship role and as well SEAD role to suppress enemy air defense before naval infantry reach the beach, that transport helicopters could transport troops and supply there. With Zhuk AESA radar, Ka-52 could be able to use R-73 and R-77 AA missiles, to do some air protection together with SAMs on ships.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:13 pm

    The air-launched version of the Kh-35 might be feasible though and the early Ka-52 demonstrator was shown with R-73 A-A missiles.

    Should also mention that the Kh-35 designed to be launched from helos also has a solid rocket booster... it is the same solid rocket booster with fins that is used for the ship launched version of the missile.




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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:30 am

    The Kh-35 is more than sufficient for most roles. I don't think the Ka-52 is meant for attacking cruisers or destroyers.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:17 am

    The Kh-35 is more than sufficient for most roles. I don't think the Ka-52 is meant for attacking cruisers or destroyers.

    Never hurts to have a choice... if detected early enough even a stinger can be used against low flying subsonic missiles like the Kh-35. MANPADS would have serious trouble with a Mach 3 Kh-31 no matter how much warning is given as a relatively small missile viewed end on covering almost a kilometre a second is a difficult target.

    In weigh terms they are very similar in the 650kg range.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:22 am

    Ka-52 test aboard Navy destroyer



    Arrow More pics here: http://bmpd.livejournal.com/65413.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:42 am

    Nice.

    BTW the picture above of the Kh-31 I posted which shows an external rocket booster has also been shown under a weapon pylon on a Su-35 at MAKS, which makes me wonder if it really is just a solid rocket booster for slow or stationary launch platforms, or if this is the new versions of the Kh-31 with double the range performance (ie Kh-31PD and Kh-31AD).
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:27 pm

    "Helicopters of Russia" and the Defense Ministry signed a contract to supply 140 helicopters Ka-52 for 20 billion rubles
    http://www.interfax-russia.ru/FarEast/news.asp?id=256474&sec=1671
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    Viktor

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Viktor on Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:26 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:"Helicopters of Russia" and the Defense Ministry signed a contract to supply 140 helicopters Ka-52 for 20 billion rubles
    http://www.interfax-russia.ru/FarEast/news.asp?id=256474&sec=1671

    Wait a sec .... WoW 140 Ka-52 Hellos are ordered???? or just typo from newsman?
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:47 pm

    Ria Novosti says "over a hundred" but keep in mind it's for the period up to 2020 and I'm guessing about 1/3 of them will be for the Navy
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    Viktor

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Viktor on Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:06 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Ria Novosti says "over a hundred" but keep in mind it's for the period up to 2020 and I'm guessing about 1/3 of them will be for the Navy

    Well number is 140 pieces of Ka-52 in contract worth 4 bin.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/66721.html

    Great, future of Ka-52 is sealed. No we wait for Hermes. Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:25 am

    I think they will have about 16 Ka-52s per Mistral, which means 64 aircraft just to fully equip the four ships they intent to buy. You would want at least the same number spare for training and of course to allow for down time for overhauls and updates.

    Being naval models they will likely need extra maintainence too in the form of washing off the salt.

    That leaves another ten or so perhaps for the ground forces to increase force numbers.

    Very good news.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:47 am

    Have read that the contract for 140 helos includes other Kamov aircraft including the Ka-60 and the Ka-225, so the Ka-52 is not so big as we assumed.

    Of course it is good they are buying the other helos too and a variety of helos are needed.

    I particularly like the Ka-225 with its modular pod... it should be thunderbird 8 or something... Smile
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:18 am

    It's 140 Ka-52 for the Airforce according to this report.

    http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=558973





    So it looks like the naval Ka-52K for the Mistrals will be a separate contract
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:43 am

    Well that is good news, they were only originally going to use 30-32 Ka-52s but it is pretty clear they have found the funds to buy more.

    Wonder if this is at the cost of Mi-28Ns or in addition to.

    I remember the talk of 30-32 Ka-52s was for special forces use, but the focus since seems to have been to make the Ka-52 a scout/recon helo... which previously the Russians have been using the light Mi-2 helo in that role.

    The Mi-2 now out of favour because it is very old and not produced in Russia, but the Ka-52 is quite a different aircraft from the Mi-2.

    There are new UAVs developed that can be carried in large pods carried under wing pylons that will make the two seat Ka-52 a very useful scout helo... with the ability to send UAVs into harms way to find targets and threats without exposing the helo to any direct danger.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:02 am

    Hope it is not because of problems with the Mi-28N...

    They appear to be working hard on upgrading the design to a Mi-28M, but that wont be ready for a while yet.


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