Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Top 5 dogfights in history

    Share

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  nightcrawler on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:36 pm

    Top 5 dogfights in history


    Dogfights are forms of aerial combat between fighter aircraft or a manoeuvrings combat at short range, where each side is aware of the others presence. Dogfighting first appeared during World War I, shortly after the invention of airplanes, and has since become a component in every major war. However it was believed that after World War II, high tech combat aircraft with greater speed and longer range weapons would make dogfighting obsolete.

    Modern terminology for air-to-air combat is air combat maneuvering (ACM), which refers to tactical situations requiring the use of individual basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) to attack or evade one or more opponents. This differs from aerial warfare, which deals with the strategy involved in planning and executing various missions.

    Here is a list top 5 famous dogfights in history:

    1 - F-15 vs Mirage F1 in Gulf War (1991)

    The Persian Gulf War (August 2, 1990 – February 28, 1991), commonly referred to as Gulf War, was a war waged by a U.N – authorized coalition force from thirty-four nations led by the United States and United Kingdom, against Iraq.


    The Persian Gulf War started with an extensive aerial bombing campaign on 17 January 1991. The aerial combat mission was called Operation Desert Storm and the F-117 Stealth bombers aimed precise laser- guided bombs at key targets in Baghdad. The first priority for Coalition forces was the destruction of the Iraqi air force and anti-aircraft facilities. The United States immediately began a mobilization to the area by sending 48 McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagles.

    F-15C, D and E models were also deployed in support of Operation Desert Storm where they proved their superior combat capability with a confirmed 26:0 kill ratio. F-15 fighters accounted for 36 of the 39 Air Force air-to-air victories. The F-15′s were used against the Mirage F1 and they achieved a high kill ratio.


    F-15Es were operated mainly at night, hunting SCUD missile launchers and artillery sites and also hunting the Iraqi Aircrafts that included Antonov An-12 ‘Cub’,Dassault Mirage F1 and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG 21MF ‘Fishbed-J’.

    -

    -2 - A6M Zero vs Spitfire/Seafire

    The Spitfire/Seafire and the A6M Zero were two of the most recognizable and iconic fighters of World War II.The “ZERO” was one of the best dogfighters of WWII. In a 1 on 1 it could out-turn and out-climb anything the allies had in the beginning of the war.Though these two aircrafts were constructed for very different purposes, the Seafire were used to fly from carrier decks and Zeros were being used as ground-based interceptors and suicide bombers.




    The Seafire had already proven itself during the Battle of Britain whereas the Zero gave the Japan air superiority at the beginning of WWII until the better developed Allied planes came along.

    During WW2, dogfight was changed to “bounces” and quick-passes,boosted by team tactics. Maneuverability as in rate of turn was still an important asset, but fighters with powerful engines could run away,or climb their way out of an unwanted dogfight.This is why the biplane fighters,even thought they were more maneuverable than monoplanes, vanished from air combat during WW2. And this is how the American F4F Wildcats,later replaced by the better armored and faster Hellcats,achieved their victories against the nimble Zeros.

    A superior dogfighter than the early Allied fighters, the Zero was able to out-maneuver its opposition. To combat this, Allied pilots developed specific tactics for dealing with the aircraft. These included the “Thach Weave,” which required two Allied pilots working in tandem, and the “Boom-and-Zoom,” which saw Allied pilots fighting on the dive or climb. In both cases, the Allies benefited from the Zero’s complete lack of protection as a single burst of fire was generally enough to down the aircraft.

    During the course of the war, over 11,000 A6M Zeros were produced. While Japan was the only nation to employ the aircraft on a large scale, several captured Zeros were used by the newly-proclaimed Republic of Indonesia during the Indonesian National Revolution.

    3 - F-4 Phantom II vs Mig-17 in the Vietnam War(1965-73)


    This historical aerial combat between American and North Vietnamese aircrafts was witnessed in the Vietnam war.This dogfight included the strengths and weaknesses of the two most iconic combat aircrafts in the Cold War.These aerial dogfights were mostly fought over the jungles of North Vietnam.

    The F-4 Phantom II obtained outstanding results in the war and although it had its disadvantages in size,weight and maneuverability when compared with the MIG-17,the F-4 comprehensively defeated the MIG-17 “Fresco” in a series of battles in 1972.


    Tactics such as “lag pursuit”(aggressively manoeuvrings the F-4 outside the MIG’S turning circle and using its superior speed to achieve a firing range) gave pilots a real advantage over their opponents.


    The F-4 Phantom II, was considered a lethal combat aircraft and became a successful weapon during the Vietnam War by maintaining the best kill ratio over North Vietnamese jets. The Phantom was a large fighter aircraft with a top speed of over Mach 2.

    4 - PAF F-86 Sabres vs IAF Gnat (1971 Indo-Pak War)

    This aerial combat began on 22 November, 1971, several days before the formal start of hostilities. The first encounter was so dramatic and happened in full view of so many ordinary people on the ground that it would endure in public memory as one of the most vivid moments of the war.

    The scene of action was in the eastern sector, a few minutes flying time away from Calcutta, the largest Indian metropolis in the east. The provocation was the repeated intrusion by groups of PAF F-86 Sabres into a salient inside Indian territory. This salient called Boyra was being used by Bangladeshi Mukti Bahini guerrillas to launch attacks inside East Pakistan. The Pakistani Army in the east had reacted angrily by launching a full scale attack in that sector but had had to beat a retreat after losing 13 tanks and many men. The job of messing up the Mukti Bahini was given to the PAF Sabres which began crossing into Indian territory, strafing the area and slipping back into Pakistani air space. The IAF had to get them while they were in Indian air space. The window was small: barely a couple of minutes wide, and the PAF fighters had to be intercepted over a 3 km wide corridor surrounded on three sides by Pakistani territory.

    Four IAF Gnats were ordered to scramble at about 2:49 pm on 22 November to take on four Sabres strafing the Indian territory. The Gnats got three Sabres. The IAF formation leader, Flight Lieutenant R. Massey; Flight Lieutenant M. A. Ganapathy and Flying Officer D.Lazarus each got one Sabre. One Sabre crashed into a pond in Chaugacha on the East Pakistani side of the border, while the other two went down over Indian territory. Flt. Lt. Parvez Mehdi Qureshi and Fg Offr Khalil Ahmed, the two PAF pilots who ejected over India were captured and produced before a crowded press conference the next day. The action was splashed in newspaper front pages all over the country and the three pilots who scored hits became national heroes overnight. This encounter set the tone of the air battles that were to follow. News of the incident and the famous gun camera shots were splashed across newspaper headlines the world over and the tiny Gnat acquired a reputation of being the Sabre killer.

    The IAF’s primary interceptor continued to be the Folland Gnat, a tiny but highly maneuverable aircraft that had been passed over by its British manufacturers. The Gnats flew the highest number of sorties during the war.

    The PAF’s mainstay was the F-86F Sabre, which was in service with many NATO countries although it belonged to a line that had been in production since the time of the Korean War. The Sabre was an excellent aircraft and had been substantially modified over the years to keep up with evolving Soviet combat aircraft. The Indians rated the Mirage-III as the best PAF fighter but that aircraft was not seen as much as it was hoped. The IAF, despite its superiority in numbers, knew it would be a tough fight but was fully prepared for a no-holds barred contest.


    5 – Arab MIG-21s vs Israeli Mirage IIICJs

    The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 was the Mach 2 successor of the subsonic MiG-9, the transonic MiG-15 and MiG-17 and the supersonic MiG-19, just as the Mirage III had evolved from the subsonic Ouragan, the transonic Mystere and the supersonic Super Mystere. Of all the Mach 2 fighters developed in the early 1950s, the MiG-21 and the Mirage III had more in common than any other pair. They were
    created over a similar time-frame in a development process that shared many concepts – both were expected to overcome propulsion weakness through light weight and fine-tuned aerodynamics.

    As a result, the MiG-21 and the Mirage III had comparable performance, despite the latter boasting a delta wing while the Soviet fighter had both a delta wing and a conventional tailplane. The Israeli Mirage IIICJs engaged Arab MiG-21s at least 25 times between July 19, 1964 and June 10, 1967. Some of these encounters were only fleeting, while others evolved into fully blown air combat.

    Victories were claimed or credited during 17 of these engagements.The participation in a successful air combat was no guarantee that an individual pilot would achieve a kill credit. The MiG-21-to-Mirage IIICJ combat loss ratio was 16:1. Around 22 of the 23 MiG-21 kills credited to Shahak(Mirage) pilots in 1966-67 were claimed with cannon – the other victory was a “no weapon” maneuver kill. Conversely, three of the five Shahaks lost to MiG-21s during the same period fell to “Atoll” AAMs.


    The remaining two were again “no weapon” kills – one jet was downed by the debris from an exploding MiG-21 and the other ran out of fuel. The fact that the Shahak boasted two cannon and adequate ammunition gave the jet a real advantage over the MiG-21 during the 1960s, as AAM technology was still then in its infancy. The MiG-21 and Mirage IIICJ were perhaps the most closely matched Mach 2 fighters to have ever gone head-to-head in combat. Nevertheless, the French machine emerged the clear victor with an air-to-air kills-to-losses ratio of 6-to-1, and a total combat losses ratio of 16-to-1 thanks to the Shahak’s superiority in air-to-air weaponry.


    Top 5 dogfights in history | Defence Aviation



    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15458
    Points : 16165
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:12 am

    What a shock... Top 5 dogfights in history and no mention of any dogfights that don't involve western aircraft...


    This is like the Discovery Channel program about the worlds top ten tanks of the world that includes the Sheridan!!!!

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:14 am

    Well, it is from a Western source, and Western dogfights are well documented and easily accessed. If you have a quarrel with it, I'd suggest you find some good ole' Soviet-German dogfights, preferably exciting ones and ones where the Soviet guy wins (German aces just couldn't stop scoring). Be sure to provide lots of documents to add to the proof that such an awesome dogfight took place.

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:40 am

    I be glad if someone tell me some Russian military channels (if any) I can try to search them at youtube.
    I can only access to History Military channel & some Nat Geo documentaries

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15458
    Points : 16165
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:37 am

    German Aces had the experience advantage and most of those numbers were gained in wiping out the air forces of Europe like Poland and France etc etc.
    When Germany invaded the Soviet Union the vast majority of Soviet planes destroyed were destroyed on the ground.

    I would suggest however some of the most heroic dogfights involved pilots of I-16 Polikarpovs knowing that the BF-109 was already superior to their aircraft (Known from the Spanish civil war) that took off anyway to try to stop the German bombers.
    When they ran out of ammo... if they survived long enough to run out of ammo they even tried destroying enemy aircraft by ramming.

    It wasn't till 1943 that the Soviet Army could really start relying on its airforce to remove the enemy aircraft from their path but there was certainly plenty of scope for air combat.

    Ignorance is hardly an excuse. If you are not even going to consider dogfights which don't include western aircraft then call it what it is... the Top 5 western dogfights.
    BTW the top ACE of Korea was not an American pilot and there were plenty of Russian pilots that made ACE in jets... but lets ignore that.

    It is like the Documentary channel program of the worlds best helos... they mention 6 US helos, a German helo and a British helo.

    No wonder most Americans think they make all the best stuff, because they never hear about anyone elses.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:41 pm

    Well go ahead then, list and describe some Soviet dogfights.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15458
    Points : 16165
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:11 pm

    If I were to bother putting together a documentary that claimed to describe the 5 top dogfights of all history then I might bother finding out about as many dogfights as I could before I decided how to rate them and work out the top 5.

    The fact that I am not in the documentary making business suggests I have not bothered to look at any of the dogfights listed let alone any others that might or might not be better.

    It is clear that you are interested... why don't you search beyond www.f16.mil and www.f15.mil and simply present the accounts of 5 dogfights that don't involve only western aircraft from WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Perhaps you will learn something... or perhaps not.

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:58 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:Well go ahead then, list and describe some Soviet dogfights.
    Garry why dont you just answer the simple question???

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15458
    Points : 16165
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:34 am

    The top 5 listed dogfights above are those that have been researched and documented.
    The fact that they were documented is what made them make the top 5.

    There are plenty of Russian fighter pilot memoirs that have never been translated into English and because I do not read or speak Russian there is a barrier between me and the stories you are talking about.

    Should it be up to me to find out about such things because someone on a forum wants to know, or should they look it up themselves?

    Or will they... like the makers of the top 5 list find there are few english sources for dogfights that didn't take place in the west and just give up and not bother doing their job?

    Personally if I was compiling a list of the top dogfights in history I would make an effort to do more than just read the available stories written in English.

    The only book I have read about Soviet pilots was a book about a pilot of an Il-2. A fascinating read, but no dogfights.

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:31 pm

    Wow you dont speak/read Russian; aren't you Russian
    & my question still stands

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-25
    Location : California, USA

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:39 pm

    So no dogfights?

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15458
    Points : 16165
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:37 am

    No, it seems the History channel are correct that there was no a single dogfight on the eastern front during the entire WWI and WWII.

    And that even though the highest scoring pilot in the Korean war was fighting on the Chinese side there were no pilots from the other side with interesting dogfight stories, because clearly they don't dogfight. Their kills were clearly achieved through meditation and good take off and landing skills.

    Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    Sponsored content

    Re: Top 5 dogfights in history

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 11:10 am


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:10 am