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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:08 am

    And would mean further standardisation between the two types... which is a good thing.


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    Cyrus the great

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:59 am

    It's been said  before by others, but I really do think that the GSh-23 would be a great weapon to replace the 2a42 in both the Ka-52 and the Mi-28. 1000+ 23×115mm rounds would be better than having 460 30×165mm in the Ka-52.  

    The obvious downside is that the GSh-23 has an effective range of 1200-1500m against ground targets whereas the 2a42 has an effective range of 4km - more than 2x the range. The GSh-23 should have its rate of fire significantly reduced down to 800 rounds a minute.

    Some questions:

    Why is the Ka-52 the only Russian attack helicopter without bullet-proof glass?

    Has Kamov resolved the vibration issues that prevented the placement of the mast-mounted CM radar? I read somewhere that they have achieved this.

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    Militarov

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:44 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:It's been said  before by others, but I really do think that the GSh-23 would be a great weapon to replace the 2a42 in both the Ka-52 and the Mi-28. 1000+ 23×115mm rounds would be better than having 460 30×165mm in the Ka-52.  

    The obvious downside is that the GSh-23 has an effective range of 1200-1500m against ground targets whereas the 2a42 has an effective range of 4km - more than 2x the range. The GSh-23 should have its rate of fire significantly reduced down to 800 rounds a minute.

    Some questions:

    Why is the Ka-52 the only Russian attack helicopter without bullet-proof glass?

    Has Kamov resolved the vibration issues that prevented the placement of the mast-mounted CM radar? I read somewhere that they have achieved this.


    And how would you make ejection seat work with bulletproof glass may i ask Very Happy

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:50 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:It's been said  before by others, but I really do think that the GSh-23 would be a great weapon to replace the 2a42 in both the Ka-52 and the Mi-28. 1000+ 23×115mm rounds would be better than having 460 30×165mm in the Ka-52.  

    The obvious downside is that the GSh-23 has an effective range of 1200-1500m against ground targets whereas the 2a42 has an effective range of 4km - more than 2x the range. The GSh-23 should have its rate of fire significantly reduced down to 800 rounds a minute.

    Some questions:

    Why is the Ka-52 the only Russian attack helicopter without bullet-proof glass?

    Has Kamov resolved the vibration issues that prevented the placement of the mast-mounted CM radar? I read somewhere that they have achieved this.


    And how would you make ejection seat work with bulletproof glass may i ask Very Happy

    Was that feature not first introduced in the Ka-50?
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    Benya

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Benya on Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:11 am

    Militarov wrote:And how would you make ejection seat work with bulletproof glass may i ask Very Happy

    It is possible with the use of explosive bolts, the same ones that blow off the rotor blades in case of emergency, and I think that the same mechanism can be used to blow away the canopy.

    Cyrus the great wrote:Why is the Ka-52 the only Russian attack helicopter without bullet-proof glass?

    Are you sure about that? Bulletproof canopy glass is pretty much a must to have for today's combat helos, so why would be the Ka-52 an exception?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:55 pm

    It's been said before by others, but I really do think that the GSh-23 would be a great weapon to replace the 2a42 in both the Ka-52 and the Mi-28. 1000+ 23×115mm rounds would be better than having 460 30×165mm in the Ka-52.

    I agree... the high velocity of the 30 x 165mm rounds is not really needed and vastly more ammo could be carried with the smaller round.

    The internal load on the Kamov would be easier to increase capacity, while for the Mi-28 perhaps lower hull mounted long boxes with belted ammo inside could be fitted to carry a large amount of ammo for the nose mounted turret.

    The smaller lighter gun with much lower recoil would offer less flight drag and would be more accurate in longer bursts, yet its heavy projectile would offer effective HE performance against most soft ground targets.

    Why is the Ka-52 the only Russian attack helicopter without bullet-proof glass?

    The curved glass is not bullet proof... neither is the curved cockpit on the top of the pilot and gunners positions on the Hind.

    I don't know of any curved glass arrangements that are bullet resistant.


    It is possible with the use of explosive bolts, the same ones that blow off the rotor blades in case of emergency, and I think that the same mechanism can be used to blow away the canopy.

    They used to blow off the whole canopy but it turned out rather faster to just shatter the upper glass surface to eject through the canopy. If you look closely the top glass of the Ka-52 has a zigzag of opaque (not see through) material... that is actually explosive to shatter the material so the crewman can eject through.

    Would not work with bullet resistant transparencies...

    Are you sure about that? Bulletproof canopy glass is pretty much a must to have for today's combat helos, so why would be the Ka-52 an exception?

    The screen fronts are 23mm cannon shell resistant... the curved top canopy is not bullet resistant.

    BTW, there is no such thing as bullet proof.


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    Cheetah

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cheetah on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:26 pm

    Oh, my



    I suppose that pilot was in for a scolding when he landed

    Edit:
    Allow me to be the cynical bastard and ask what version of the S-8 that Ka was using. There was video of the aftermath hosted on RT and it looked to me as if there was minimal shrapnel damage to the surroundings, so I am inclined to say it was the HEAT variant, the S-8KO or some such. If that were the case, I'd say the people on the ground ought to buy a lotto ticket. If it were a fragmentation variant, however, I'd question the rocket's abilities since, supposedly, there were no deaths.
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    franco

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  franco on Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:12 pm

    Was not there an incident a few years back out in the Eastern district with a S7 self firing causing a Su-25 plane accident? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:30 am

    Definitely HEAT rockets, anything with shrapnel and there would be lots of corpses

    Apparently it was FCS malfunction, pilot activated weapon but it sent signal for rockets to launch

    Looking at that impact zone gives you appreciation for destructive potential for these rockets, just little puff on launcher and WROOOM on the ground split second later...
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    Cheetah

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cheetah on Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:24 am

    franco wrote:Was not there an incident a few years back out in the Eastern district with a S7 self firing causing a Su-25 plane accident? Correct me if I'm wrong.  
    I assume you mean S-8 or some other rocket from the S- family? Not to my memory

    Though, one of the notable incidents of the Su-25 stated on wikipedia talks about an aircraft exploding in mid-air back in 2008, apparently due to a wing-man's friendly fire.
    Perhaps that is the one you're thinking of?
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    franco

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  franco on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:31 pm

    Cheetah wrote:
    franco wrote:Was not there an incident a few years back out in the Eastern district with a S7 self firing causing a Su-25 plane accident? Correct me if I'm wrong.  
    I assume you mean S-8 or some other rocket from the S- family? Not to my memory

    Though, one of the notable incidents of the Su-25 stated on wikipedia talks about an aircraft exploding in mid-air back in 2008, apparently due to a wing-man's friendly fire.
    Perhaps that is the one you're thinking of?

    Believe that is the one, a S whatever air-ground rocket went off and hit his partner.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:44 pm

    Footage of the KA-52 incident and missfire during Zapad 2017.

    http://radikal.ru/video/LyBq743pz16

    Aftermath.

    http://radikal.ru/video/YqR10oUsW6n
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    George1

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:55 pm

    8 Ka-52 delivered to the Western Mil. District(ZVO). Technicians will inspect & check the documentation.Later, flight crews shall carry out system checks. After subsequent test flights they'll be transferred to a permanent base.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12150176@egNews



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    MC-21

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  MC-21 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:49 am

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    George1

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:15 pm

    Seems like 8 more Kamov-52 helicopters have been transferred to the MoD & are now at the Ostrov airfield.

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12156648


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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:35 am

    The obvious downside is that the GSh-23 has an effective range of 1200-1500m against ground targets whereas the 2a42 has an effective range of 4km - more than 2x the range. The GSh-23 should have its rate of fire significantly reduced down to 800 rounds a minute.

    With laser range finding and an accurate ballistic model for the round there is no reason why the GSh-23 could not hit targets at longer ranges than that.

    Of course the adoption of Ugroza guidance kits for unguided rockets would mean HE rockets and HEAT rockets could all be precision weapons out to 5 or 6km range so a reduction in max range for the cannon would not be a huge problem.

    Having a cannon able to carry thousands of rounds would be more use than a more powerful gun firing a few hundred rounds.

    The HE power of the 23mm rounds makes them rather more effective than HMG rounds or 20mm light cannon rounds... against other targets 80mm rockets and ATGMs would be rather more effective.


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    Peŕrier

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:22 pm

    If I'm right, Gsh-23 ammunition is little effective against dispersed soft target because the ammunition casing is very thin walled and on detonation splinters generated are very little and light.

    It was developed to cause extensive damages to aircrafts' structures through blast and incendiary flash, not through shrapnels.

    Moreover, the whole gun was developed to have a fairly great dispersion so to maximize the barrage effect on ZSU 23-4. Employed as a single gun it has a hard time trying to pinpoint selectively small targets.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:10 am

    The fact that you confuse the GSh-23 with the 2A14 and 2A7 is a point to begin with.

    The twin barrel 23mm GSh-23 fires the 23 x 115mm AM-23 round specifically designed to be a low recoil compact round for aircraft to fire at other aircraft.

    It uses the same projectile as the 23 x 152mm round as used by the two different guns used on the ZU-23 and the ZSU-23-4, but the shell case is much shorter and more compact, so it moves at much lower velocities.

    Needless to say for firing up at fast moving aircraft the 23 x 152mm ammo makes sense to extend effective range, but to fire from the air at stationary ground targets the 23 x 115mm rounds are perfectly adequate and have enough HE power to do damage to the soft targets they hit or land very close by.

    They are certainly not replacements for 80mm rockets in terms of HE frags.

    The GSh-23 is actually rather accurate and quite a potent weapon that was regarded quite highly by South African pilots who flew the various aircraft it was mounted on (MiG-21, MiG-23, and inside gun pods and late model hinds).

    Employed as a single gun it has a hard time trying to pinpoint selectively small targets.

    Having four barrels would not change that very much.... for small targets like UAVs the Russians are going for guided 57mm and airburst 57mm and 30mm rounds...


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  kopyo-21 on Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:21 pm

    I don't think they should replace 2A42 30mm gun on Mi-28 and Ka-52 by Gsh-23L 23mm gun. Obviously, 30mm shells, both AP and HE, are much more powerfull than 23mm shells so the range of targets that can be destroyed by them are wider, including heavy amored IFV. Firing down from above, the 30mm HE shell is more powerfull and effective than the 30/40mm grenade shell in case of anti a group of soldiers under trenches or hiding after thick walls.

    The most importance is the 2A42 will keep Ka-52 and Mi-28 out of firing range of AA guns like Zu-23-2 or even manpads that are very popular, flexibly moving and difficult to detect in any confliction over the world.


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:55 am

    GarryB wrote:The fact that you confuse the GSh-23 with the 2A14 and 2A7 is a point to begin with.

    The twin barrel 23mm GSh-23 fires the 23 x 115mm AM-23 round specifically designed to be a low recoil compact round for aircraft to fire at other aircraft.

    It uses the same projectile as the 23 x 152mm round as used by the two different guns used on the ZU-23 and the ZSU-23-4, but the shell case is much shorter and more compact, so it moves at much lower velocities.

    Needless to say for firing up at fast moving aircraft the 23 x 152mm ammo makes sense to extend effective range, but to fire from the air at stationary ground targets the 23 x 115mm rounds are perfectly adequate and have enough HE power to do damage to the soft targets they hit or land very close by.

    They are certainly not replacements for 80mm rockets in terms of HE frags.

    The GSh-23 is actually rather accurate and quite a potent weapon that was regarded quite highly by South African pilots who flew the various aircraft it was mounted on (MiG-21, MiG-23, and inside gun pods and late model hinds).

    Employed as a single gun it has a hard time trying to pinpoint selectively small targets.

    Having four barrels would not change that very much.... for small targets like UAVs the Russians are going for guided 57mm and airburst 57mm and 30mm rounds...

    I know that ZSU23-4 do not use the GSh-23 cannon, but the shell (except the propellant charge with its own case) I believe is the same, sharing the same basic aerodynamic characteristics. The slower velocity of the specific ammunition employed by GSh23 should only make precision a little worse, at least on longer ranges.

    Precision has had different meanings in the past... in air to air, it was referred within few hundreds meters ranges, in air to surface strafings, until modern ballistic computers and aiming aids (hi-res tv or IR channels) took on such task, it was referred to short ranges to, at least short when compared to ranges that are standard engagement's distances nowadays.  Maybe in the 70ies and in the 80ies a GSh-23 was a pretty precise weapon, but by today's fairly extended engagement's ranges it could find itself at strain.

    The explosive shell by itself, anyway, had a short letality range, this is quite well known.

    I'm pretty sure that I read in the past some comment from officers belonging the Russian armed forces that the choice to ditch Gsh-23 on helicopters came after the experience in Afghanistan.

    There the old 12,7 mm gatling gun of Mi-24 proved totally inadequate on taking down enemies entrenched amid rocky terrain, mud walls and the likes, and Commands opted to rearm the Mi-24 with the GSh-23 as a stop gap measure.

    While still better and far more effective than the 12,7 mm gun, it seems it was judged still not adequate both in terms of precision and terminal letality.

    It was the reason behind of the choice of the 30 mm 2A42, because the single shot has far better letality, and the gun with its ammunition has far improved accuracy to engage selectively small targets, as a single AT team or similar entrenched, at long ranges, improving the helicopter's own security.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:49 am

    The most importance is the 2A42 will keep Ka-52 and Mi-28 out of firing range of AA guns like Zu-23-2 or even manpads that are very popular, flexibly moving and difficult to detect in any confliction over the world.

    That is the best reason to keep the current gun, but the introduction of guidance kits for 80mm and larger calibre unguided rockets together with ATGMs might represent a shift from being a "gun"ship to a rocket ship.

    The low cost of the gun makes it useful but needing to get close to the target to use it makes it less useful.

    Having guided rockets in large numbers at low cost could make the gun less useful for many missions.

    The high power of the 30 x 165mm gun means long bursts move around the place a lot, whereas a lower power round (recoil) but still with a significant HE payload could make bursts more accurate and more useful... a burst of 10 rounds from the 23mm gun means a cluster of 10 explosions around the point of aim compared with a 2-3 round burst from the 30mm scattered further apart. The 30mm rounds with more HE but the greater distance and fewer rounds means perhaps less effectiveness.

    Would be interesting to see an evaluation of the Mi-28 and Ka-52 in Syria compared with the Mi-35 Hind with the chin mounted twin 23mm guns.


    I know that ZSU23-4 do not use the GSh-23 cannon, but the shell (except the propellant charge with its own case) I believe is the same, sharing the same basic aerodynamic characteristics. The slower velocity of the specific ammunition employed by GSh23 should only make precision a little worse, at least on longer ranges.

    Extreme accuracy and muzzle velocity are not important for helicopter mounted guns... just look at the 30mm gun on the Apache.

    The compact ammo would allow rather more ammo to be carried so using it in bursts of more than 5 rounds would make it more effective while not taking up more space on board than the much bigger 30mm rounds. The much lower recoil would also make bursts more effective.

    Maybe in the 70ies and in the 80ies a GSh-23 was a pretty precise weapon, but by today's fairly extended engagement's ranges it could find itself at strain.

    The weapon has very low recoil because of the very low muzzle velocity (normally about 700m/s) so very high rates of fire result in bursts creating clusters of fire like a shotgun blast. This made it very effective in the short range AA role (200-600m at most), but also in the air to ground strafing role too and it was found to be rather accurate in the latter role... it is also in gun pods for helicopter and fixed wing aircraft use.

    Individual rounds lack the HE power of the much heavier 30mm rounds but a cluster of 3-4 rounds would actually be more effective against unprotected targets.
    Especially on the ground.


    The explosive shell by itself, anyway, had a short letality range, this is quite well known.

    Very true, but that is also a criticism levelled at the 30mm cannon... the main reason the BMP-3 carries a 100mm rifled gun to deliver real HE fire power against soft targets.

    I'm pretty sure that I read in the past some comment from officers belonging the Russian armed forces that the choice to ditch Gsh-23 on helicopters came after the experience in Afghanistan.

    There were no helicopters in Afghanistan (1979-1989) that had 23mm cannons except mounted in gun pods under the wings.

    My understanding is that the first Hinds there either had the first model single barrel 12.7mm gun or the 4 barrel 12.7mm gatling. The first gatling was criticised because of overheating... it was a light weapon. The improved model could fire the entire belt of ammo in one burst without over heating.

    Either way the 12.7mm ammo didn't outrange the ground fire that included 12.7mm and 14.5mm HMG weapons and the odd 23mm gun (23 x 152mm).

    The response was going to be a chin turret mounted 30mm but the ammo was too powerful to mount in a chin turret so the scabbed the gun to the side of the aircraft in a fixed mount. In the 1980s they managed to develop a chin turret as fitted to the Mi-28A, but was not until the mid 1990s that they managed to develop a 23mm chin turret... mainly because of the low recoil of the round they managed... the main issues AFAIK was ammo feed which was tricky because of the rate of fire of these weapons. The 2A42 on the Mi-28A and Ka-50 has a much more sedate rate of fire in comparison, but vastly more recoil issues.

    There the old 12,7 mm gatling gun of Mi-24 proved totally inadequate on taking down enemies entrenched amid rocky terrain, mud walls and the likes, and Commands opted to rearm the Mi-24 with the GSh-23 as a stop gap measure.

    The gatling was popular and found to be rather useful, but it lacked range as mentioned. The only GSh-23s on Hinds were in Gunpods AFAIK... they were also popular on Su-25s.

    It was the reason behind of the choice of the 30 mm 2A42, because the single shot has far better letality, and the gun with its ammunition has far improved accuracy to engage selectively small targets, as a single AT team or similar entrenched, at long ranges, improving the helicopter's own security.

    The Mi-28A and Ka-50 and the model of Hind with the twin barrel 30mm cannon would fire in single rounds where possible because the enormous recoil meant bursts were not very accurate... it is a very powerful round.

    A long range target would likely be engaged with shturm or ataka ATGMs...


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  kopyo-21 on Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:31 pm

    Actually, Soviet developed Mi-24VP, the Mi-24 version with chin mounted gsh-23L 23mm gun in 1985 with experiences and lessons learned from Afghanistan. This was compromised solution between the weak, short firing range but flexibly chin-mounted 12.7mm 4-barrel gun on Mi-24D/V and the powerfull but inflexibly fix-side-mounted 30mm double-barrel gun on Mi-24P.

    Totally 25 Mi-24VP were produced and some of them were converted to Mi-24VM prototypes in 1998 that have evolved to become Mi-35M/M3 nowaday.

    Mi-24VP


    Mi-24VM
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:47 am

    It was my understanding that it took rather longer to get the ammo feed working properly and while they were working on that they introduced the scabbed on 30mm twin barrel cannon. The chin turret model was not an option during the Afghan war because it was not working properly until the 1990s.


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:44 am

    Mi-24Ps with Gsh-30K 30mm gun had been produced since 1981 and lasted until 1989. Mi-24VPs with Gsh-23L gun turret had been developed since 1985. Compare the milestones, Mi-24Ps could not be compromised solution of Mi-24VPs. In reality, Soviet force in Afghanistan was most happy with Mi-24P due to its powerfull gun. However, with the fixed gun, the job of pilot was overloaded so the compromised version, Mi-24VP with 23mm gun turret, was created.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 am

    Before they put the 30mm gun on the side of the Hind they tried to develop a chin turret... it didn't work.

    If you say they got it working by 1985... that is OK, but the fact that they kept making the 30mm model for 4 years after they got the chin turret 23mm gun going suggests there were problems.

    They wanted a chin turret so the gunner could operate the weapons and the pilot could concentrate on flying the aircraft... with the fixed 30mm the pilot controlled the gun and the unguided rockets and any wing mounted gun pods while the gunner operated the guided missiles only.

    With a chin turret, the gunner could operate the gun and the missiles...

    With the Ka-50 the pilot was the gunner too so it was not an issue but the Ka-52 pretty much has the same issues in needing the pilot to aim the rockets and gun.

    In reality, Soviet force in Afghanistan was most happy with Mi-24P due to its powerfull gun

    It is a very powerful weapon... look at werewolfs signature to see how much the recoil throws the whole aircraft around during firing... In comparison the 23mm gun is much more suited to the role.


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