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    Egyptian Air Defense Forces

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    ahmedfire

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    Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:33 pm

    hello everybody
    my first thread here Laughing
    my ques. about > pechora 2M VS F35 fighter ???
    anyone has any technical informations about that ?




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    GarryB

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:57 am

    Very hard question.

    Enormous number of variables involved.

    Biggest... who is operating the F-35 and who is operating the Pechora 2M.

    With the right passive sensors and the right tactics almost anything could be shot down, but then any fixed target can be overwhelmed too.
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:41 am

    GarryB wrote:Very hard question.

    Enormous number of variables involved.

    Biggest... who is operating the F-35 and who is operating the Pechora 2M.

    With the right passive sensors and the right tactics almost anything could be shot down, but then any fixed target can be overwhelmed too.
    ok ,,egypt operates pechora 2M and israel will operate f 35 soon..!
    do u think that the stealth technology on f35 will be enough to overcome and beat pechora 2M??
    and what about harm missiles against pechora 2M ??

    thanx....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:23 am

    Well first thing is first, any conflict between Egypt and Israel and you can kiss goodbye all of those American military toys you operate like the tanks and aircraft, because in any conflict with Israel the US will side with Israel no matter who started it.

    Having said that the upgraded Pechora can engage targets as small as 0.2 m square. I would expect any exported F-35s wont even have the RCS of US F-35s let alone their F-22s so the system might be able to engage... particularly from the side or rear from a reasonable distance.

    The real issue is mobility. Pechora was not mobile at all in its original version which means it could be located by satellite and both engaged by assets on SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defence) missions and avoided by aircraft attacking targets.

    The upgraded version has alternative optical guidance plus it is more mobile. Obviously a mobile system that sits in one place for years without practise of moving is no better than a fixed system.

    Egyptian forces need to practise moving and train properly to get the most out of the system. Ironically the fact that the system is based on the SA-3 and looks ancient is an advantage though it limits how far the system can be upgraded, it also means that it will be underestimated too.

    The best defence from attack is to have the ability to attack right back and be able to hit the enemy harder than they can hit you.
    SAMs are nice, but ISKANDERs would be better.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:24 am

    Best thing to do against any Israeli F-35s would be to make sure they don't even know where they are because first thing Israelis always do is do SEAD spam so you can dream about your other Air-defenses later. It won't be inconceivable that they'll start their SEAD ops with low-flying Helis to kill your Radars, which I think you can beat by camping mediocre air defenses near them, such as ZU-23-2 or any of their missile bearing variants, near your radars to protect them against Apaches and their sorts. As Garry says, export F-35's will have a larger all-aspect RCS then the one's we're buying for ourselves. However, considering that the Home-built F-35 we're getting will have an RCS of about -30 dbs or .001 m2 on the Front aspect, you can assume that the Exports will have a bigger one, maybe .01 m2. In that case, the SA-3 would relatively close to the F-35, and due to the relatively low kinetic performance of the F-35, that wouldn't be much of a problem (unless the Israelis plan to supercruise everywhere). So, place your Gun-based AAs close to your radar assets to protect against Helis, SA-3s and other Missile based SAMs farther out but only fire when the signal is strong, consistent, and you are damn sure it's actually a F-35.

    Of course, if you do manage to shoot down the F-35, maybe Carlo Kopp will just stroke off all the articles he has written against the F-35 and banter to us for F-22s. If enough crap gets thrown around, maybe we'll actually restart production and development of the Raptors, and if we do sell Raptors to Israeli, just buy S-400s, and lots of them.
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well first thing is first, any conflict between Egypt and Israel and you can kiss goodbye all of those American military toys you operate like the tanks and aircraft, because in any conflict with Israel the US will side with Israel no matter who started it.

    Having said that the upgraded Pechora can engage targets as small as 0.2 m square. I would expect any exported F-35s wont even have the RCS of US F-35s let alone their F-22s so the system might be able to engage... particularly from the side or rear from a reasonable distance.

    The real issue is mobility. Pechora was not mobile at all in its original version which means it could be located by satellite and both engaged by assets on SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defence) missions and avoided by aircraft attacking targets.

    The upgraded version has alternative optical guidance plus it is more mobile. Obviously a mobile system that sits in one place for years without practise of moving is no better than a fixed system.

    Egyptian forces need to practise moving and train properly to get the most out of the system. Ironically the fact that the system is based on the SA-3 and looks ancient is an advantage though it limits how far the system can be upgraded, it also means that it will ben uderestimated too.

    The best defence from attack is to have the ability to attack right back and be able to hit the enemy harder than they can hit you.
    SAMs are nice, but IsKANDERs would be better.
    why we goodbye things like f16 and abrams m1a1,,f16 we have aplnt to it's engines and with cooperation with turkey we will manfacture it's weapons,, M1A1 we manfacture it (70% of it) and planning to reach 100% soon..we have also mirage 2000 and mirage 5 and mig 29 and upgraded f7 ,mig 21,,su35 (soon),, and we will manufacture our own fighter (jf17) with cooperation with pakistan and china...
    by the way egyptian engineers found the programs that controls the f16 by satellite and they solve all problems ,,as aresult america refuse to give us f15 and amraam!!

    already we have alot of army trainings and maneuvers > so there is no prblem here, we use the equipments as professionals...

    take this link ,it talk about some s300 components putted in egyptian pechora 2M ..
    http://www.snariad.ru/pvo/pecera/
    by the way we have acomplex air defences,,we manufacture AMOUN system with cooperation with italy,we have patriot pac 3 and there are negtiations to get s300 and s400,,we have alot of sam's,,we manufacture other systems...

    this pictures show the egyptian air defences in 1973 war..



    israel pilots said that there is no region in the world full of airdefences like this region in 1973 war..israel airforces can't do anything in that war,,we hit down 300 israel aircraft...but now we are modernize and complxed than past... santa
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:08 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:Best thing to do against any Israeli F-35s would be to make sure they don't even know where they are because first thing Israelis always do is do SEAD spam so you can dream about your other Air-defenses later. It won't be inconceivable that they'll start their SEAD ops withlow- flying Helis to kill your Radars, which I think you can beat by camping mediocre air defenses near them, such as ZU-23-2 or any of their missile bearing variants, near your radars to protect them against Apaches and their sorts. As Garry says, export F-35's will have a larger all-aspect RCS then the one's we're buying for ourselves. However, considering that the Home-built F-35 we're getting will have an RCS of about -30 dbs or .001 m2 on the Front aspect, you can assume that the Exports will have a bigger one, maybe .01 m2. In that case, the SA-3 would relatively close to the F-35, and due to the relatively low kinetic performance of the F-35, that wouldn't be much of a problem (unless the Israelis plan to supercruise everywhere). So, place your Gun-based AAs close to your radar assets to protect against Helis, SA-3s and other Missile based SAMs farther out but only fire when the signal is strong, consistent, and you are damn sure it's actually a F-35.

    Of course, if you do manage to shoot down the F-35, maybe Carlo Kopp will just stroke off all the articles he has written against the F-35 and banter to us for F-22s. If enough crap gets thrown around, maybe we'll actually restart production and development of the Raptors, and if we do sell Raptors to Israeli, just buy S-400s, and lots of them.
    thanx for informations ,,can you explain the meaning of( camping mediocre air defenses) ??
    i think we protect radars very well and make good mobility to systems ..

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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:37 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:Best thing to do against any Israeli F-35s would be to make sure they don't even know where they are because first thing Israelis always do is do SEAD spam so you can dream about your other Air-defenses later. It won't be inconceivable that they'll start their SEAD ops with low-flying Helis to kill your Radars, which I think you can beat by camping mediocre air defenses near them, such as ZU-23-2 or any of their missile bearing variants, near your radars to protect them against Apaches and their sorts. As Garry says, export F-35's will have a larger all-aspect RCS then the one's we're buying for ourselves. However, considering that the Home-built F-35 we're getting will have an RCS of about -30 dbs or .001 m2 on the Front aspect, you can assume that the Exports will have a bigger one, maybe .01 m2. In that case, the SA-3 would relatively close to the F-35, and due to the relatively low kinetic performance of the F-35, that wouldn't be much of a problem (unless the Israelis plan to supercruise everywhere). So, place your Gun-based AAs close to your radar assets to protect against Helis, SA-3s and other Missile based SAMs farther out but only fire when the signal is strong, consistent, and you are damn sure it's actually a F-35.

    Of course, if you do manage to shoot down the F-35, maybe Carlo Kopp will just stroke off all the articles he has written against the F-35 and banter to us for F-22s. If enough crap gets thrown around, maybe we'll actually restart production and development of the Raptors, and if we do sell Raptors to Israeli, just buy S-400s, and lots of them.

    A very good reply. One thing we haven't discussed is the ability of Israel to deploy SLAM [Stand-Off Land Attack Missile] agianst high value assets like Radar installtions; in this case Egyptians may have trouble tracking/hitting them with SA-3///
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:16 am

    ahmedfire wrote:
    thanx for informations ,,can you explain the meaning of( camping mediocre air defenses) ??
    i think we protect radars very well and make good mobility to systems ..


    By that I meant putting your kinda good air defenses near your radars to protect them, especially your bigger radars, the ones that you can't move. By kinda good air defenses I'm referring to ZU-23-S or MANPADS that you guys have.

    nightcrawler wrote:
    A very good reply. One thing we haven't discussed is the ability of Israel to deploy SLAM [Stand-Off Land Attack Missile] agianst high value assets like Radar installtions; in this case Egyptians may have trouble tracking/hitting them with SA-3///

    Well, Israelis don't exactly operate the SLAM yet (although Turkey does :O), and if they did, the SA-3's the Egyptians have have Anti-cruise missile capabilities. Even though the SLAM has a range of over 240 km, it still travels at subsonic speeds and at a relatively low altitude, although, not low enough to avoid radar detection, which would mean that a SA-3 could catch it in the right circumstances.

    Although, I don't have a very current knowledge on Egyptian Air Defense equipment, and Wikipedia isn't helping at all, so it would be nice to know what type of SAMs you guys have besides SA-3s and ZU-23-S.
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:40 am

    Although, I don't have a very current knowledge on Egyptian Air Defense equipment, and Wikipedia isn't helping at all, so it would be nice to know what type of SAMs you guys have besides SA-3s and ZU-23-S.
    i'll give you what i know,,,

    # sinai 23:it has 6 eagle eye systems and 2 cannons and the system is fixed on M113 armored personnel carrier..

    # tyer elsabah : egyptian version of SAM 2 (tyer elsabah has new good speed and engage radar)


    # AMOUN system: egyptian self product with cooperation with italy: it's upgraded version of sky guard..(we sell some of it to kuwait that used in gulf war and succeeded to hit the iraq cruise missiles unlike patriot pac 2 that can't do that)..


    # HAWK 2,3




    #chaparrel system...


    # crotale system



    # patriot pac 2,3 from america



    # SAM 2,3,6 and 9....
    sam 6 (igla)


    # BUK M (russia)


    #Tor M1(upgraded)



    #SLAMRRAM...


    #pechora 2M...



    #for the cannons > we have alot of types that we manufacture like ZU-23s and more...

    #we have avery good collection of radars >2d and 3D and we use c4i to connect and integrate all these systems ...we have alsi airborne planes(E2c)...

    # negotiations to get s400 and su 35....

    what do you think now?





    Last edited by ahmedfire on Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:56 pm

    i have aquestion here Embarassed
    the radar of pechora 2m is VHF radar and can detect aplane from 50 miles !! so what is the point here ? i have aradar that can detect atarget from 50 miles but the rocket of pechora has only 35 km range???
    how can i take the advantage of the 50 miles when i have only arocket with 35 km???
    or using data link btween radar of battery and another far missiles ??
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:18 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Although, I don't have a very current knowledge on Egyptian Air Defense equipment, and Wikipedia isn't helping at all, so it would be nice to know what type of SAMs you guys have besides SA-3s and ZU-23-S.
    i'll give you what i know,,,

    # sinai 23:it has 6 eagle eye systems and 2 cannons and the system is fixed on M113 armored personnel carrier..

    # tyer elsabah : egyptian version of SAM 2 (tyer elsabah has new good speed and engage radar)


    # AMOUN system: egyptian self product with cooperation with italy: it's upgraded version of sky guard..(we sell some of it to kuwait that used in gulf war and succeeded to hit the iraq cruise missiles unlike patriot pac 2 that can't do that)..


    # HAWK 2,3




    #chaparrel system...


    # crotale system



    # patriot pac 2,3 from america



    # SAM 2,3,6 and 9....
    sam 6 (igla)


    # BUK M (russia)


    #Tor M1(upgraded)



    #SLAMRRAM...


    #pechora 2M...



    #for the cannons > we have alot of types that we manufacture like ZU-23s and more...

    #we have avery good collection of radars >2d and 3D and we use c4i to connect and integrate all these systems ...we have alsi airborne planes(E2c)...

    # negotiations to get s400 and su 35....

    what do you think now?




    Well to be fair to my people, AMOUN shot down a UAV with a Sparrow 7M, it was only a test fire, unlike the Patriot which saw real action in real combat conditions against multiple targets, so we didn't do that bad.

    http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Skyguard_AMOUN_Scores_Direct_Hit_In_Live_Missile_Firing_Using_Raytheon_Upgraded_Launcher_999.html


    As for my evaluation of the Egyptian Air Defenses now, I think you'd do fine against export F-35s and SLAMs. The combination of Buks, Tors, SLAMRAMs, etc, would create a nice thick net of no-go zone for Israeli planes. Just remember to keep your electronics fresh and new, your people nice and trained, because all the Israelis need to know are where your high-value Air-defense assets are (your Buks, Tors, Patriots, etc), and you can kiss them bye bye. A Zu-23-S, no matter how much missiles you put it on them, will do no good against the F-35.


    ahmedfire wrote:i have aquestion here Embarassed
    the radar of pechora 2m is VHF radar and can detect aplane from 50 miles !! so what is the point here ? i have aradar that can detect atarget from 50 miles but the rocket of pechora has only 35 km range???
    how can i take the advantage of the 50 miles when i have only arocket with 35 km???
    or using data link btween radar of battery and another far missiles ??

    Creating a data link between radar and farther off missiles would put your Radar assets in danger of an Anti-radiation missile strike. Typically, a stealth plane flying over your skies will know when they are being illuminated with radar. They will usually not care for it, however. They will care for it when the plane tells them you have fired an SARH missile, which would allow them time to maneuver, deploy decoys, etc. With the 50 mile maximum detection range, you'd have much less range to actually detect a stealth aircraft. Still, however, if the enemy doesn't think you're engaging them yet, let them get closer, so your missile has less time to impact, and thus, they'd have less time to maneuver. That extra detection range is there just so you can get your stuff ready or notify your peers so they can get a shot too.
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:05 pm

    Well to be fair to my people, AMOUN shot down a UAV with a Sparrow 7M, it was only a test fire, unlike the Patriot which saw real action in real combat conditions against multiple targets, so we didn't do that bad.
    i don't mean that pac2 failed in gulf war,,no it was good but in some accidents of failure was reported about pac 2 and kuwait leaders used the skyguard to hit the cruise missile because it has high mobility and gun with missiles,,they just preferred it,, take this link about patriot in gulf war
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/755/The-debate-surrounding-the-success-or-failure-of-the-Patriot-PAC2-missile-
    ..............
    As for my evaluation of the Egyptian Air Defenses now, I think you'd do fine against export F-35s and SLAMs. The combination of Buks, Tors, SLAMRAMs, etc, would create a nice thick net of no-go zone for Israeli planes. Just remember to keep your electronics fresh and new, your people nice and trained, because all the Israelis need to know are where your high-value Air-defense assets are (your Buks, Tors, Patriots, etc), and you can kiss them bye bye. A Zu-23-S, no matter how much missiles you put it on them, will do no good against the F-35.
    yeah,,electronics always fresh,always there are upgrades...
    you are right about zu-23-s ,but we only use it to protect radars ..
    ........................
    Creating a data link between radar and farther off missiles would put your Radar assets in danger of an Anti-radiation missile strike. Typically, a stealth plane flying over your skies will know when they are being illuminated with radar. They will usually not care for it, however. They will care for it when the plane tells them you have fired an SARH missile, which would allow them time to maneuver, deploy decoys, etc. With the 50 mile maximum detection range, you'd have much less range to actually detect a stealth aircraft. Still, however, if the enemy doesn't think you're engaging them yet, let them get closer, so your missile has less time to impact, and thus, they'd have less time to maneuver. That extra detection range is there just so you can get your stuff ready or notify your peers so they can get a shot too.
    we use C4I to integrate all airdefences...
    very good comment,,thanx man for informations,seems u are expert.. Cool
    sorry if may english not good,,it's my second languadge... Embarassed
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  nightcrawler on Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:23 pm

    Creating a data link between radar and farther off missiles would put your Radar assets in danger of an Anti-radiation missile strike.

    Need more clarification plz??
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:24 pm

    Oh, sorry for the late reply.


    What I meant was that a datalink between farther off Radars and TELs would be bad as all an enemy would have to do is see/know where you're illuminating them with and your stand off radars could then be hit which would make your TELs useless as they'd have no radar to guide them.

    It'd be smarter (but more costly) to use TELARs like the TOR instead, as you'd won't have to depend on stationary or mobile platforms for your radar purposes but simply on your own vehicle.
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    SOC

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  SOC on Thu May 03, 2012 12:25 am

    Have any images of the Egyptian Buks ever surfaced?
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Wed May 23, 2012 4:46 pm

    SOC wrote:Have any images of the Egyptian Buks ever surfaced?







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    SOC

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  SOC on Wed May 23, 2012 5:34 pm

    Those are all SA-6 Kub/Kvadrats, I'm looking for SA-11s!
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    George1

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:25 pm

    Εgypt coyld be an important market for Russia air defence systems since sa-6, sa-75, s-125 systems are obsolete for modern fighters
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:33 pm

    SOC wrote:Those are all SA-6 Kub/Kvadrats, I'm looking for SA-11s!
    Oh ,sorry i didn't see your comment




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    GarryB

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:32 am

    Oh ,sorry i didn't see your comment

    Hahahahahaha... SOC will still not be pleased... that is SA-17... Twisted Evil 

    Nice pictures though... thank you for posting. Smile


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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:50 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Oh ,sorry i didn't see your comment
    Hahahahahaha... SOC will still not be pleased... that is SA-17...  Twisted Evil 

    Nice pictures though... thank you for posting.  Smile
    Oh sorry Embarassed  , i really confused about some SAMs pictures , i'll search again Smile 
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    SOC

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  SOC on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Oh ,sorry i didn't see your comment
    Hahahahahaha... SOC will still not be pleased... that is SA-17...  Twisted Evil 

    Nice pictures though... thank you for posting.  Smile
    No! Look at the radar on the TELAR, those are Buk-M1-2s and therefore SA-11Bs.

    Thanks for the images though, haven't seen those before.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:52 am

    Oh sorry Embarassed , i really confused about some SAMs pictures , i'll search again Smile
    Sorry my friend... I was just being silly... SA-11/SA-17... only SOC would notice the difference... Twisted Evil 

    Thanks for the photos and please feel free to post them as you get them.

    I do hope Egypt will prosper and develop in a healthy and positive way for Egyptians. Very Happy 


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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Egyptian Air Defense Forces

    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Oh sorry Embarassed  , i really confused about some SAMs pictures , i'll search again Smile
    Sorry my friend... I was just being silly... SA-11/SA-17... only SOC would notice the difference...  Twisted Evil 

    Thanks for the photos and please feel free to post them as you get them.

    I do hope Egypt will prosper and develop in a healthy and positive way for Egyptians. Very Happy 
    Oh , i took my breath again Smile thanks Garry and thanks Soc .

    But why the missiles above have different nose color " white and red " , is the white one belong to BUK-M1 and the red for BUK-M2 ?

    Photos for TOR-M1 and BUK ,SA-2 Guideline ,SAM-6 and pechoram2

















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