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    Russian Military Reforms

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    ekacipta021292
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    Russian Military Reforms

    Post  ekacipta021292 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:58 pm

    RIA Novosti - 12:30 31/10/2010

    Russia's Armed Forces will undergo three stages of transformation before their reform is over by 2020, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said on Sunday.

    The minister said the first stage involved organic staff measures.

    "We have actually completed these measures. We have cut the strength of personnel to 1 million who will comprise 150,000 officers, 100,000-120,000 professional sergeants while the rest will be conscripts," Serdyukov said in an interview with Vesti Nedeli TV program.

    Serdyukov said the second stage involved social issues and the third phase dealt with the issues of armament.

    "Armament supplies are quite a long process. We have divided it into two parts. At the first stage, which will last until 2015, modern armaments in our army must comprise no less than 30% while this figure must increase to 70% by 2020," Serdyukov said.

    The defense minister said the year 2020 was expected to see the end of military reform in Russia.

    MOSCOW, October 31 (RIA Novosti)

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20101031/161152980.html

    Too early to set a target anyone?

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:03 am

    Looks like contracts are thrown out the window except for sergeants and operators. Can't afford to pay a decent salary when you can get a conscript to do it for nothing.


    Last edited by Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total

    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:19 am

    You have to set targets... that is how you work your way towards goals.
    It also means you can measure progress and identify problems.

    The problem is that some see plans as set in stone and think a plan has failed if things need to be shifted or changed, or a deadline is not met.

    ekacipta021292
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  ekacipta021292 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:01 am

    GarryB wrote:You have to set targets... that is how you work your way towards goals.
    It also means you can measure progress and identify problems.

    The problem is that some see plans as set in stone and think a plan has failed if things need to be shifted or changed, or a deadline is not met.


    Agree... I don't mean the timing target though, but the personnel target.

    I think it is not the correct moment to estimate the personnel target in the reform yet, as the economy is disastrous.
    The target they set is pessimistic, maybe due to lack of financial incentives (as Medvedev said) in recent years.

    I just think if they set this target the reform won't do much, Russia will still be trapped in conscription by 2020, or even worse?

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:36 am

    I think it comes down to the armed forces.

    If service becomes repetition marching up and down and extreme discipline with bad food and boredom and bullying then young men are not going to want to join and mothers will not want their sons to go join.

    If the military can offer education and adventure (and I don't mean wars, I mean travel and working with new technology and a bit of excitement) and in many ways to help a boy become a man by teaching them to look after themselves and get fit and learn some discipline without unnecessary violence then I think they will have a lot less problems getting volunteers.

    Conscript armies are not bad as such as long as they are defence armies that protect the native country. It is when conscript armies go to war in other countries like the US in Vietnam or Soviet Soldiers in Afghanistan where those who are there with no choice who don't really understand why they are there, or who are told they are there to help the locals yet it is the locals they seem to be fighting that creates problems.

    If Russia is invaded then a conscript army defending the country makes sense because in modern war there will be no innocent civilians. Look at the western strategic bombing campaign over Germany... you can dress it up any way you like but it was all about vengeance with no regard for who was the threat and who was innocent bystander.
    By western standards it was a war crime, but western documentation generally rates this mass murder as more useful to the war effort than the Soviet forces fighting 3/4ths of the German army and airforce on the Eastern front.
    It might have been more useful if they had actually hit the targets like the ball bearing factories... but they didn't... or should I say couldn't.

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:06 am

    We tried the contract experiment, hell I was even part of it. Results are contractors commit more crime and have higher desertion rates. The reason is they expected better treatment than conscripts and never got it unless they were VDV. Most of them ended up in Chechnya sucking the combat pay and not doing anything. If the reforms made in airbourne had been applied to the whole Army, it would have been better. But the government didn't want to spend the money to deliver what they promised.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:20 am

    The thing is that you have to find a solution that works for Russia.

    You can't just look at NATO forces or US forces or British forces and force that model on the population of Russia.

    Conscription is not a good basis for a military because it takes more than a year to train a competent force and by the time they are trained they leave.

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:18 am

    It is not a good basis, but it is far cheaper not having to pay salaries to 600,000 contractors. The draft law was reduced to 12 months because 200,000 were dodging the draft per year. Now it is down to 24,000. The skilled positions are still held by contractors as conscripts will not have the time or the education to learn the skill. They will have time to learn how to be grunts and have professional NCOs leading the way. Biggest problem is filling roles in the VVS and Navy. These jobs require more training and 12 months is not enough to learn it.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  ekacipta021292 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:12 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote: The draft law was reduced to 12 months because 200,000 were dodging the draft per year. Now it is down to 24,000.


    O.o it is impressive. So, it means that people are less corrupt (i.e. pay-to-dodge the service), and I think corruption remains a big problem everywhere on earth, mainly in Russia.

    More reforms towards professionalism are -definitely- needed for the VVS, Navy, space and nuclear forces... Mainly it looks like Russia will need to secure its overseas territories from foreigners.

    Anyway, will the VMF get the PAK-FA anytime soon?

    How about the Interior troops? Are they based on conscripts?

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:31 pm

    ekacipta021292 wrote:

    Anyway, will the VMF get the PAK-FA anytime soon?

    How about the Interior troops? Are they based on conscripts?


    PAK FA will get IOC by 2017 if all goes to plan... if not it could be much later.

    MVD, some of it is, some of it isn't.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  Austin on Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:37 pm

    DIA: WORLD WIDE THREAT ASSESSMENT
    Statement before the Committee on Armed Services, United States Senate
    Ronald L. Burgess, Jr. Lieutenant General, U.S. Army
    Director, Defense Intelligence Agency


    Turning now to Russia, where its leaders are pursuing a more cooperative approach to relations with the United States and the West and are seeking access to foreign investment, technology, and markets. An example of cooperation is Moscow’s willingness to permit supplies to pass through Russia to Coalition forces in Afghanistan. Russia also voted for a fourth round of UN Security Council sanctions on Iran and canceled Iran’s SA-20 contract, but it still opposes unilateral U.S. or EU sanctions and will work with Iran in areas not subject to sanctions, including support for the nuclear power plant at Bushehr.

    Moscow has concerns about how long the positive trend in U.S.-Russian relations will last. Moscow sees the New START agreement as a key element of the evolving bilateral relationship. However, Moscow worries that U.S. policy will become more confrontational. Other concerns are U.S. military assistance to Georgia and plans to deploy missile defenses in Europe as part of the Phased Adaptive Approach. Moscow’s foreign policy pronouncements may increasingly reflect political posturing in advance of Russia’s December 2011 parliamentary election and March 2012 presidential election.

    The Russian military’s most comprehensive reform since World War II continues. The goal is to create more agile, modern, and capable forces. General purpose forces will be smaller, more mobile, and combat ready. They will be better suited to respond to threats along Russia’s periphery, win local conflicts, and quickly end regional wars. Russia will rely on its robust nuclear arsenal to deter and, if necessary, engage in larger regional or worldwide conflicts.

    Russia has moved from division- to brigade-centric ground forces, disbanded most of its Soviet-era mobilization reserve structure, and consolidated air force units. To better control general purpose forces in regional conflicts, it has formed the first peacetime joint strategic commands – West, East, South, and Center.

    Moscow’s 10-year modernization plan is a top priority for the armed forces. Defense-related spending probably will increase in 2011 by 9.2 percent in real terms to $72.9 billion. The 2011-2020 State Armament Program aims to spend about $630 billion with substantial increases for new weapons. Currently, the level of modern equipment in service is 10 percent; Moscow wants to increase it to 30 percent by 2015 and 70 percent by 2020. We assess that competing demands to sell arms abroad, Russia’s aging industrial base, lack of resources plus corruption and mismanagement most likely will keep modern equipment below those levels.

    New equipment for the general purpose forces will begin to increase in 2011, but deliveries will be small and Soviet-era weapons will remain the standard. Russia also will buy selected foreign systems, such as France’s Mistral amphibious assault ship, and will integrate foreign technology and sustain joint production programs.

    Russia is upgrading massive underground facilities that provide command and control of its strategic nuclear forces as well as modernizing strategic nuclear forces as another top priority. Russia will field more SS-27/Topol-M road-mobile ICBMs and SS-27 Mod-X-2 (RS-24) MIRVed ICBMs. It also will continue development of the Dolgorukiy/SS-NX-32 Bulava SSBN/SLBM and next-generation Air Launched Cruise Missiles.

    Russia already has formidable space and counterspace capabilities and is improving its navigation, communications, ballistic missile launch detection, and intelligence-gathering satellites. It has extensive systems for space surveillance and tracking and others with inherent counterspace applications, such as satellite-tracking laser rangefinders. Russia is researching or expanding directed-energy and signal jamming capabilities that could target satellites.

    Military readiness is generally increasing in Russia’s new units, but demographic trends will complicate efforts to fill the ranks adequately. Programs to build a professional military stalled because they are expensive and Moscow’s current priority is rearmament.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:23 am

    We assess that competing demands to sell arms abroad, Russia’s aging
    industrial base, lack of resources plus corruption and mismanagement
    most likely will keep modern equipment below those levels.


    They seem to think that the Russian government is too stupid to work out that an upgrade of the MIC is in order... there are a lot of "aging industrial" facilities, but these... one would expect have not be productive for the last 20 years, so the next ten years of actual production and productivity should result in those aging facilities being put to work and in the process of making new material it will also retool and upgrade their facilities to improve production output performance and also to meet the new requirements of the Russian military and export partners.One could call the Russian military and aging force out of touch with the 21st C.
    The thing is that they are in many ways at the start of a process of doing something about that. Figures will be talked about and levels of production and performance will be aimed at. The important thing is not that the precise numbers are achieved on time, the important thing is that the direction is held and every attempt is made to keep that direction. If the actual figures are unattainable, that is fine, but it just means that steps need to be taken to improve the situation so that for the next goals... which will be higher still have a better chance of being achieved till eventually the results will start exceeding expectations.If the production rate is not high enough the solution is not a Stalin like Memo telling the factory boss his head is on the line... the solution is for the military to look at why requirements are not being met.
    Do they need more production space?
    Do they need more of a specific tool type that is bottlenecking production?
    Do they need more skilled labour?
    Do they need another factory?
    Do they just need more of the money up front to buy materials or pay workers?
    Obviously if they are spending the money on Dachas for the management, then people should be fired... if they have spent all the money on new tooling to improve the quality and speed of production and need more money for training or materials then that is a different issue with different solutions.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:08 am

    The fact of matter is even if they get caught for corruption or get fired, UK gives them asylum ,example Borozevsky, Borodin, Livotenky , former vice govenor of Moscow Kozlov, should I go on? I am sorry Garry but you seem to think by firing people quality improves when the fact of matter is we need to fire them and arrest assets imediately so they don't end up on offshores like Virgin, Canary, Dubai, London. Then quality will improve when they consficate all that the official had.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:03 am

    Don't get me wrong, I was talking about incompetent people being fired, if there is any criminal element then it should be investigated and dealt with accordingly.
    Where I have a problem is when someone very high up like Putin or Medvedev just fire the person in charge when something goes wrong without an investigation.
    A good example was the commander of that naval facility that burned down during the fires last summer.
    On the face of it, it seemed the right thing to do... he was in charge and the place burned down.
    However further investigation shows lots of important things were ignored in the decision to fire him.
    His predecessor had ordered a fire break made around the facility and was reprimanded for it.
    The Fire brigade for the base was cut to save money and no replacement people or equipment was available.
    The guy in charge had only been in charge a few months and had made several attempts to do something about the fire vulnerability of the base but he was under staffed and most important the local fire department was being used to protect high officials dachas in the region over all other things.
    The commander of the base even gave his staff vehicle to the fire brigade to get support for fighting the fires... which worked for one day.

    In this case it was certainly incompetence... but the incompetent were not fired... a scapegoat was found and fired and on paper everything is fine now. NOT.

    I certainly agree that any money taken should be returned or recovered from the thief, including seizing assets and property even if it was legally purchased.

    Regarding the UK it is not totally an anti Russian thing... they provide asylum for anyone with large amounts of money including Arab Sheiks.

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