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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

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    George1
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:03 am

    It is reported that combat helicopters Ka-52 will be transferred to Syria

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1680951.html


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    Cyrus the great
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:28 pm

    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalet detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.


    Last edited by Cyrus the great on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

    medo
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:48 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  

    Arbalet tracks 20 targets simultaneously. This is more than enough as Ka-52 doesn't have enough armament to engage this number of targets.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:33 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  


    scratch Are you sur for the Longbow ? 256 is way too much for a helicopter radar. It's the level of a ground based big radar.

    Cyrus the great
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:35 pm

    medo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  

    Arbalet tracks 20 targets simultaneously. This is more than enough as Ka-52 doesn't have enough armament to engage this number of targets.

    I would agree, but having a full picture of the battlefield would be preferable. The Russians can increase the detection capability of this radar. There are small AESA radars that can detect 1,000 targets.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:39 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  


    scratch Are you sur for the Longbow ? 256 is way too much for a helicopter radar. It's the level of a ground based big radar.

    That's what I read from multiple sources. The Israelis have a 50 kg radar that can apparently detect 1,000 targets, so it's possible.

    x_54_u43
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  x_54_u43 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:10 pm

    It is 128 targets, but it prioritizes the top 16, also Longbow is 360 degrees while Arbalet only covers the front hemisphere at best.

    I would take the Arbalet any day...Especially with the rest of the Ka-52s systems.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Militarov on Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:19 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  


    scratch Are you sur for the Longbow ? 256 is way too much for a helicopter radar. It's the level of a ground based big radar.

    Its 128 i belive, but it also determines 30(ish? dont rly recall exact number, i guess it could be 32) most dangerous targets and allows you to attack 16 of them at the same time.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:34 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  


    scratch Are you sur for the Longbow ? 256 is way too much for a helicopter radar. It's the level of a ground based big radar.

    Its 128 i belive, but it also determines 30(ish? dont rly recall exact number, i guess it could be 32) most dangerous targets and allows you to attack 16 of them at the same time.

    I've come across that figure as well, but Lockheed Martin itself claims that the Longbow radar can detect 256 targets simultaneously. Source: http://www.lockheedmartin.com.au/uk/what-we-do/products/LONGBOWFCRandLONGBOWHELLFIREMissile.html

    x_54_u43 wrote:It is 128 targets, but it prioritizes the top 16, also Longbow is 360 degrees while Arbalet only covers the front hemisphere at best.

    I would take the Arbalet any day...Especially with the rest of the Ka-52s systems.

    I was under the impression that the Arbalet radar was mast mounted -- without any restrictions in azimuth and elevation. I just wonder what affect coaxial rotors would have on the performance of a mast mounted radar.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:03 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  


    scratch Are you sur for the Longbow ? 256 is way too much for a helicopter radar. It's the level of a ground based big radar.

    Its 128 i belive, but it also determines 30(ish? dont rly recall exact number, i guess it could be 32) most dangerous targets and allows you to attack 16 of them at the same time.

    I've come across that figure as well, but Lockheed Martin itself claims that the Longbow radar can detect 256 targets simultaneously. Source: http://www.lockheedmartin.com.au/uk/what-we-do/products/LONGBOWFCRandLONGBOWHELLFIREMissile.html

    x_54_u43 wrote:It is 128 targets, but it prioritizes the top 16, also Longbow is 360 degrees while Arbalet only covers the front hemisphere at best.

    I would take the Arbalet any day...Especially with the rest of the Ka-52s systems.

    I was under the impression that the Arbalet radar was mast mounted -- without any restrictions in azimuth and elevation. I just wonder what affect coaxial rotors would have on the performance of a mast mounted radar.

    It makes more sense to place the radars on the side and rear of the helicopter body.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:49 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  

    Arbalet tracks 20 targets simultaneously. This is more than enough as Ka-52 doesn't have enough armament to engage this number of targets.

    I would agree,  but having a full picture of the battlefield would be preferable. The Russians can increase the detection capability of this radar. There are small AESA radars that can detect 1,000 targets.

    Detecting and tracking targets are not the same thing. You could detect 100 targets, but simultaneously tracking 20 targets is a different capabilities. How many targets could simultaneously track Longbow radar?

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:12 pm

    medo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  

    Arbalet tracks 20 targets simultaneously. This is more than enough as Ka-52 doesn't have enough armament to engage this number of targets.

    I would agree,  but having a full picture of the battlefield would be preferable. The Russians can increase the detection capability of this radar. There are small AESA radars that can detect 1,000 targets.

    Detecting and tracking targets are not the same thing. You could detect 100 targets, but simultaneously tracking 20 targets is a different capabilities. How many targets could simultaneously track Longbow radar?

    The Longbow radar can detect, simultaneously track 256 targets, prioritize the most dangerous and initiate a concerted attack with other Apaches in as little as one minute. If the Arbalet radar is limited in azimuth and elevation, then the Longbow is superior for the moment.

    Magnumcromagnon

    Why and how is a side or rear mounted radar superior to a mast mounted radar?

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:57 pm

    http://kret.com/en/news/3728/

    200km range for Ka-52K

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:27 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I just read up on the Arbalet radar and it seems to be superior to the Longbow in every way except for the number of targets that it can detect. The Arbalets detects only 20 targets simultaneously.  The Longbow can apparently detect 256 targets. The Arbalet has longer range and better resolution.  

    Arbalet tracks 20 targets simultaneously. This is more than enough as Ka-52 doesn't have enough armament to engage this number of targets.

    I would agree,  but having a full picture of the battlefield would be preferable. The Russians can increase the detection capability of this radar. There are small AESA radars that can detect 1,000 targets.

    Detecting and tracking targets are not the same thing. You could detect 100 targets, but simultaneously tracking 20 targets is a different capabilities. How many targets could simultaneously track Longbow radar?

    The Longbow radar can detect,  simultaneously track 256 targets,  prioritize the most dangerous and initiate a concerted attack with other Apaches in as little as one minute. If the Arbalet radar is limited in azimuth and elevation,  then the Longbow is superior for the moment.

    Magnumcromagnon

    Why and how is a side or rear mounted radar superior to a mast mounted radar?

    Because you won't have to put unnecessary strain on the coaxial rotors.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:52 pm

    Plus vibration is a real hamper too.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:22 pm


    From the mouth of the designer......



    http://old.redstar.ru/2008/03/05_03/4_02.html







    Cyrus the great
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:12 am

    Isos wrote:http://kret.com/en/news/3728/

    200km range for Ka-52K

    The range is incredible and absolutely puts the Longbow to shame when it comes to range. Most sources cite the range of the Longbow at only 8 km. I've only come across two sources that cite the range of the Longbow at 50 km.

    Source: http://www.army-technology.com/news/newssouth-korea-plans-to-deploy-ah-64e-apache-helicopters-ahead-of-schedule-4796912

    Source: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/01/205_196370.html


    Magnumcromagnon wrote:Because you won't have to put unnecessary strain on the coaxial rotors.

    Sepheronx wrote:Plus vibration is a real hamper too.


    Makes sense. As long as it has full 360 degree view, it's all good.


    Mindstorm wrote:From the mouth of the designer......



    http://old.redstar.ru/2008/03/05_03/4_02.html

    Thanks a million for the incredibly informative source, mate.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:27 pm

    How do Russia's tactical data-links compare with NATO's Link 16 and Link 22? And how do Russian mission computers compare? The AH-64E Guardian has a new mission computer with a 48 core processor -- with future growth to 80 cores. The 48 core mission computer is impressive, consuming just 25 watts. The commercial Tilera 100 core processor consumes 55 watts. I can't wait to see the kind of mission computer that will be incorporated into the Armata and other Russian platforms.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:29 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:How do Russia's tactical data-links compare with NATO's Link 16 and Link 22? And how do Russian mission computers compare? The AH-64E Guardian has a new mission computer with a 48 core processor -- with future growth to 80 cores. The 48 core mission computer is impressive, consuming just 25 watts. The commercial Tilera 100 core processor consumes 55 watts. I can't wait to see the kind of mission computer that will be incorporated into the Armata and other Russian platforms.
    To be honest, that just sounds ridiculous.  Nothing, even supercomputing equient, dont have more than 32 cores in a single server, and eats up way more wattage.  So either someone is lying real hard, or they are using something that is custom built processor and running at like low frequency or something.

    Russia could use an Elbrus-2C+ and do just fine.  2 cores to do everything else and 4 dsp cores to do raw data translation from radar and other comm equipment.  And that would be more than enough.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:43 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:How do Russia's tactical data-links compare with NATO's Link 16 and Link 22? And how do Russian mission computers compare? The AH-64E Guardian has a new mission computer with a 48 core processor -- with future growth to 80 cores. The 48 core mission computer is impressive, consuming just 25 watts. The commercial Tilera 100 core processor consumes 55 watts. I can't wait to see the kind of mission computer that will be incorporated into the Armata and other Russian platforms.
    To be honest, that just sounds ridiculous.  Nothing, even supercomputing equient, dont have more than 32 cores in a single server, and eats up way more wattage.  So either someone is lying real hard, or they are using something that is custom built processor and running at like low frequency or something.

    Russia could use an Elbrus-2C+ and do just fine.  2 cores to do everything else and 4 dsp cores to do raw data translation from radar and other comm equipment.  And that would be more than enough.

    You are lookin at it wrong way. Those are not commercial CPU-s as you know it, those are multiple cores on same chip connected by mesh technology. They are basically high-performance multi-core network processors that are not very useful in every day computers, however Google is using them for indexing for an example, they are used in Internet security servers, for distance video monitoring, in systems that monitor railroads... stuff like that that require many threads but not insane amounts of computing power per thread.



    EZchip's TILE-Gx72 would be i assume most famous chip of that kind, 72 cores each 1,2Ghz and its rated on 65W

    Here you have more about it if you are interested: http://www.tilera.com/files/drim__TILE-Gx8072_PB041-04_WEB_7666.pdf

    These are great coz you can assign number of cores to deal with different tasks. Some work with HUD, life support, engine diagnostics, weapon diagnostics, flight parameters, various sensors.. some systems even have multiple "system on chip" like this if amount of data that needs to be processed is big.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:47 pm

    I see now.  OK.  Interesting but for a mission computer alone it sounds wasteful.  Are these actual cores or are they more like celluare cores?

    I take it they just use 1 computer for all purposes then for the apache if it uses something like that?

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:27 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I see now.  OK.  Interesting but for a mission computer alone it sounds wasteful.  Are these actual cores or are they more like celluare cores?

    I take it they just use 1 computer for all purposes then for the apache if it uses something like that?

    They are actual physical cores, just they are not as powerful as commercial CPU cores, this is extremly high density chip. I am not sure about how many separate chips Apache uses, but i assume there is one central chip based on something similar to this, and couple other less powerful computers for redundancy and backup systems or to control basic systems, i assume it has few PLC like computers too for hydraulics and similar.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:54 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I see now.  OK.  Interesting but for a mission computer alone it sounds wasteful.  Are these actual cores or are they more like celluare cores?

    I take it they just use 1 computer for all purposes then for the apache if it uses something like that?

    They are actual physical cores, just they are not as powerful as commercial CPU cores, this is extremly high density chip. I am not sure about how many separate chips Apache uses, but i assume there is one central chip based on something similar to this, and couple other less powerful computers for redundancy and backup systems or to control basic systems, i assume it has few PLC like computers too for hydraulics and similar.
    It took a while for this to dawn on me.  I know these type of chips.

    I imagine Russias method is separate computers to do different tasks.  That is my ideal setup but more complicated.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:56 pm

    Kamov Ka-50/52 uses 4 computing modules with lined up redundancy for main computing module that coordinates the the seperated modules, failsafer that way.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:33 am

    If the Arbalet radar is limited in azimuth and elevation, then the Longbow is superior for the moment.

    Arbalet has two antennas for two radar... the main air to ground radar points forward and is for detecting ground targets in MMW radar frequencies.

    The mast mounted 360 degree radar is a longer wave radar that is not effected so badly by moisture in the atmosphere and has a much greater detection range.

    5km range to detect a stinger missile... keep in mind that a Stinger heading toward the helo would be flying nose forward and would present a target about 7.5cm round at 5km range...

    Most sources cite the range of the Longbow at only 8 km. I've only come across two sources that cite the range of the Longbow at 50 km.

    Depends on the target... likely 8km for a tank, and 50km for a large ship or bridge.

    Makes sense. As long as it has full 360 degree view, it's all good.

    Only for Air to air use.

    How do Russia's tactical data-links compare with NATO's Link 16 and Link 22? And how do Russian mission computers compare? The AH-64E Guardian has a new mission computer with a 48 core processor -- with future growth to 80 cores. The 48 core mission computer is impressive, consuming just 25 watts. The commercial Tilera 100 core processor consumes 55 watts. I can't wait to see the kind of mission computer that will be incorporated into the Armata and other Russian platforms.

    Core information being passed from platform to platform is the main difference... with an expensive high performance system you get realtime HD video footage of the target with realtime coordinates, with a simpler cheaper setup you get map coordinates and target data... the main difference is bandwidth... and the question whether you want to see video of the hospitals being taken out in the US system or the terrorists being killed in the Russian system. Razz


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