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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:43 pm


    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.



    And anyone here honestly hope that your opinion will be totally shared by US Navy Command and those of its allied nations ,it would be a true dream realized Very Happy
    Unluckily i honestly believe that they share the opinion exactly opposite to yours.....



    1) Shkval-E torpedo offered on international market is not only a vastly downgraded version of the first model of VA-111 (capable moreover to hit only surface units ) but also show an immensely simplified propulsion section just to prevent anyone to obtain ,from samples of this export version ,any technical information useful for develop, at its own time, a supercavitating torpedo version even only on par with the first domestic version.

    2) Even this vastly downgraded unguided export version of the first model of VA-111 can represent a simply deadly weapon ,without any peer among competitors in the hands of a proficient operator.
    The weapon ,in facts, assure the destruction of the attacked targets in spite of any defensive torpedo counter-measure on board for the simple reason that ,in virtue of its enormous speed ,it can literally proceed toward the computed intercept point in a totally unguided way (therefore totally immune to any soft-kill countermeasure) and still prevent the engaged ship to avoid the impact in any way; also the immensely more advanced and faster guided version can initiate the terminal , completely inertial, engagement phase toward the intercept point far outside the range of any anti-torpedo defensive countermeasure.
    The only real defensive countermeasure against those class of weapons is represented by active anti-torpedo hard-kill defensive systems such as "Paket" ,anyhow with reduced threat's suppression chances; but ,at today ,exactly as for VA-111 torpedo, don't exist any western corresponding to Paket hard kill defensive system. Wink )



    A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.


    Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Dozen of different systems could be used to attempt to engage an enemy submarine .....if detected in first instance and....if detected long enough .
    Several of those systems, wanting only to talk of conventional means, are hundreds of times more efficient than an Sh-60 (used mostly to deploy sonobuoys screens or to remotely investigate a "contact" at a speed of....170-180 km/h Laughing

    Do you know, if you receive a remote contact from a sonobuoys barrier or a bottom MAD sensors or thermo-differential detector or even a distant submarine or ship, two or three RPK-7 "Veter" or 91R1 "Kalibr" going toward the coordinates at more than 1800 km/h or 2400 km/h have several hundreds of times more chances to destroy the detected enemy submarine before the contact go lost.

    Returning to the real range of detection of enemy submarines (outside national sea areas covered by overlapping sensor systems) results obtained by the entire ASW screens of US NAvy CVBGs against even the most outdated foreign conventional submarines -several of which vastly inferior even to export models of first version ok Kilo class - are ......not perfectly encouraging.





    This is a cute photo taken by the......Oberon-class !!! .... HMAS "Onslow" submarine of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Carl Vinson" ,just before executing its simulated "kill" from ....300 yards after having surpassed totally undetected the surface and submarine screen of the CVBG










    This is USS "Enterprise" ,in all its beauty, kindly eternalized by a photo from a German Type 206A












    This instead is a lovely closing salutation ,before the kill, from the much more modern Type 212, SMG "S. Todaro" to the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Theodore Roosevelt" ,just seconds after having engaged also a destroyer of its escort Wink







    And so on with Australian Collin class, Chinese Song class , Dutch Zwaardvis-class etc…..

    With VA-111-E (export version) torpedo any submarine, in the same conditions and operation time, would have been perfectly capable to engage the entire CVBG instead of one or two at maximum, with the absolute certainty ,not only that none of the attacked ships would have been capable to neutralize in any way the menace , but that the immensely reduced time for the target's destruction and the lack of need for any wire guidance wouldn't have conceded to them any window for execute a counter attack on the submarine .


    "seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval".......oh yes, yes, of course. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


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    Werewolf

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:04 pm

    like a boss Cool
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:54 pm

    Another doubt about russian weapons capability once again destroyed for good Very Happy
    However If an oliver perry FFG, P-3 orion, etc. do eventually locate a soviet submarine(lets say schuka-1 for example)and release the AS torps what kinds of countermeasures do the sovietsailors have at their diposal? Will we see the paket in the yasen and lada class?

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:18 pm




    If an oliver perry FFG, P-3 orion, etc. do eventually locate a soviet submarine(lets say schuka-1 for example)and release the AS torps what kinds of countermeasures do the sovietsailors have at their diposal? Will we see the paket in the yasen and lada class?


    Paket ?

    Likely you have completely lost mine point in calling Paket hard kill defensive system in the argumentation : Paket is required for neutralize SUPERCAVITATING torpedo, with speed in exceeds of 220 kn, against which neither maneuvering, neither soft kill countermeasures can achieve any effect.
    At today a pr. 971 would never have the problem to confront a supercavitating torpedo for the simple reason that no "enemy" Navy has any of them in theirs inventory.

    Returning to your question, i find it very strange because, by now, is a commonly accepted fact that, on average, Russian nuclear submarine's survivability is MUCH, MUCH GREATER than all theirs western counterparts.

    The reasons contributing to that are several ,among which:


    1) Significantly higher depth limit
    2) Significantly higher speed and maneuverability
    3) Double hull construction
    4) Employment of higher yield steel ( AK-29 and Ak-32 steel since plain Cold War against the HY-60 and 80 used by US Very Happy )
    5) Extensive employment of titanium/titanium alloys
    6) Much greater reserve buoyancy
    7) Higher compartmentalization
    Cool Significantly lower magnetic signature
    9) Superior level of automation and systems redundancy
    10)Greater propulsion reactor's density (reduced chance of hit and of critical propulsion failure)

    If we talk of the Akula class named in your question, we must add to what up said also:

    1) Presence of the unique -not foreign analogues- MG-74/74M or MG-104 multispectral programmable decoy, capable to perfectly mimic submarine signatures, movements and behavior for more than an hour !!
    2) Hydrodynamics polymers delivering systems (to greatly enhances ,momentarily, submarine outer hull's hydrodynamics coefficient so to avoid enemy torpedo eventually not seduced/outranged)


    Just to provide a measure of the difficulty to hit a submarine proceding at high speed and great depth, is sufficient to remember that an APR-3/3M rocket propelled torpedo (also here we talk of a weapon with absolutely not western analogue) used also in anti-submarine variant of "Kaliber" missile, with a terminal engagement speed of about 100 knot ,about 2 times and half the speed of a Mk-46 torpedo..., and with significantly more powerful warhead than Mk-46 too, can engage targets with a maximum speed of 43 knot when this target proceed at depth greater than 290 m(naturally at the grow of the depth the Pk decrease accordingly)


    But all of what said obviously make no difference for the US, for no other reason that the unique nations it attack (in big NATO coalitions ,always enjoying crushing numerical advantage and ,very often, only after years of insulating international embargo) are only immensely inferior ones equipped with few export versions of weapon systems 30-35 years older. Razz Razz




    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:52 pm



    Next generation -5th- torpedo "Ломонос" and new generation of anti-torpoedo countermeasure МГ-124 "Бериллий" to be introduced within four years ; other programs in advancement too.



    http://www.almaz.info/3124.html



    Very likely the introduction of Pr. 885M, improved Yasen class, will follow the state test acceptance of those new generation weapons and defensive systems.



    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:04 pm

    Nice Post Mindstorm , Was missing you in action for some time , Welcome back

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:59 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    2) Hydrodynamics polymers delivering systems (to greatly enhances ,momentarily, submarine outer hull's hydrodynamics coefficient so to avoid enemy torpedo eventually not seduced/outranged)

    Those polymers system were known to be in development and Norman Polmar has hinted at it in this book but these systems were never operationalised on any submarine most certainly on Schuka/Akula class for sure.


    I should add here though Soviet/Russian submarine has many qualities that were non appreciated by Western Defence Journal types but professional in US who were not biased did appreciate qualities that russian submarine had lik greater depth , speed , energy , non-acoustic sensors.

    Most if the weakness in these areas where over come by west with Sea Wolf and Virginia class submarine which had similar depth , greater speed and other qualities that Soviet submarine enjoyed.

    Acoustically Speaking Akula class were equal or even superior to LA class and other western SSN but Sea Wolf and Virginia were acoustically far superior specially at high speed.

    Russia would come on par with most modern US submarine with Yasen class and perhaps Yasen-M might even give it some advantage acoustically speaking against most modern Western SSN.

    Ofcourse if the entire Zircon-S and 5th gen torpedo program is sucessful then 885M will be a different beast.
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    TR1

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    Paket anti-torpedo hard kill system

    Post  TR1 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 pm

    Learn something new every day - the Paket apparently is the only anti-torpedo hard kill system that uses its own torpedoes to hit incoming targets, in service anywhere in the world.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:35 am

    But that can't be right... the super sophisticated western navies have everything and the Russian and Soviet Navies had nothing.

    For decades the Soviets/Russians have had anti torpedo capability with their RBU depth charge launcher systems specifically designed for anti torpedo use. Now they are adopting the PAKET to the same role so they will have even better performance in terms of anti torpedo protection.... ho hum. russia


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    Hachimoto

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Hachimoto on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:08 am

    @TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:18 pm


    Hachimoto wrote:@TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?


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    NickM

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  NickM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:27 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:@TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?

    The the AN/WSQ-11 Surface Ship Torpedo Defense System on board US ships can detect any type of torpedos . A combination of Tripwire DCL , The hard-kill Anti-Torpedo Torpedo , SLQ-25A can destroy any incoming torpedo .

    Not to mention the Aegis Combat system that can nullify any incoming cruise missiles . No other country has anything remotely close to the Aegis and third world countries like China & India are at least a generation behind.

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:47 pm

    NickM wrote:Not to mention the Aegis Combat system that can nullify any incoming cruise missiles . No other country has anything remotely close to the Aegis and third world countries like China & India are at least a generation behind.

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.

    lol! lol! Laughing Laughing
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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Wed May 01, 2013 12:10 am

    lol.

    This guy keeps delivering.

    Hey Nick, does it hurt that the US has no hard-kill system equivalent to the Paket?
    The ATT is not in service.
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    NickM

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  NickM on Wed May 01, 2013 7:09 pm

    TR1 wrote:Hey Nick, does it hurt that the US has no hard-kill system equivalent to the Paket?

    Your ignorance is hilarious Smile The Rapid Prototype Torpedo Warning System and Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo System gives US ships a hard-kill method for eliminating incoming torpedo attacks . Aegis as I have already said can neutralize any cruise missiles in combination with the EW systems which are unparalleled in the world.

    So all of a sudden neither can your torpedos hit us nor can your cruise missiles . What's wrong TR1 , cat got your tongue Smile
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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Wed May 01, 2013 8:59 pm

    Show me an in-service US Navy anti-torpedo torpedo you dolt Smile

    Changing your tune eh?

    Btw, Soviet ships have had RBUs cued to sonar for decades. OMG INVINCIBLE FROM TORPEDOS!!111
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 02, 2013 2:39 am

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.

    The HMS Sheffield had both Sea Wolf and Sea Dart missiles... both systems on paper could easily deal with sea skimming anti ship missiles like Exocet... the Sea Wolf could hit individual 114mm artillery shells, yet the Sheffield was sunk by an Exocet.

    Having a counter system does not make it 100% certain of an effective counter... even the S-400 has all sorts of jammers and short range SAMs and decoys defending it.


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    dionis

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    Learn something new every day - the Paket apparently is the only anti-torpedo hard kill system that uses its own torpedoes to hit incoming targets

    Post  dionis on Thu May 02, 2013 6:04 pm

    NickM wrote:

    Aegis as I have already said can neutralize any cruise missiles in combination with the EW systems which are unparalleled in the world.


    And the star-spangled bannnnerrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    "Neutralize any cruise missiles" - dubious claim.

    More importantly, it CANNOT neutralize them with *100%* efficiency. That's the end of the story. Complete immunity even if favorable scenario = fantasy.

    I'd keep off the Discovery Channel.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:10 pm

    Any idea why missile/rocket is being fired from Vikramaditya ?

    http://i.imgur.com/BU2a2qJ.jpg
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:11 am

    Any idea why missile/rocket is being fired from Vikramaditya ?

    It is a 140mm rocket, of which there are about 4 types.

    Depending on the type of rocket it is either deploying radar chaff (for active radar homing anti ship missiles), IR elements (to create an IR decoy of the ship), or two types of smoke/IR/light reflecting rockets that create false targets to confuse laser, IR, and optically guided threats.


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    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:21 am

    Thank You Garry , Hope you are right

    What is the designation of the system ? And any link to it for pictures etc
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:34 am

    It is the larger of two system types used by the Russian Navy that has a calibre of 82mm and is for use on smaller ships.

    The 140mm rockets have a much longer range than the 82mm rockets which operate from 500-1,800m or so from the vessel that launches them.

    The 140mm rockets are used in the PK-2, PK-10, and PK-16 launchers.

    The A3-TSP-47 radar decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with radar guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a confusing or distracting false target in the form of a chaff cloud ensuring confusion of detection and target designation radar systems and the distraction of the attacking weapon to a false direction.

    The A3-TSO-47  low temperature decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with IR guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a hot false target in the form of a cloud of smoldering elements that distract the attacking weapons at the stage of target search.

    The A3TSO-47 visual optical decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with visual optical and laser guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a visual optical false target in the form of a cloud of burning pyrotechnic elements and special light reflectors that ensure the suppression of visual optical and laser detection systems.

    The A3-TSTV-47 TV decoy rocket is designed to protect surface ships from weapons fitted with TV and laser guidance systems by setting up at an assigned area a water surface false target in the form of a contrast aerosol cloud ensuring the confusion of TV and laser homing heads and the distraction of attacking weapons to a false direction.

    False targets generated by these rocket systems can be set up from 500-6,000m from the ship.

    The rockets are about 40kgs in weight each and are about 1.1m long.



    This is a different angle of the same type of rocket and launcher...

    The result of their use looks like this:



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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:54 am

    To add on what to garry said:

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Dnq4-erDT8Q/T8Sdp7AUZnI/AAAAAAAAAQw/yUMssE7IDMY/s1600/IMG_7376.JPG

    Here is a pic of the same launcher on another part of the ship.
    This system can be found all over the Russian navy.

    http://warfare.be/0702ey70/update/feb2005/3/pk2.jpg
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:56 am

    Nice photos TR-1...

    This one:


    In the top left is the PK-2 launcher, the top right shows three types of munitions... to the top left the tubes with the flat tops and tiny round base plates that look like mortar tubes are 120mm calibre jamming/decoy rockets, while the top left large rockets are the 140mm rockets I described, and the small rockets in front are the 82mm rockets.

    The bottom left is a normal photo of the decoys being launched while the bottom right photo likely shows the IR view an incoming missile would have.

    Note the 82mm rockets have the designation A3-TSP-60U, and A3-TST-60U, while the 120mm rockets are for the PK-10 system for very close in threats to mask the ships own signature so that it looks like the decoy signature and have designations like A3-SR-50, A3-SO-50, and A3-SOM-50.

    Here are some other pics:





    PK-16 launcher (82mm rockets)





    PK-10 (120mm rockets)

    Also found some info here:

    http://warfare.be/db/catid/333/title/decoy/


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    Austin

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    Any idea why missile/rocket is being fired from Vikramaditya ?

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:08 pm

    Nice Info . Thanks TR1 , Garry

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