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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

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    Austin

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:59 am

    I cannot see any photos Sad
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:16 pm

    You can't see psgs photos?

    I didn't have any in my post... though I will add some now to make it clearer.

    Austin

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:12 pm

    Nice explanation Garry , they did tried placing the multi-sensor ball just ahead of the rotor above the canopy but the vibration problem forced it to place it below the nose , yes they would need one for sensor for the gunner , unless the idea is to make the ka-52 a command helicopter/special ops helicopter where they would add a MMW SEEKER above the rotor and one of the guy will just track/designate the target and will pass it on to Mi-28 or Ka-50.

    I have a very nice article on IDAS for Mi-28/Ka-50 will post it on Monday
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    psg

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  psg on Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:10 am

    GarryB the bumps which you refer to, just before the wing tip pods must be the pylon attachment point? they will most likely carry air to air missiles? i remember reading in a article that the pylons where stressed to carry upward of 454kg each, is that still the same or have they been strengthened more? what will be the loading for the outboard pylons? will the manta dircm system be fitted?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:14 am

    unless the idea is to make the ka-52 a command helicopter/special ops
    helicopter where they would add a MMW SEEKER above the rotor and one of
    the guy will just track/designate the target and will pass it on to
    Mi-28 or Ka-50.

    The Russian MMW radar set for their attack helos has two components on the Hokum. The mast mounted antenna is the 360 degree air search radar in CM wavelength, while the MMW radar for ground targets is in the nose and has a field of view of something like 70-90 degrees forward.
    I assume they will put another ball on there somewhere for the pilot.


    GarryB the bumps which you refer to, just before the wing tip pods must
    be the pylon attachment point? they will most likely carry air to air
    missiles? i remember reading in a article that the pylons where stressed
    to carry upward of 454kg each, is that still the same or have they been
    strengthened more? what will be the loading for the outboard pylons?
    will the manta dircm system be fitted?

    454kg is a very strange figure... I would think they would stress it to take 500kg ordinance at least.
    A loaded 122mm S-13 5 shot rocket pod weighs 510kgs.
    Regarding the outer wing pylon I am thinking either this bump is where a pack of MANPADS AAMs are fitted (two or perhaps four pack) or the wingtip ESM pod is removed to fit the twin MANPADS AAMs.

    The turret positions are present for Manta so the aircraft shown is fitted for, but not with DIRCM at the moment.
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    medo

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:40 am

    I think Ka-52 doesn't need additional EO ball for pilot, because Ka-52, comparing to Mi-28, have a very big MMW radar in its nose, which for sure have terrain following mode and resolution of MMW radar is more than enough to show pilot all obstacles on radar screen. If pilot need TI picture, he for sure could see it on middle screen. In the time of flying, pilot could fly Ka-52 at night with radar and operator could still use other radar modes and EO ball. In the time of landing pilot could freely use EO ball, because in that time operator doesn't need it.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  psg on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:13 pm

    sorry GarryB my bad, i should of said upward of 580kg, she can carry fab 500 bombs and your right about s-13 loaded weight being more than 500kg, quick question what is the progress of the guided 80mm and 122mm rockets from ugroza?
    i think extra EO ball for pilot will be useful, extra pair of eyes when looking for targets.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:00 am

    I think Ka-52 doesn't need additional EO ball for pilot, because Ka-52,
    comparing to Mi-28, have a very big MMW radar in its nose, which for
    sure have terrain following mode and resolution of MMW radar is more
    than enough to show pilot all obstacles on radar screen.

    That is what I thought initially... but the field of view of the nose radar is only about 70-90 degrees which would make flying at night almost impossible... remember you need to see sideways to see branches and trees and stuff too.

    Perhaps they will expect the pilot to use night vision goggles as used in most helos at night... I have heard that the newest model is very good.

    BTW the Mi-28N has two radar antenna in its mast... a 360 degree CM wave radar for scanning for air targets and a 70-90 degree forward view antenna in MMW radar for scanning for ground targets. That is why the Mi-28Ns antenna is so big while the antenna for the Ka-52 above the rotors is so small... it is because the Ka-52 mast mounted radar antenna is a CM wave radar and its MMW radar is in its nose.
    With the change to Krisantema the Mi-28M might have a completely reprofiled nose with the ground search radar relocated in the nose like the Hokum, but I think it is better to keep the MMW radar antenna in the mast mount as the rest of the helo can remain behind cover.
    Night vision goggles for the pilot means he should be able to see things close to the aircraft and out to a reasonable distance to fly the aircraft while the gunner can use the radar to scan for targets and then use Flir and digital TV to zoom in and try to identify them optically. The radar will have a library of known target types and will be able to distinguish a tracked vehicle with a turret from a wheeled vehicle with or without a turret but whether it can determine exactly what target it has found is unlikely.

    sorry GarryB my bad, i should of said upward of 580kg, she can carry fab
    500 bombs and your right about s-13 loaded weight being more than
    500kg,

    No worries Smile I wonder how much those big boxes for UAVs weigh, and those drop tanks don't look light either.
    Also in the role of attack helo as the Ka-52 has been marketed so far the range of weapons it would need to carry is fairly limited... rocket pods and gun pods and ATGMs and bombs and KGMU submunition dispensors and mine dispensors etc etc, but now that they are buying the Mistral helicopter carriers I wonder what other weapons they might add to its armoury... Kh-31, Kh-35, Kh-38??? these might be too heavy.

    quick question what is the progress of the guided 80mm and 122mm rockets from ugroza?

    Have not heard anything... but very excited about the whole idea and concept. The thought of a Ka-52 with a 30mm cannon with 500 shells, plus 8-12 long range ATGM (HERMES/VIKHR) and 40 guided HE equipped rockets just makes this aircraft sound so cool. The Mi-28N with 300 rounds of 30mm ammo, plus 16 Krisantema or 8 HERMES, and 40 guided HE warhead equipped rockets is just as exciting.
    Just the flexibility... a 20 shot pod filled with guided HEAT equipped rockets for engaging APCs, plus 16 ATGMs for heavy armour, and 20 shot pod filled with unguided HE FRAG rockets for area targets like troops caught in the open plus a 30mm cannon with 300 rounds. The ATGMs will reach 8km targets and have 1250mm penetration capability, the guided rockets will be effective out to about 5-6km because they are guided and will penetrate 440mm which should be effective against light armoured vehicles.
    I guess it is just a question of getting aircraft able to guide the rockets into service and making sure they are cheap enough to use in large numbers.
    The advert I have seen for them suggests they can be used against tanks (an Abrams in fact), pillboxes and fixed ground targets, and aircraft (an Apache in this case), and it allows for the rocket to be fired ballistically at 40-50 degrees to get maximum ballistic range so the launching helo can stand off from the target and remain safer.
    The Ugroza kits for the big S-25 and S-24 rockets can allow for engaging targets at up to 10kms. Note the S-24 doesn't seem to be in service anymore and was a single 240mm HE warhead armed rocket with a payload of 125kgs which would ruin the day for most targets. The S-25 is a single shot rocket pod that has RPG-7 like rockets in the sense that the rocket sticks out the tip of the launcher and the rocket body is narrow with a large warhead sticking out the front. (40mm for the RPG-7 and 266mm for the S-25 rockets) The two warhead options for the S-25 so far are a HE warhead of 420mm calibre weighing 151kgs and a 340mm calibre Fragmentation warhead weighing 150kgs... the main difference is that the HE warhead has thin walls and lots of HE, whereas the Frag warhead has a smaller bursting charge of HE and thick steel fragmentation walls, so the former kills and destroys with blast and the latter with fragments to kill better protected targets.

    i think extra EO ball for pilot will be useful, extra pair of eyes when looking for targets.

    That raises another point... in the side by side seating arrangement communication is greatly improved, but at the cost of limitations on outside view with the person sitting on the left having reduced visibility to the right and vice versa.
    Strangely it means both crew will more likely be searching different areas which prevents both crew looking in the same places while ignoring other areas, and I think the improved crew communication is well worth it too.
    I guess we should wait for the final in service production model... they have shown versions with a periscope type mount.

    I have also heard that the setup with a stereoscopic view projected into a helmet mounted display can actually make you feel sick because the brain has problems accepting the view it is receiving either because of the short delay in the turret following fast head movements or the spacial difference between the view the pilot sees through the HMS from the nose of the aircraft and the real world he can also see. Some 3D computer games make me feel sick when I play them so I can understand the potential problem... but an unobstructed nose of the aircraft all weather day/night view would be awesome... ripping along at 250km/h at low level in terrain following autopilot a few metres above the ground!!!

    Austin

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:BTW the Mi-28N has two radar antenna in its mast... a 360 degree CM wave radar for scanning for air targets and a 70-90 degree forward view antenna in MMW radar for scanning for ground targets.

    I dont think that the case , the radar antenna on this mast is a MMW radar and they do not scan for air targets as Mi-28N is not a dedicated AWACS Smile

    It does ground tracking and high resolution of target , well in theory it can scan air targets as well just the question of signal processing and software changes.

    That is why the Mi-28Ns antenna is so big while the antenna for the Ka-52 above the rotors is so small... it is because the Ka-52 mast mounted radar antenna is a CM wave radar and its MMW radar is in its nose.

    It would depend on the type of antenna and the antenna gain , if Ka-52 has a better designed antenna which would mean gain (dB) then it would do a better job at it with low power.

    Its really hard to say just by looking at the antenna of Mi-28N and Ka-52 to say which is better , unless you have the specs of both to compare.

    BTW both are MMW antenna AFAIK.

    This is what i found on Arbalet Radar from B Harry , B Harry is no more with us and we lost him 2 years back , God Bless his Soul , RIP !







    Nice Write Up http://defesasaereas.blogspot.com/2010/07/kamov-ka-52-o-destruidor-predador.html


    Last edited by Austin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Austin

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:04 pm

    I think you are right Garry ,the rotor radar is L band radar and Nose is MMW radar , from the link about i posted

    The KA-52 is equipped with the system Phazotron-NIIR Arbalet FH-01-52, which is composed of two radars, the Arbalet millimeter wave which is mounted on the nose of the vector for surface mapping, threat detection in surface and chief Shooting for the air-surface weapons and L-Arbalet decimetre wave that is allocated on the main rotor having the function to detect aerial threats, warning of an approaching missile, head shot for the air-air weapons and detection training dangerous weather, and without a similar radar in production in its category, surpassing the Almaz-025 N-280 MI-28 N and AN/APG-78 AH-64 D-range detection and blocking, image sharpness and precision

    The Arbalet can perform mapping of the soil in an area of 32 km, detecting a bridge 25 km, 12 km from an MBT and a vehicle to 8 km.The system also detects obstacles on the ground and tells the crew and the navigation system, which corrects automatically route and altitude. Inclinations of 10 ° on the ground are detected at 1.5 km and power lines to 0.4 km. The search for Arbalet angle is 120 ° azimuth and the system can track up to 20 targets simultaneously.

    The L-Arbalet can detect a fighter 15 km and a Stinger anti-aircraft missile type to 5 km, this sensor operates primarily as self-protection sensor working in conjunction with the vector systems countermeasures. The Arbalet-L has an angle of 360 search azimuth and ± 30 ° vertically, when a target is locked your search field is limited to ± 60 ° ± 30 ° azimuth and elevation, and can follow 20 targets simultaneously.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:40 pm

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    medo

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:52 pm

    Thank you for pictures of radar for Ka-52 helicopter. Although it have mechanical antenna it could still be very capable. Considering the size of Ka-52 nose, I expect a radar with larger antenna. Maybe radar for serial helicopters have some differences comparing to prototype, but expecting radar with any kind of ESA antenna, like a derivate of V004 radar from Su-34, would be too optimistic and too expensive.

    Interesting is a statement for air-to air missile control for Arbalet radar. IR guided missiles don't need any radar control, what could give an idea, that this radar could work with medium range AA missiles with SARH (R-27) or ARH (R-77). Anyway, combining radar and EO system, Ka-52 is very capable machine against air and ground targets.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:19 am

    I dont think that the case , the radar antenna on this mast is a MMW
    radar and they do not scan for air targets as Mi-28N is not a dedicated
    AWACS

    First of all you have to be careful because there are two Arbalet radar systems, both are designed for helicopters, but one is for attack helos like the Ka-52 and indeed the Ka-50 and the Mi-28N/M, and the other is for the Ka-32 naval helo in a chin position for spotting people in the water, aerial targets, ships etc.

    The radar for the Attack helos has two components... a 360 degree air search CM wave radar that can spot an incoming stinger missile at 5-6km, and a ground searching MMW radar for scanning ground targets that can spot large things like bridges up to 25km and tanks at 10km or so. MMW radar is relatively short range and is actually effected by bad weather, but not as badly effected as optical frequencies. CM wave radar is used for air surveillance because it has much longer effective range.
    In the Mi-28N the thimble nose is for a separate radio transmitter used to guide ATAKA and Shturm ATGMs and although it operates at about 35 GHz it is not a MMW radar. The MMW radar and the CM wave radar in the Mi-28N is located in the large ball above the main rotor.
    On the Ka-52 the MMW radar is mounted in the nose and the CM wave radar is mounted in the very small flat ball above the main rotors.

    [qutoe]Its really hard to say just by looking at the antenna of Mi-28N and
    Ka-52 to say which is better , unless you have the specs of both to
    compare.[/quote]

    I was under the impression are both getting the same system... they are just positioning the antennas in different places.

    The Mi-28N was supposed to get a radar from NIIP ( http://www.niip.info/ ) but they had lots of problems with it and as far as I know they cancelled it and were adopting the radar for the Hokum.
    With the M model they are also dropping the large flat drum with the TOR EO system for the gunner too and might get something like that fitted to the new Ka-52s or perhaps something else.
    I suspect the MMW radar component on the Hokum would be too large to go into the ball of the Mi-28N as a complete unit so I suspect the ball will just contain the antennas and that the electronic boxes will take up the internal space with all the avionics where extra crew can be carried in emergencies.
    Another alternative would be to fit the radar into the revised nose of the Mi-28M and use those aircraft as the radar equipped versions...

    Of course they might have solved the problems with the NIIP radar and are still intending to use it, but it doesn't seem to be mentioned on their website: http://www.niip.info/

    Thank you for pictures of radar for Ka-52 helicopter. Although it have
    mechanical antenna it could still be very capable. Considering the size
    of Ka-52 nose, I expect a radar with larger antenna. Maybe radar for
    serial helicopters have some differences comparing to prototype, but
    expecting radar with any kind of ESA antenna, like a derivate of V004
    radar from Su-34, would be too optimistic and too expensive.

    Actually NIIP are a sub company of Almaz-Antei so they should have lots of experience with PESA antennas. Even the apuelet (spelling) radar could be a basis for a new design for helos perhaps?

    Interesting is a statement for air-to air missile control for Arbalet
    radar. IR guided missiles don't need any radar control, what could give
    an idea, that this radar could work with medium range AA missiles with
    SARH (R-27) or ARH (R-77). Anyway, combining radar and EO system, Ka-52
    is very capable machine against air and ground targets.

    The main problem for air to air missiles is altitude and speed. An R-73 would be a 10-15km ranged missile launched from a helo and even the long range R-27ET would have very limited flight performance launched at low level at low speed from a helo... maybe 30km... for a weight of 350kgs. Of course it would come as a heck of a shock for the average fighter expecting an easy kill suddenly finding a missile closing in on them when they thought they were safe.
    The R-27T and R-27ET would be an enormous advantage against another helo and a very nasty surprise against a fighter.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:17 am

    Some Great Photograph

    http://ablogin.ru/category/aviation/

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:42 am

    Here is another position where they tried to keep the multisensor ball , reportedly it faced vibration issue as it was too close to rotor

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:22 pm

    All in all, Ka-52 is excellent attack helicopter equipped with very modern ESM, radar, EO system and armament. When Ka-52 will work in combination with Mi-28N, I think tanks and other ground targets will be on Mi-28N duty, while Ka-52 will do target search, air protection and it could also do SEAD missions against enemy ground forces air defense, specially against SHORADs, which protect armor units on the move. In that way Ka-52 could clear the way for Mi-28N to do the job against armor vehicles and other ground targets. It is better suited for that job, because Mi-28N have stronger armor than Ka-52.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:05 am

    AFAIK the Ka-52s will be used for recon missions and as a result will replace the Mi-2 in service in that role.

    The Ka-52 is much better armed and armoured and also much better equipped with regards to electronics than the Mi-2 ever was.

    Of course the Mi-28 and other assets on the battlefield will be part of a network where all platforms can add to the threat picture so in a sense they will all be recon assets.

    The difference is that the Ka-52 is properly equipped with recon equipment and includes air launched disposable UAVs that can be sent ahead into known danger areas to search for targets and threats.

    I kinda get the feeling that the Ka-52 will be spotting targets for all platforms including aircraft like the Mi-28 as well as land based missile vehicles like HERMES.

    Obviously they will also have an attack function but I feel that with lots of Mi-28s in the Russian Army it will be the Russian Navy that uses the Hokum as an attack/recon platform the most from their Mistral carriers.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:05 am

    The purchase of Mistral has come as a real boom to Ka-52 platform ,As far as russian army goes they had decided to opt for Mi-28N as their main attack helicopter and Ka-52 got sidelined but small production run was requested for special ops reco role ,iirc the old figure it was 30 odd for Ka-52 and 100 plus for Mi-28N.

    Now with 4 Mistral being purchased ,Ka got a new lease of life as they do have the expertise to make choppers for navalised environment , so there are talks of 80 to 100 odd Ka-52 being purchased for Naval role as Attack/Reco chopper.

    Which is good for a fan of both choppers like me , they both had their unique design advantage and would have been pity to let one go , now its both so happy me attack
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:08 am

    An interesting new photo of a Ka-52 with the large central under nose ball turret, plus a small turret next to it for the pilot I would suspect.
    You can tell from the HUD that the small ball is on the pilots side.

    Most interesting is the small turret under the belly of the aircraft next to the main undercarriage leg which seems to be an operational DIRCMs turret (the other turret is mounted opposite next to the other main wheel leg on the other side of the belly of the aircraft)...



    BTW I too am happy that both helos are getting an opportunity to get into service as in many ways they are different enough to be complimentary. The coaxial rotor of the Hokum makes it better for naval use and for use in high altitudes, while the commonality of the Havoc with the Hind mean money can be saved in the transition from one aircraft to the other... and it can probably do the job cheaper than a Hokum can.

    Hopefully the Mistral purchases will be good for the Ka-60 and Ka-226 as well.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:19 pm

    This helicopter have number 062, so it is the second prototype, which have small EO ball from the beginning. DIRCM balls are interesting, because if I remember correctly, they are different as the ones which this prototype have at the beginning.

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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:22 pm

    Do they carry Internal RF Jammers ? I hope they get a nice DRFM internal jammers and this seems to be tuned for Special Ops mission.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:33 pm



    Ka-52 cockpit.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Sun May 22, 2011 6:51 pm

    http://dv.rian.ru/army/20110522/82010128.html

    Four new Ka-52 helicopters send to air base in Russian Far East. To the end of 2012 they will have a whole regiment of Ka-52 stationed in that air base.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:12 pm

    That lighting and the black background of the cockpit in your photo Medo suggests the cockpit of the Ka-52 is optimised for night vision goggles.

    I would suspect the gunner/weapon operator might have HMD sights for thermal stereo views of outside the helo and data displayed in his field of view, while the pilot will likely have conventional NVGs perhaps with a data field displayed showing altitude and speed and compass points etc.
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    Re: Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:03 pm

    http://www.militaryparitet.com/perevodnie/data/ic_perevodnie/1675/

    Naval version of Ka-52 will be equipped with modified Zhuk-AE AESA radar from Fazotron-MIIP, originally for Mig-35, which will enable Ka-52 to use Kh-31 and Kh-35 anti-ship missiles. First prototype radar will be build in 2012.

    Fazotron-NIIP also deliver mechanically scanned radars Arbalet to Progress plant to install in standard Ka-52 and first 4 Ka-52 were delivered in May this year.

    In my opinion if naval Ka-52 could use Kh-31 anti-ship missile, than could also use Kh-31 anti-radar missile. Maybe Zhuk AESA radar could be used in air to air mode and I wouldn't be surprised if it will carry R-77 AAM.

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