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    Greetings From USA (Ohio)

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    BTRfan
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    Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:38 pm

    Greetings from Ohio!

    As my name suggests, I am a fan of the BTR series of armored vehicles.

    GarryB
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:23 pm

    Welcome BTRfan... with mobility being a new focus for the smaller more mobile new Russian Army the BTR series might become much more important.

    Look forward to discussing new variants with you. Smile


    GarryB

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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:28 pm

    I sort of have another agenda here...

    I'm hoping to get a lot of information about the BTR-80, particularly in regards to where I can obtain one. I don't mind if I have to custom order one from the factory (as long as they are still making them, I believe they are, aren't they? Since Colombia recently acquired some, along with other nations...

    I would really like to be able to buy a BTR-80, obviously it would be disarmed/unarmed, but I'd like mounts for a Browning M2 as the main gun and a secondary mount for an M-60 or an M-240 as the secondary weapon. I don't need the seats for the eight infantryman, rather perhaps three seats in the back, a bench, and perhaps a folding bed, and some cargo space. The vehicle would be a SHTF/evac vehicle. I'd also want locking doors and hatches.

    I believe the BTR-80 is the best "bang for the buck" in regards to an armored vehicle. Unless I am mistaken the BTR-80 series offers protection against .50 caliber fire, something that can not be said of the BTR-70, correct?



    Although that's just part of my agenda, my other agenda is to have fun discussing things. Smile

    GarryB
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:32 pm

    There should be plenty of room for a 50 cal and 30 cal MG, but keep in mind the BTR-80 turret is not powered so it would be manually aimed.

    I rather doubt the BTR-80 would be 50 cal proof... the BTR-90 is 50 cal resistant from most angles but it weighs about 20 tons compared to the 14 tons of the BTR-80.

    If you fire 50 cal SLAP rounds both vehicles will likely be penetrated.

    The BTR series were simply transports that delivered the soldiers to the fight and then withdrew about 800m to offer some fire support with their guns... the 30mm armed BTR-90 and BTR-80A more so than the 14.5mm armed vehicles.

    Regarding best bang for buck I would think the cost of customisation AND brand new from the factory might be rather expensive.
    A second hand vehicle that you can get modified will probably save you a small fortune... unless you can find a model they produce that meets your requirements. They have many variants of the basic vehicle including recon and med evac and other types too.
    Another issue I remembered after my post on another thread to you is that make sure you are talking to the right people. The factory that makes them can talk about modifications, but might not be allowed to export to the US. You might need to contact www.rusarm.ru which will add middlemen to the cost but are a necessary part of the process unfortunately.
    The advantage with going through rusarm will be that they might have some used vehicles on offer as well as more expensive new models.

    BTRfan
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:There should be plenty of room for a 50 cal and 30 cal MG, but keep in mind the BTR-80 turret is not powered so it would be manually aimed.

    I rather doubt the BTR-80 would be 50 cal proof... the BTR-90 is 50 cal resistant from most angles but it weighs about 20 tons compared to the 14 tons of the BTR-80.

    If you fire 50 cal SLAP rounds both vehicles will likely be penetrated.

    The BTR series were simply transports that delivered the soldiers to the fight and then withdrew about 800m to offer some fire support with their guns... the 30mm armed BTR-90 and BTR-80A more so than the 14.5mm armed vehicles.

    Regarding best bang for buck I would think the cost of customisation AND brand new from the factory might be rather expensive.
    A second hand vehicle that you can get modified will probably save you a small fortune... unless you can find a model they produce that meets your requirements. They have many variants of the basic vehicle including recon and med evac and other types too.
    Another issue I remembered after my post on another thread to you is that make sure you are talking to the right people. The factory that makes them can talk about modifications, but might not be allowed to export to the US. You might need to contact www.rusarm.ru which will add middlemen to the cost but are a necessary part of the process unfortunately.
    The advantage with going through rusarm will be that they might have some used vehicles on offer as well as more expensive new models.


    Would a layer of ERA bricks add protection against .50 caliber in addition to helping against grenades/RPGs or would it just help against RPGs/grenades?

    My main concern in terms of small arms is that since the .50 caliber has proliferated so much in the USA, I don't want some crazed bubba with a bolt-action .50 or an AR with a .50 cal upper taking my vehicle (and by extension me) out. Most folks in the USA will only have access to basic .50 caliber ball, although I have occasionally seen Raufoss rounds out there, those are few and far between.

    BTRfan
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  BTRfan on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:There should be plenty of room for a 50 cal and 30 cal MG, but keep in mind the BTR-80 turret is not powered so it would be manually aimed.

    I rather doubt the BTR-80 would be 50 cal proof... the BTR-90 is 50 cal resistant from most angles but it weighs about 20 tons compared to the 14 tons of the BTR-80.

    If you fire 50 cal SLAP rounds both vehicles will likely be penetrated.

    The BTR series were simply transports that delivered the soldiers to the fight and then withdrew about 800m to offer some fire support with their guns... the 30mm armed BTR-90 and BTR-80A more so than the 14.5mm armed vehicles.

    Regarding best bang for buck I would think the cost of customisation AND brand new from the factory might be rather expensive.
    A second hand vehicle that you can get modified will probably save you a small fortune... unless you can find a model they produce that meets your requirements. They have many variants of the basic vehicle including recon and med evac and other types too.
    Another issue I remembered after my post on another thread to you is that make sure you are talking to the right people. The factory that makes them can talk about modifications, but might not be allowed to export to the US. You might need to contact www.rusarm.ru which will add middlemen to the cost but are a necessary part of the process unfortunately.
    The advantage with going through rusarm will be that they might have some used vehicles on offer as well as more expensive new models.



    My main criteria for SHTF vehicle...


    Armored to the extent that it can at least withstand some .30 caliber rifle and MMG fire, ideally .50 caliber rifle and HMG fire. I don't mind if it requires a bit of extra cash to upgrade the armor to give it protection against .50 caliber, also I plan on wearing personal body armor (Level IV) while inside the vehicle, so whatever fire is coming into the vehicle would first be penetrating the vehicle before it can begin to attempt to penetrate my personal armor. Still I'd rather not have it come down to trusting my personal armor to stop a .50 caliber that may have expended a lot of energy getting through the front armor or may have only expended a little energy getting through.

    Engine as easy to maintain as possible. I'm not a diesel mechanic but I know one and could probably pick up a few tricks in over a couple of months.

    Fully amphibious, ideally without preparation aside from buttoning up, minimal preparation is okay as long as it is still amphibious.

    Wheeled is preferred, tracked is okay if it meets all other criteria.

    Ability to carry at least a half-dozen people (counting crew), and provide some room for at least a few people to sleep/rest at a time, even if just lying in a seat and propping legs up somewhere. There should also be the ability to carry at least a dozen rifles, spare parts for rifles, and upwards of 5,000 to 10,000 rounds of small arms ammunition for said rifles.

    Ability to mount an HMG (such as Browning M2) as a primary armament, is a major plus.

    Ability to mount an MMG (such as M-240 or M-60) as a secondary armament, is a major plus.

    Full NBC protection.

    Diesel preferred.

    Transmission doesn't matter, standard is okay, automatic is okay.

    Capable of handling most light obstacles and of some degree of self-recovery (I won't exactly be able to call for an armored recovery vehicle if the thing gets stuck in mud).

    Smoke launchers are an added plus.

    Multiple entrances/exits, either rear/top, sides/top, sides/rear, or some combination. Best one I can think of would be rear and top or sides and top.

    Ability to shoot with personal weapons from inside the vehicle, particularly at threats alongside the vehicle.

    Some ability for decent internal lighting would be a great bonus as well.



    For the bulk of my criteria I feel the BTR-80 is the best way to go, particularly in regards to "best bang for buck" since it can do what I want it to do, and I believe it can do it cheaper and better than the next best alternatives.

    GarryB
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:33 am

    ERA would not work very well as the main armour would likely collapse from the explosion.

    I would suggest an extra layer of sheet steel perhaps 10mm thick. It wouldn't need to be a solid steel sheet, you could use a sheet with lots of holes every few mms that are maybe 7mm in diametre. The holes will reduce the weight of the sheet, but the layer will take the impact of the rounds and start them tumbling before they hit the base armour. At close range the impact will probably make a standard ball round break up.

    If you have seen Mythbusters most of the time when a 50 cal round is fired directly into water they only find fragments... this is because of the forces being exerted on the bullet make it fragment and a fragmenting bullet is a poor armour penetrator.

    Something like the Slat armour is a good choice too as it can be used for external stowage and to hang armour plates from.

    Perhaps the best solution would be to fit slat armour and have another set of sheet steel armour to fit to the slat armour to stop 50 cal rounds. You can use the vehicle with the slat armour because it means it is easier to get extra kit on it (plus I think it looks cooler) and if the Sh1t hits the fan you can fit the armour plates to the slat armour to stop 50 cal as well.
    Slat armour alone will not have good enough coverage for 50 cal rounds but it will also make tires easier to access in case you need to make repairs or maintainence.

    Still I'd rather not have it come down to trusting my personal armor to stop a .50 caliber that may have expended a lot of energy getting through the front armor or may have only expended a little energy getting through.

    In addition to the slat armour above and sheet metal hung on the outside of that you could cut up some steel plates and just bolt them on in vulnerable areas.

    The side sheets were used on the BMP-2E to stop 50 cal MG fire from the side.
    The BMP-3 had extra armour on the rear of the turret that was spaced about 50mm off from the original plate to also add protection.

    If you don't care how it looks you could even adapt the slat armour by making it into sheet steel boxes for external carriage of extra material, like water or you could fill them with sand for extra protection but the extra weight will effect driving performance.

    Reading your requirements I suspect something like the BMM (armoured ambulance vehicle) or the BREM-K (wheeled armoured repair and recovery vehicle) variants might appeal to you. Both are variants of the BTR-80 and are fully amphibious.
    The Ambulance model has more headroom in the front and better side access, while the recovery model has weilding equipment and lifting hoists as well as winches to get other vehicles or itself out of trouble.

    Probably best to talk with the makers.

    You could perhaps help them design a "survivalist" civilian vehicle they could market in the US. Smile

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:10 pm

    Welcome to RMF. welcome Please start a thread for the appropriate discussion.

    BTRfan
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  BTRfan on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:13 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Welcome to RMF. welcome Please start a thread for the appropriate discussion.


    Thank you.

    Should the thread be created in the general section?

    milky_candy_sugar
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    Re: Greetings From USA (Ohio)

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:05 am

    Welcome Welcome ^^ Very Happy


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