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    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:10 am

    Smile What TR-1 and Medo said... Smile

    They are combined optical and radar warning receivers to detect enemy radar emissions or incoming missiles from the front.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:The other option is that it carries UAVs that are released vertically downwards and controlled by the gunner to scout ahead, perhaps into a dangerous valley to find targets while the helo remains somewhere safe. The box can carry about 6-8 UAVs in each pod and each UAV is a flying wing with cameras used to fly into areas that are too dangerous to take the helo but can be used to find targets and even mark targets with lasers for engagement by other platforms like Krasnopol etc.

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:27 am

    Just looking at the ZALA website I suspect the pod is the spare parts and tools pod.

    The UAV pod looks much wider as seen in this page here:

    http://zala.aero/en/1280152087/1280151953.htm
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:Just looking at the ZALA website I suspect the pod is the spare parts and tools pod.

    The UAV pod looks much wider as seen in this page here:

    http://zala.aero/en/1280152087/1280151953.htm

    You mean its actually real? Cool. Sure sounds like a crazy ol' idea though
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:49 am

    Totally real.

    Each wing mounted pod probably carrys between 6 and 8 UAVs based on the Zala flying wing design and the Ka-52 can release a UAV and I presume the gunner will direct the UAV forward into dangerous airspace and fly it around looking for targets to either mark with a laser, or to simply record their coordinates and mark them on a map for the Helo to fire upon from a safe distance. The UAVs are disposable, though you could fit them with a small charge and fly them into an enemy target and after finding targets it could fly into one to end its mission.

    Fits perfectly into the Ka-52s recon strike mission role as the first ground assets to stand out will be ground based threats trying to take out the UAVs. When they open fire then follow the smoke trails and muzzle flashes...
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:53 am

    Well real or not it is pretty much certain as of today no such capability has been tested on the Ka-52.
    I am hoping for a modern ATGM before anything so fanciful.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:59 pm

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 081770

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 081765

    Source of photos: www.russianplanes.net
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    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:18 pm

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzo

    Let's play this identification game again.

    I am guessing the 2 items in the red circle are flare/chaff dispensers, but I could be wrong.
    The thing in the blue circle may be a communication antennae, but I am not sure. It is also to be found on the Mi-28 (but on the dorsal side, rather than ventral).
    The thingies in the yellow circles are still unidentified.
    We know the goodies in the purple circles are the President-S DIRCM systems against MANPADS.
    The one in the green circle may simply be a folding light. But I am unsure.
    We are still unsure about the antennae on the wingtips in the brown ovals. Also I thought the pod like things on the wingtips were for flare dispensers (just like the Mi-28, but I am probably wrong on this one.

    Your input will be appreciated



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    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:26 pm

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzgb

    Further to the component identification game:

    The round object circled by red is a MAWS. Are they installed on this particular helicopter?
    What is the one circled by Yellow? Is it another MAWS?
    What are the sensors/optics in the main circular and rotating pod in blue?



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    Post  medo on Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:56 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzo

    Let's play this identification game again.

    I am guessing the 2 items in the red circle are flare/chaff dispensers, but I could be wrong.
    The thing in the blue circle may be a communication antennae, but I am not sure. It is also to be found on the Mi-28 (but on the dorsal side, rather than ventral).
    The thingies in the yellow circles are still unidentified.
    We know the goodies in the purple circles are the President-S DIRCM systems against MANPADS.
    The one in the green circle may simply be a folding light. But I am unsure.
    We are still unsure about the antennae on the wingtips in the brown ovals. Also I thought the pod like things on the wingtips were for flare dispensers (just like the Mi-28, but I am probably wrong on this one.

    Your input will be appreciated




    I think two antennas in red circle are for radio/radar altitude measurement between helicopter and ground.
    Antenna in blue circle is the same as on Mi-28N and I think it is TACAN antenna.
    In green circle is landing light.
    The right wingtip in brown oval have chaff/flare dispensers as the left one and in front it have laser warning receiver (LWR).
    Antennas in yellow circles as well as antenna in front of left wingtip are still unknown.
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    Post  medo on Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:05 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzgb

    Further to the component identification game:

    The round object circled by red is a MAWS. Are they installed on this particular helicopter?
    What is the one circled by Yellow? Is it another MAWS?
    What are the sensors/optics in the main circular and rotating pod in blue?




    In front Ka-52 have together both RWR and MAWS (red circle) and MAWS in front (red circle) is the same as MAWS in back (yellow circle), but back RWR is more behind and you could see it at the line of yellow circle. Ka-52 have 4 RWR and 4 MAWS sensors, left and right in front and left and right in back. IOt also have 2 LWR sensor, one front looking in right wingtip and one back looking under the tail.

    In the blue circle is EO ball with TV and thermal imager, laser range finder and laser guiding channel for missile guiding.
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:49 pm

    Medo is on the ball for most of them, I believe the optronics turret is the GOES-451.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:05 am

    Well real or not it is pretty much certain as of today no such capability has been tested on the Ka-52.
    I am hoping for a modern ATGM before anything so fanciful.

    Actually I would say the opposite... what is the point of introducing 20km range Hermes ATGMs if the current sensors on the Ka-52 and Mi-28N can't detect and identify targets properly at that range?

    A target detected in real time can be engaged right away, remember the Hermes is related to the Pantsir-S1 so its flight path is controlled via radio command... so approaching an enemy held valley a Ka-52 can launch a small UAV and send it into that valley on a scouting mission to find targets... it is small and relatively quiet and when it finds targets it can use its own location and a laser rangefinder to determine the precise coordinates of any threats it detects within that valley... whether it is a group of tanks sitting parked, or a few air defence vehicles looking for targets or whatever... once those targets are detected, identified and marked on the digital map on the Ka-52 the crew can decide what to do... first it will transmit new recon data to HQ and other friendlies in the area... so a friendly brigade in the next valley will suddenly see the enemy units appear on their map displays. The Ka-52 might deal with some of the targets itself launching a volley of Hermes missiles into the valley with MMW radar homing seekers for armoured targets, anti radiation seekers for enemy radar targets, or simply IIR/TV terminal homing with Glonass to get it close enough to the target so it can see the vehicles that need to be engaged.

    Without the UAV capacity it would need to fly to the edge of the valley and pop up for a few seconds while its radar scanned, which makes it vulnerable to attack and lets the enemy know they have been spotted.

    In COIN warfare there might be a much higher flying Air Force UAV finding targets and marking them on maps and passing that data to Ka-52s. It is all together possible that those Ka-52s might have conserved their ammo and flown that UAV into the next valley and continued to find more targets while HQ assigns a unit of Mi-28s to take out the targets found, or perhaps a high flying UCAV might deal with the targets using satellite guided KAB-50s or Kornet-EM missiles. The threat found might have been a TOR battery or a BUK battery and several volleys of Hermes missiles might be ordered from a rear area from a truck carrying 40 missiles with a range of 80kms.

    An Artillery battery might be tasked with dealing with the SAM site from 60km away using sensor fused submunition rockets.


    Regarding the photos the photo looking from directly below the red circle is the dopplar radio altimeter, which is a backup to the barometric altimeter and the Glonass altimeter. The dopplar radio altimeter is low powered and only operates within a few hundred metres from the ground... which is where you want the most accuracy. At higher altitudes it will use barometric or air pressure altimeter which gives height above sea level and is an indicator rather than a precise measure. Glonass should give better accuracy than Barometric and comparable to radio in most instances, though radio is the best when close to the ground.

    Antenna in blue circle is the same as on Mi-28N and I think it is TACAN antenna.

    I thought Tacan, but then I thought the fact that it is mounted low and high, front and rear on the Mi-28N that it might be a new IFF antenna.

    In green circle is landing light.

    And there appears to be another landing light next to the large blue EO turret under the nose (above in terms of the photo... on the actual helo it would be next to it).

    I agree regarding the wingtip pods, they have optical sensors in the front of one but a square antenna at the front of the other. Inside each pod will be chaff and flare launchers.

    In the photo from the side I again agree with Medo.

    If you look at the side photo to the rear just above the horizontal fin with the end plate you can see a thin fin sticking out the top that matches the thin fin sticking out the bottom as shown on the belly shot circled in Blue.

    The leads me to further suspect that this might be a new IFF system, while the rounder projections circled in yellow on the first pic might be the TACAN system.

    Nice pics BTW... thanks for posting them.

    In many ways these can be considered operational prototypes with different models fitted with different equipment like the PAK FA, because I really don't think either the Mi-28N or the Ka-52 are fully complete operational aircraft yet... though the Ka seems closer than the Mil, but I expect both of them to be very capable systems when fully ready and fully equipped.

    Would like to hear more progress on Ugroza laser guidance kits for unguided weapons as I think this would be a significant step forward in fire power and capacity. For area targets then unguided rockets are ideal, but against point targets like MRAPs or even MG or sniper or ATGM positions being able to fire a single rocket 5-6km to hit a point target would be very useful when firing from a pod with 20 rockets rather than using an ATGM that is designed to penetrate a metre of armour. In fact I think the ability of a helo with 4 rocket pods with a total of 80 rockets able to take out say 60-70 trucks would probably do more to stop an attack than that same helo taking out a small group of infantry and 8 armoured vehicles with 8 ATGM and 40 unguided rockets.

    medo
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    Post  medo on Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:51 pm

    Ka-52 have standard Russian IFF triangle antennas in front of cockpit and under the LWR in back and also Mi-28N, Mi-35M and new build Mi-8 have standard IFF antennas as well as those big square antennas, which are most probably TACAN antennas, which now also become standard equipment in Russia.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:26 am

    I think you might be right regarding the IFF antenna Medo. Smile

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 0_54b310

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 0_55f910

    Here are two photos showing Mi-28Ns with their landing lights on as an example regarding the landing lights on the Ka-52.

    And here is one light folded back and turned off:

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 0_83b311

    To the right of the picture.

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 03887610

    Both are visible here and both face forward when deployed and you can see they are like car headlights.

    And this is about the best shot I have seen of the main EO ball turret:

    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 0_63de10
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:02 am

    The embedded flash animation showing the Ka-52 using the Zala UAV is on the Russian language page for the UAV:

    http://zala.aero/ru/uavs/1284011154.htm
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    Post  Austin on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:07 am

    AFM Ka-52 : Gator Hatching in Russia's Far East

    http://www.mediafire.com/?y25kd958zetwx2d
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Well real or not it is pretty much certain as of today no such capability has been tested on the Ka-52.
    I am hoping for a modern ATGM before anything so fanciful.

    Actually I would say the opposite... what is the point of introducing 20km range Hermes ATGMs if the current sensors on the Ka-52 and Mi-28N can't detect and identify targets properly at that range?

    A target detected in real time can be engaged right away, remember the Hermes is related to the Pantsir-S1 so its flight path is controlled via radio command... so approaching an enemy held valley a Ka-52 can launch a small UAV and send it into that valley on a scouting mission to find targets... it is small and relatively quiet and when it finds targets it can use its own location and a laser rangefinder to determine the precise coordinates of any threats it detects within that valley... whether it is a group of tanks sitting parked, or a few air defence vehicles looking for targets or whatever... once those targets are detected, identified and marked on the digital map on the Ka-52 the crew can decide what to do... first it will transmit new recon data to HQ and other friendlies in the area... so a friendly brigade in the next valley will suddenly see the enemy units appear on their map displays. The Ka-52 might deal with some of the targets itself launching a volley of Hermes missiles into the valley with MMW radar homing seekers for armoured targets, anti radiation seekers for enemy radar targets, or simply IIR/TV terminal homing with Glonass to get it close enough to the target so it can see the vehicles that need to be engaged.

    Without the UAV capacity it would need to fly to the edge of the valley and pop up for a few seconds while its radar scanned, which makes it vulnerable to attack and lets the enemy know they have been spotted.

    In COIN warfare there might be a much higher flying Air Force UAV finding targets and marking them on maps and passing that data to Ka-52s. It is all together possible that those Ka-52s might have conserved their ammo and flown that UAV into the next valley and continued to find more targets while HQ assigns a unit of Mi-28s to take out the targets found, or perhaps a high flying UCAV might deal with the targets using satellite guided KAB-50s or Kornet-EM missiles. The threat found might have been a TOR battery or a BUK battery and several volleys of Hermes missiles might be ordered from a rear area from a truck carrying 40 missiles with a range of 80kms.

    So what you are saying is that with the aid of UAVs, a Ka-52 will be able to launch missiles 'around corners' so to speak; without the Ka-52 having a direct line of sight to the enemy vehicles? It's an intriguing idea at least for me; I'm sure that it's well-debated and discussed in the defense industry of course. How will the missiles be guided around terrain; by the Ka-52 or with their own sensors/algorithms? Is it only possible with the Hermes or with the Khrizantema, Kornet, Metis, etc... too? Is such a capability feasible for current vehicle-launched and man-portable AT missile systems? If so it could give a potential great extension to the capabilities of the T-90 series, Sprut-SDs, Khrizantema ATGM vehicles and Kornet launchers.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:10 am

    So what you are saying is that with the aid of UAVs, a Ka-52 will be able to launch missiles 'around corners' so to speak; without the Ka-52 having a direct line of sight to the enemy vehicles?

    What I am saying is that the Hermes-A guided missile that will be a weapon used by the Ka-52 is described by its makers as a multi purpose guided weapon that has two distinct guidance phases... one to reach the target area using inertial and/or radio command guidance, and the second terminal guidance with self homing for targets from 15 to 20km range as shown on the table on this page:

    http://kbptula.ru/eng/multi/hermesa.htm

    Guidance options described for the terminal phase include IIR/TV, MMW radar, Glonass, and SALH.

    It's an intriguing idea at least for me; I'm sure that it's well-debated and discussed in the defense industry of course. How will the missiles be guided around terrain; by the Ka-52 or with their own sensors/algorithms?

    The Ka-52 will have terrain maps in its navigation systems and will know the rough terrain around it, so when it flys a UAV over a hill into a valley and starts looking for targets, when it finds those targets it can use a satellite receiver on the UAV to determine its location and the angle and range to target using a laser rangefinder on the UAV to determine the precise location of the target and pass that information back to the Ka-52 to be added to its map and sent up to HQ.

    The Hermes missile is directed to the vicinity of the target area using command guidance in the same way an SA-19 is flown towards an enemy air contact being tracked by Tunguskas tracking radar. Once the Hermes has reached this calculated point in the sky somewhere above and short of the intended target, its terminal guidance is activated, which in the case the target is an armoured vehicle could be MMW radar or IIR, or the UAV might mark the target with a laser for the purposes of engaging the target. If the target is a building then Glonass coordinates might be sufficient to hit a room.

    The most complex algorithm required is to determine where the target is in relation to the helos current position and to generate a flight path that results in the missile flying directly towards where the target is from a height that will clear all known obstacles. If the target is 18km away then a lofted trajectory should allow it to gain maximum range and energy and avoid any objects between the helo and the target like a small hill or even a mountain range.

    Is it only possible with the Hermes or with the Khrizantema, Kornet, Metis, etc... too? Is such a capability feasible for current vehicle-launched and man-portable AT missile systems? If so it could give a potential great extension to the capabilities of the T-90 series, Sprut-SDs, Khrizantema ATGM vehicles and Kornet launchers.

    The current model Krizantema AFAIK uses radio command guidance based on target information generated from the launch platforms radar. It also has a backup laser beam riding guidance option for targets that don't stand out on radar like a log bunker, or a specific window in a building. Kornet is also laser beam riding and Metis uses wire guidance so none of them could be used in this way as they are. Using an auto tracker accuracy could be greatly improved but they need a forward looking seeker to find the target or reflections from the target to be used in this way. Obviously with the Ka-52 hidden from the target there is no way is can guide a laser beam riding missile or a command guided missile all the way to the target... it could guide it to a point where it should be able to see the target... like it does with the UAV, but there needs to be some terminal homing mechanism like a foward looking optical sensor that can find and lock on to the target. One good example of this would be SOKOL which has optical guidance but could be directed to a target with a laser, so a T-80U firing a Sokol round over a hill in radio communication with a laser marking team when the missile clears the hill and the cover over its optical sensor falls away the laser marker team lases the target and the Sokol round detects the target with the laser mark of a specific frequency and duration and then gathers that point to the centre of its field of view and flys towards it till impact even if the laser marking ceases as it will continue to autotrack the impact point even if it starts to move.

    So while it would not work with unmodified Krisantema, Kornet or Kornet-EM, or Metis, it should work fine with SALH rounds like Krasnopol and Kitolov and Gran, where a Ka-52 itself could mark targets with a laser, or it could stay out of view of the enemy and launch UAVs to mark the targets with lasers.

    If the enemy forces are inspected and offer little threat to the Ka-52 it could as easily fly over that hill and use its map with the visible threats marked on it to directly engage targets... rather than having to scan to find targets it could direct its optics and radar directly to the target location and do a short scan to ensure they are still there and engage them with missiles, rockets and guns.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:47 pm

    Will the Ka-52 have a cannon turret just like the Mi-28 and not the inconvinient fuselage mount?
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:47 pm

    Will the Ka-52 have a cannon turret just like the Mi-28 and not the inconvinient fuselage mount?
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:34 pm

    No plan to move it- the upside of the installation is it makes ammunition feed easier + is a very "stiff" mount, in a good way. That cannon is really too much for a turreted installation I have heard some say, and the lack in horizontal view is compensated by the Black Shark's superb ability to dance on the horizontal axis while maintaining forward momentum.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:21 am

    Pretty much what TR-1 said.

    The 30mm 2A42 is a very powerful cannon and it has significantly more recoil than most other weapons attached to modern helos.

    The main advantage of the coaxial design is that because three main rotor blades are quite heavy and the coaxial design uses the momentum of one set of blades over the other to yaw or turn the nose sideways the Hokum can actually yaw its nose rapidly and precisely and in a much wider range of the flight envelope than most other helos.

    For your average helo the tail rotor gets leverage from being at the tail of the aircraft, but at high forward speeds the effect of the tail rotor is very low and it really only has a decent effect at very low speeds or the hover.

    As such a helo like the Havoc or Apache for that matter need a proper turret to use the gun effectively and independently of the direction the helo is flying.

    On the Hokum however the yaw of the coaxial design is effective at much higher speeds so they decided to mount the gun near the centre of gravity where its recoil has much less effect on the helo (ie throws it around the least) and so while it looks like a problem it actually makes the gun much more accurate and the aircraft a more stable firing platform.

    The twin 30mm GSh-30K cannon throws the Mi-24 around when it fires, but that is also to do with that guns high rate of fire.

    I have seen footage of Mi-28s firing their cannons with little obvious stress, but to answer your question the gun on the Hokum is unlikely to be shifted as it works well where it is.
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    Post  medo on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:46 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzo

    Let's play this identification game again.

    I am guessing the 2 items in the red circle are flare/chaff dispensers, but I could be wrong.
    The thing in the blue circle may be a communication antennae, but I am not sure. It is also to be found on the Mi-28 (but on the dorsal side, rather than ventral).
    The thingies in the yellow circles are still unidentified.
    We know the goodies in the purple circles are the President-S DIRCM systems against MANPADS.
    The one in the green circle may simply be a folding light. But I am unsure.
    We are still unsure about the antennae on the wingtips in the brown ovals. Also I thought the pod like things on the wingtips were for flare dispensers (just like the Mi-28, but I am probably wrong on this one.

    Your input will be appreciated




    Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 08465710

    Here is a picture of new FSB specially modified Mi-8 helicopters. It have the same antennas as the one you marked with yellow circle. I assume those antennas are kind of radar or radio jammer. It make sens to have a jammer as part of ESM suite for defense against AMRAAMs.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:08 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Ka-52 in Russian Air Force - Page 7 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzo

    Let's play this identification game again.

    I am guessing the 2 items in the red circle are flare/chaff dispensers, but I could be wrong.
    The thing in the blue circle may be a communication antennae, but I am not sure. It is also to be found on the Mi-28 (but on the dorsal side, rather than ventral).
    The thingies in the yellow circles are still unidentified.
    We know the goodies in the purple circles are the President-S DIRCM systems against MANPADS.
    The one in the green circle may simply be a folding light. But I am unsure.
    We are still unsure about the antennae on the wingtips in the brown ovals. Also I thought the pod like things on the wingtips were for flare dispensers (just like the Mi-28, but I am probably wrong on this one.

    Your input will be appreciated






    The red circle marks the Radio Altimeter, when im right its the same version like on Ka-50 wich is the DISS-32-28 Doppler Sensor
    The blue circle marks the UHF-Antenna wich is the R-868 UHF tranceiver
    The brown circle are EW pods i guess for passive jamming, still couldn't manage to find out how they are named and the parameters.
    The yello circle are indeed Tacan, but coulnd't manage wich manufactor build it and how they call them.
    The rest is known

    What i believe is that the brown circled EW pods are not necessarily needed for the UAV controll, maybe the Zala-412-08 pods have their equipment already implemented in front and rear radom?
    But that would also bring few disadvantages with it, in emergency situation pilot maybe would need to discard it and its not a cheap equipment.
    But i am not sure for the EW pods/UAV controll system.

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      Current date/time is Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:43 pm