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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

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    medo
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:14 pm

    Considering, that customer was not named, I think this could be either Iran either North Korea.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:07 pm

    medo wrote:Considering, that customer was not named, I think this could be either Iran either North Korea.

    Definitely not North Korea, but I'm betting money on Egypt as a way to send a message to the U.S. that if you arbitrarily halt deliveries of equipment (which they did for Egypt in 2013, and in Iraq in 2014), than they'll stop buying from you and start buying from somebody 'else', which is codeword for Russia.

    It's no mere coincidence that both Egypt and Iraq simultaneously (within a span of a '1' and 1/2 years) having almost all their equipment order book be bought from the U.S., then suddenly switch to almost having their entire equipment orders supplied from Russia...

    ...Simply put, they're tired of having their equipment coming with strings attached!!!

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:33 am

    Here's some footage of Sikorsky's Ka-50/52 clone, so what's your thoughts Werewolf? I'm going to reserve my judgement for a later post.


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:14 pm

    The Sikorsky S-97 is a co-axial shemed helicopter with a pusher but much different in the rotor layout from Kamov. The Sikorsky is relative specialized on speed with a rigid rotor which translates good in flight input and response a little bit quicker than Kamov, however it sacrifices maneuverability, since helicopters main maneuverability comes from the rotor swashblade which angles the rotor disc and directs them to create and translate movement in pith and roll.
    This effect on rigid rotor designs is greatly reduced which makes it unsuitable for the exact same role as Ka-50/52, however the S-97 is a multipurpose helicopter and will be used for the same roles as UH-60 but will never reach any serious capabilities and certainly not in this layout a certification as a dedicated CAS aircraft (attack helicopter) as some would like to see it. For that Maneuverability is highly important and outweights speed by far. The rigid rotor design in different helicopter tests at Bell and Sikorsky aswell at Kamov have shown that rigid rotors translate much more vibration to the fuselage and cockpit than a normal rotor design with swashblade like Kamov. The intense vibrations in prototype of X-2 can be seen, which do shake the pilot through which can be heared on his voice. Another aspect is that rigid co-axial rotor layout, the rotors of each set can be closer together but that sacrifices the allowed maneuvering limits of yaw and tilt of the helicopter, much lower then what the prototype of V-80 was which today have been lossed and almost lifted. The big problem i see is the rigid rotors itself, they are civilian purposed and have not the appearance of having any kind of structural resistance for any combat involvement despite the helicopter being advertised to have similiar capabilities like UH-60 or Mi-8 as an assault helicopter. That is the only true thing i can critizes, but maybe i am wrong and they found a way to create small rigid rotors with composites light and stiff enough to be resilient to calibres that are prone to be fired against aircrafts 12.7mm+.



    It is a good design without yet having seen much off it, but should be a basis for good multirole capable helicopter, with lot of trades but not specialized for anything, like all multipurpose aircrafts sacrifice of some specialized parameters but can do more jobs. We will see similiar helicopters more in civil market then in military, the main concern like the prototype shows is the fuselage design which reminds me very much of civil purposed lightweight, without reinforced body nor appearance of military requirements. Will be interesting if they will shape it to more military fertile designs.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:59 pm

    ^its swashplate, not swashblade Cool . this new helo looks good, but like Werewolf said would roll like a jack of all trades, master of none kind of helo.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:10 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:^its swashplate, not swashblade Cool . this new helo looks good, but like Werewolf said would roll like a jack of all trades, master of none kind of helo.

    English terminology... sue me. Cool

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:29 pm

    Nice big set of photos of good quality and close ups of Alligator-K.
























































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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  max steel on Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:17 pm

    Lockheed in talks to buy Sikorsky: Report

    Sikorsky was founded in 1925 in New York by aviation pioneer Igor Sikorsky, an aeronautic engineer who left Russia for the United States after the Bolshevik revolution. Neutral





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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:22 pm

    max steel wrote: Lockheed in talks to buy Sikorsky: Report

    Sikorsky was founded in 1925 in New York by aviation pioneer Igor Sikorsky, an aeronautic engineer who left Russia for the United States after the Bolshevik revolution.  Neutral





    To bad for sikorsky. It is like Ubisoft or EA buying off game developers and producing Shit money makers without quality and bugs (F-35) or Assassins Creed.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:32 am

    Ka-52 with Kh-35


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:32 pm

    Concern "radio-Electronic technology" has developed a multi-channel laser-beam guidance system (LSN) for helicopters Ka-52, Mi-MNP, Mi-28N. The new development will provide highly accurate missile guidance and will allow the helicopters to use rockets of various types. LSN is designed to perform tasks of motion control and bring the guided missile to the target, captured and held by the automatic accompaniment or manually by an operator. The system uses a powerful CW solid-state laser pumped by laser diodes. Scanning of a laser beam is a compact, low-inertia, two-coordinate acousto-optic deflector, without mechanical parts operated by electric signals. In products-analogues control field created purely mechanical means, which leads to lower performance, lower reliability, increased size and mass. "Concern established for manufacturing of highly intelligent and innovative systems and introducing them to the series. They should be universal, in other words – it must be installed on old and new equipment," – said the first Deputy CEO of KRET Igor Nasenkov. According to him, modern laser technology KRET fully meet these requirements. "In particular, the LSN can be installed on helicopters and ground vehicles, MANPADS, and the drones," added Igor Nasenkov. The LSN test confirmed the high precision guided missiles and high reliability of the developed instrument. The laser guidance system is commercially available at KRET.

    Yandex translated source

    KRET

    Werewolf
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:39 pm

    Ka-52 Cockpit Simulator

    http://vk.com/video169874297_169944284?hash=2e4b417ed83dfeda
    http://vk.com/video169874297_169853858?hash=1aac5136f135417d

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  franco on Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:35 am

    K-52 in the Far East;

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1432337.html

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  franco on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:57 pm

    Some nice shots of the weapons on the K-52;
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1433191.html

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  AttilaA on Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:56 pm

    Apparently the export contract for Ka-52 is with Egypt.

    http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/135596.html

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:15 pm

    AttilaA wrote:Apparently the export contract for Ka-52 is with Egypt.

    http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/135596.html

    So by todays exchange rate of USD and RUB it would mean that 1x GOES-451 costs 1.45 mln USD, quite expensive but cheaper now.




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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:21 am


    http://savepic.net/7404706.png

    The General suggested that in these circumstances it is necessary to modernize air defense facility, one of the important elements which could use the helicopter-interceptor. The task of such a machine would be a rapid response to emerging threat posed by "unconventional" means of air attack and destruction purposes, the use for which anti-aircraft missile systems and fighters unreasonably or technically impossible.

    In this capacity, the Kamov design Bureau has proposed to use the fighter Ka-50. The interceptor was supposed to equip exclusively mass-produced systems. As a means of detecting air targets had to be set radar "Spear", was developed and implemented in a series of OJSC "Fazotron-NIIR", and opto-electronic sighting system of JSC "Geophysics-ART", similar to that installed on various versions of su-27 fighters. As a means of destruction was proposed to use guided missiles R-77 class "air–air", launchers of MANPADS "Igla" and promising multipurpose complex guided weapons "Hermes" Tula design Bureau. Helicopter-interceptor using a 30-mm gun 2A42 could effectively deal with "unconventional" means of air attack, to which S. V. Mikheev attributed primarily UAVs, light aircraft, gliders and trikes.

    The letter focuses attention was drawn to the fact that the new complex "Shark" is built on the open architecture that allowed relatively easy to integrate helicopter-interceptor in a single information field of antiaircraft defense of the country. This ensured the smooth rise and output to a district meeting for the purpose of helicopter-interceptor, and, consequently, reduced the reaction time of the defense to the emerging air threat. An important factor was the possibility of interfacing avionics Ka-50 with a flow of information from aircraft airborne early warning And-50 and held while testing radar picket helicopters Ka-35.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:47 pm

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/69509/

    ИЖЕВСК, 23 октября. /Корр. ТАСС Евгения Самуськова/. Концерн «Калашников» поставил Минобороны РФ первую партию управляемых ракет «Вихрь-1», сообщили в пятницу в пресс-службе предприятия.

    «На сегодняшний день концерн „Калашников“ уже приступил к серийной сборке изделий, и исполнение обязательств по госконтракту на изготовление и поставку управляемых ракет „Вихрь-1“ для нужд Минобороны РФ не вызывает никаких опасений. Первая партия ракет уже успешно поставлена государственному заказчику», — заявил гендиректор концерна Алексей Криворучко, чьи слова привели в пресс-службе.

    Concern Kalashnikov deliver the first batch of Vikhr-1 missiles to Russian MoD according to contract. Ka-52 is finally getting its main armament. Maybe Vikhr-1 missiles will also find their use in Su-25SM3/UBM equipped with new SOLT targeting complex.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:05 am

    Coaxial helicopters are inherently mechanically more complex, so how much more maintenance heavy is the Ka-50-2 in comparison to the Mi-28? I imagine that it will be on the ground more than the Mi-28. Another disadvantage is that coaxial rotors weigh more as a system and that it doesn't provide adequate yaw control in auto-rotation, however, Kamov claims to have solved the yaw control problem. I'm inclined to believe them.


    I learned a great deal from the Mi-28 thread, especially from Werewolf's posts. I had no idea that other attack helicopters were so woefully protected. The cockpit glass of other attack helicopters have "transparency armor", which apparently doesn't even protect them from 7.62 rounds, but the cockpit glass of the Mi-28 is armored to withstand 12.7 mm rounds. It's incredibly foolish that other attack helicopters lack this level of protection.



    How heavy do you suppose that door is?

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:02 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:Coaxial helicopters are inherently mechanically more complex, so how much more maintenance heavy is the Ka-50-2 in comparison to the Mi-28? I imagine that it will be on the ground more than the Mi-28. Another disadvantage is that coaxial rotors weigh more as a system and that it doesn't provide adequate yaw control in auto-rotation, however, Kamov claims to have solved the yaw control problem. I'm inclined to believe them.

    From that research file from Kamov design bearau itself they have tested the aspect of co-axials in all aspects compared with conventional designs aswell with older Kamov helicopters such as Ka-25/27 to see the difference in capability and limitation.

    The overall design of a co-axial rotor layout is quite complex, due the double rotor sheme that has to work properly in the intended, plus overstretched stress limits to assure proper function. The complexity itself is that the design is a hollow structure of the first main rotor (lower) that has to be arranged in a way that a second rotor set can rotate in opposite direction without interference or reducing safety of structural strength or sub systems of the rotor parts. The design is relative solid based on the principle that both rotor sets with the lower being hollow and housing is oriantating to be structural supported by the inner (upper) rotor system and wise versa. That gives both the stability and structural support to work proper in an intented stressful environment, to be able to maneuver without breaking or must bumping.

    Anyway, the system is quite complex, but due the complexity of conventional helicopters in the sense of durability and safety issues they have with the tail rotor and most often with the tailrotor shaft which translates via gearboxes the momentum to provide counter torque and the high stress such in effecient design has on several sub parts as shafts, gearboxes and junctions and so on, it provides an uneasy way of maintenance. The number of parts that need to be inspected for proper function within limits is higher then on co-axial designs, despite one block of rotor set and gearboxes along with routine engine checks that recieve and are necessary as major maintenance in comparision with many more parts on conventional designs.

    Another thing about maintenance is that co-axial designs have two rotor discs, meaning the weight they lift is half the weight other single main rotor helicopters have to bear. That reduces the stress on the rotor blades and connections which extents the lifespan of such parts and makes maintenance easier. Co-axial designs also reduce stress of the disc load in forward flight, the higher the speed the more benefit you can notice of a co-axial design. In Hovering the Ka-50 for example puts a quite disadvantage on its own design, the lower set of rotors recieves a downwash from the upper blade, which reduces its effeciency to just roughly 10%. This effeciency is increasing with speed of the plattform and at speeds of 230km/h+ the negative downwash effect is almost entirely eleminated and the actual lift and speed increases and is only limited by the air friction and the left downwash on a very low surface of the upper fuselage body and lower blade. In strict theory of co-axial design the helicopter has no speed limits which conventional designs have, due the advancing and retreating blade issue, which creates an inbalance of lift and makes the helicopter tilt at certain speeds, which vary from design and makes the helicopter usually crash fatally.

    The Ka-50 for example like advertized by Kamov can bear flight worthiness for 14 days without major maintenance necessity. The Mi-24 does not need maintenance of major level of 3 days, in some cases in Chechnya a few rare examples flew without 5 days of major maintenance, just routine inspections due the bad logistics they had in first war. This are just of course figures under harsh environments, in actual case they inspect and maintenance the machines regularly for safety reasons and to keep the total failure or fatal failure of machines and subparts low to safe costs on spare parts.

    As for the part of yaw controls and autorotation. The co-axial design provides better stability in autorotation and does not necessarly have to rely on forward speed to keep itself stable, while in autorotation conventional designs that have lost engine power have a harder time to keep themselfs straight and stable on the way down, which is the key to sustain a high RPM at very low, almost flat angle of attack of the blades while having to keep the machine go forward to not allow it to tilt or to have to much force on main rotor to induce a torque so the helicopter rotates around itself. Kamovs co-axials have an reinforced structure to ensure better and more safety during yaws to the prohibited and limited angles such designs have. The first 4 or 6 helicopters have a slightly different internal concept which, i most probably couldn't differ myself, due the lack of actually being in physical contact with such designs, but they were limited in yaw which also killed Voraboyev test pilot which put it to its limits and tilted the helicopter in a maneuver over its limits which put the rotor discs to close to each other and collidated which ended fatally. The structure was reinforced and today in some videos of aerobatic you can see Ka-50/52 maneuvering very close or even above the limited yaw of 80° it was set for the prototypes. I hope i answered to what you meant by yaw limitations of co-axial designs. They still have them because the rotor design of Kamov is a flexible one to assure high maneuverability for Ka-50/52, meaning the both rotor discs come much closer to each other at Gpulls than S-97 for isntance which has a rigid rotor design which does not have great maneuverability and is trimmed for high speeds rather combat task requirements of maneuverability.

    I learned a great deal from the Mi-28 thread, especially from Werewolf's posts. I had no idea that other attack helicopters were so woefully protected. The cockpit glass of other attack helicopters have "transparency armor", which apparently doesn't even protect them from 7.62 rounds, but the cockpit glass of the Mi-28 is armored to withstand 12.7 mm rounds. It's incredibly foolish that other attack helicopters lack this level of protection.



    How heavy do you suppose that door is?

    It is rather a question of requirements and philosphy countries and armies pursue rather than a dogmatic question. That said there are dogmatics in war and that for aircrafts, the slower they are the higher amount of ground fire they are recieving, from peasant to high military degree, which makes such ground fire more effective then dedicated SAM/MANPADS due the number of available weapons that can be used as anti air and due the rather low distribution of SAM/MANPADS in comparision.

    The philosophy of the west (AH-1 and AH-64) were to trying to lift the unrivaled domination of soviet ground forces vs NATO ground forces which have been in quality and quantaty in favor for soviets 4:1, which CIA evaluation says from late 70-80's. The concept was to lift that issue for NATO ground forces by applying CAS/AT operations by air via helicopters use.

    The issue still remaint that soviet ground forces are accomanied by dedicated Anti Aircraft plattforms such as SHORAD/MANPAD equipped mechanized and motorized units aswell SPAAG in high numbers. The concept to avoid that was, to avoid the confrontation by itself and the entire layout was attempt to be trimmed in one direction of LOAL/Longbow capability in the later years.

    The early years however, they did never address that issue in the design of the helicopter in such a manner as soviets/russians did. Different philosophy, not really my job to judge it, but i would prefer the russian/soviet approach since majority of threats that have downed, damaged and occured on battlefields, old and modern are still projectiles of 7.62 and 12.7mm, increasingly more calibres are used in more intense wars above 12.7mm which are very lethal against any aircraft and even "highly" armored helicopters such as Ka-50 and Mi-28 do not have high survival expectancy once they have entered the effective envelope of such weapons.

    I think there is a big misconception going on among many people that hear or read often the advertizement of armored helicopters such as attack helicopters capable of surviving/sustaining 12.7mm and 23mm rounds. That are only cockpit and belly fuselage to center that can do that. The engines are less armored then the cockpit even tho they house a very vital part of the helicopter to assure functionality and therefore survival.

    The basic concept of helicopters, i will quickly and in an amateurish way depict to give you just a glance how the armor is distributed and for what reasons.



    I use Mi-24 as a sheme of explaining the, usually common approach of armoring attack helicopters, regardless of the design, except one...

    In color coded.

    Red, offers no protection or in limited amount kevlar layers that are only there to reduce the fragments spreading of HE-F projectiles to reduce the damaged they make to the structural integrity of the entire tail section and tail itself.

    Yellow, section is usally sufficient amount of protection that can be often translated to 7,62-12.7mm, however that is the average, not impressive not something you would discard for sure.

    Blue is proper protection such as gearbox, engines and an usually simple designed armor plate or cover that protects the tail rotor shaft from penetration from beneath aswell hydraulic and wiring to assure at least low amount of protection to the vital part of the tailsection. The entire tail section can not be armored due the weight limitations and especially that is an aircraft and needs a balanced plattform otherwise it will not fly at all. Therefore almost no attack helicopter offers any protection to the tail section especially after the dark red line where the actual tail begins.

    Green is a good amount of protection that usually has several layers to sustain the advertized 23mm projectiles and fragmentation.

    Purple, is the section that house more or less the core armor of the section to sustain the most amount of abuse they can recieve, titanium bathtub and steel/titanium plate for seperation of engines,gearbox and steel alloy to protect engines from outside along the usual aluminium alloy skin which is rated and has proven to sustain 12.7mm fire without problems.

    Helicopters, can not be armored entirely to sustain 12.7mm let alone 23mm+, that would make them as usefull as a 100+ ton tank, well protected immobile bunker that is object to even infantry with a nice package of explosives.

    I can not answer how much the door of the Mi-28 weights but the window is roughly 45mm (or 55mm) thick and roughly 0.8-0.9m² of surface, which makes the BP window weight more than 110-130kg. The door will weight quite some thing, however the door design is 3 layers of armor with quite an amount of air and padded with kevlar to protect wiring from fire of incendiary rounds or contents of warheads.

    According to mentions of ukrainian article of bulletproof glass which by design a glass-clad is what is used in military purposed armor transparency the weight of m² at 55mm is around 137kg, so that gives us a rough figure.

    Just a relative wild guess but i would think the door weights roughly 180-200kg, could be way off, but i don't have better figures.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:59 am



    Thank you a million times over, Werewolf for taking time out of your day to educate me on this. I can't thank you enough. I don't know how to feel; you've gone to such trouble. The grit-edged information you've provided is surprising; I really thought coaxial rotors would be significantly more maintenance heavy than a conventional rotor system and that it would weigh more. I've read elsewhere that coaxial rotors actually provide greater hovering performance over conventional rotors. Westerners love to think that we do everything to provide the greatest possible degree of protection whereas the Soviets [now Russia] were apparently not concerned about the well-being of their troops and that this was evident in their platforms.... but the opposite seems to be true; Russian platforms are better protected, more durable and are able to operate in any environment. Russian tanks have quite ingenious multiple layers of protection.

    I greatly appreciate you for committing so much time and effort into answering my flurry questions. You and Garry B are the best. thumbsup

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Militarov on Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:18 pm



    >.<

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:36 pm

    2 new Ka-52 delivered in Eastern Military District

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151124/1327311686.html&usg=ALkJrhjfe7cg2EHuL-iio8ocxHzENPCMuQ


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:24 pm

    Rogozin promised to double the release of Ka-52
    Russian Aviaton » Friday December 18, 2015 16:01 MSK

    Annual production of attack helicopters Ka-52 “Alligator” will double by 2017 taking into account the release version of the machine for naval aviation. This was stated by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said RIA Novosti .

    “Today we got acquainted with the progress of work on the ship version of our armored combat helicopter Ka-52. That was – made four helicopters in the framework of development work for our “Mistral” but we’re still going to do helicopter but at its shipyards. Therefore by 2017 production volume will increase up to 50 helicopters per year – in fact this doubling of production ” – said Rogozin.

    The factory “Progress” in Arsenyev (Primorye) which is produced helicopter Ka-52 received in 2011 a contract with the Ministry of Defense of 140 billion rubles for the supply of 143 units for the needs of the Air Force in 2020. To this must be added contract for 32 Ka-52K “Katran” deck version of the Ka-52 which was planned to be used on the amphibious assault ship of the “Mistral” and that with a high probability of be transferred Egypt who bought these ships. Egypt also ordered in 2015 an additional 50 helicopters Ka-52 in the standard version.

    According to the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in the period from 2008 to 2011 it was collected in Arsenyev 26 Ka-52 helicopters 2 of them experienced. In 2012 and 2013 the plant gave the Air Force for 21 helicopters in 2014 – 10 helicopters. In 2015 plan Ministry of Defense to supply – 16 units.


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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  franco on Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:09 pm

    According to the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in the period from 2008 to 2011 it was collected in Arsenyev 26 Ka-52 helicopters 2 of them experienced. In 2012 and 2013 the plant gave the Air Force for 21 helicopters in 2014 – 10 helicopters. In 2015 plan Ministry of Defense to supply – 16 units.


    That total of 26 aircraft from 2008-2011 would have to include the Ka-50's according to this blog's count;

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-572.html

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

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