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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    Isos
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:32 pm

    Kilos have had MANPADS mounts since the 1980s.
    Is it lunched from torpedo tubes or you have to need to go to the surface to fire it ? The german missile is "lock on after lunch" type and fired submerged.
    However if it miss the heli will know its exact position. Pretty hard to use this type of weapon in general, the small speed of diesel sub doesn't help...



    Such a missile would be bad for use against a carrier group... a carrier group will have plenty of anti sub helos... you really don't want to have to sail within 20km of a carrier group to fire a missile... most carrier groups will at the very least have a SSN escort that would be an enormous threat to your subs closing to within 20km of the group.

    The small Kh-35 based missile was for lighter patrol ships and helos and had a 70km range and a smaller warhead than the original... I will have a look to see if I can find the photo....

    Actually the new air to ground Hermes missile would actually fit your description... it has a range of guidance options including radar, passive laser homing, GLONASS, and IIR/TV and would have a range of about 30km with a 30kg warhead.

    A bit too light to be effective against a modern ship however.

    It's he typical range of a torpedo too. Even the torpedo lunch will be detected. It's much safer to fire lot of small missiles with the torpedos to distract crews.
    I agree they are not effective to sink them but they can damage radars or some other systems and start big fires at many places in evry ship of the formation. The exocet in Falkland didn't explod but manage to sink a frigate. Well, in open ocean it's useless but diesel subs are not mean to go their. In shallow waters it usefull as SSN won't go their.



    Do you know how far from the cost do carrier battlgroup operate ? (in lybia, afghanistan, golf war)

    TheArmenian
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:53 pm

    Very interesting video


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:51 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Very interesting video


    Yes, very interesting. I suspect the footage of hits against the target ship are likely to be Soviet-era footage? The first looked to be a Bazalt P-500 class weapon, but the later hits where clearly a slower winged missile, and I suspect these may have been a Metel/SS-N-14 Silex in AShM mode?

    Its a pity the P-500 strike wasn't a direct hit. It would have been SPECTACULAR!!

    Anyone know the identity of the target hulk?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:53 am

    Is it lunched from torpedo tubes or you have to need to go to the surface to fire it ? The german missile is "lock on after lunch" type and fired submerged.

    The Kilo class is a diesel electric that needs to surface to charge its batteries... while it is on the surface the MANPAD mount is used for air defence.

    However if it miss the heli will know its exact position. Pretty hard to use this type of weapon in general, the small speed of diesel sub doesn't help...

    If an IRS-T missile bursts out of the water the ASW forces have an idea it is not just fish there too.

    There is a potential to deploy a small rubber boat with a single diver able to swim to the surface and defend against an aircraft in an emergency... better than nothing.


    It's he typical range of a torpedo too. Even the torpedo lunch will be detected. It's much safer to fire lot of small missiles with the torpedos to distract crews.

    The Soviets used 650mm torpedos against carrier groups... with a range of 100km or so.

    I agree they are not effective to sink them but they can damage radars or some other systems and start big fires at many places in evry ship of the formation. The exocet in Falkland didn't explod but manage to sink a frigate. Well, in open ocean it's useless but diesel subs are not mean to go their. In shallow waters it usefull as SSN won't go their.

    There is a mine that has a tube with a torpedo in it that when it detects a particular class of ship it can launch that torpedo to attack that ship as it comes past. It is used in narrow passageways and channels where ships have to pass to move from one place to another.

    I suspect the best use of a small 300kg missile with a 30kg warhead and a 20-30km range would be as a mine. You could deliver a dozen with each torpedo sized load of them in the path of a carrier group steaming to an emergency... their own sonar can detect the approaching ships and pick a target direction to send the missiles on launch. I would recommend IIR seekers as ships will stand out against the sea in terms of temperature so you will get good target discrimination and all weather passive attack capability... though an antenna popping out of the sea could be detected by radar but would allow active radar emissions to be detected. After the first missiles launch the carrier group will be scanning for threats so the second wave of missiles can use anti radiation seekers to take out the radars... or deplete the ships air defences before they get to the theatre they were headed for.

    Ideally attacking the fleet during a storm or bad weather and a high sea state would likely get the best result for not much development cost.
    Of course using torpedoes means all those expensive SAM systems will have no effect defending the ships... a mix of missiles and torpedoes would be best... as it often is.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:07 am

    Nice video... starts out with BAL launches (ie land launched Kh-35s) and then at 14 seconds on shows Onyx in its shore based version. (export Yakhont or Brahmos). Then there is the ship launch of a large missile with two large solid rocket boosters... which means Granit or Vulkan and at 45 seconds or so the very high speed missile blows past the target with what looks like a devastating hit to the ships bridge...
    Then there is a hit in the water next to the target barge by what I suspect is a bomb. Followed by several more attacks with bombs... one of which hits and one lands in the water next to the ship at about one minute 13seconds.

    I suspect the last weapons shown are glide bombs perhaps with GLONASS guidance rather than active homing weapons.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:28 am

    Ahhh...  managed to (provisionally) identify the class of vessel launching the heavy AShM.  It looks to be a Pr 1234 Ovod/Nanuchka class missile-boat, and the missile is a P-120 Malakhit/SS-N-9.

    Interesting that the radar for the Osa SAM (in immediate foreground) is turned to face the superstructure, presumably to shield the radar dishes from exhaust wash from the AShM launch.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Project Canada on Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:30 pm




    In Russia, we created a new sound-absorbing coating for "Boreas" and "Ash"

    External noise absorbing coating disperses submarine sonar signal and thus provides protection against anti-enemy

    "Tehmash" Concern has launched production of a new special sound-absorbing coating for the fourth-generation submarines, said on Tuesday in the Group.

    "New industrial rubber production will ensure the release of special coatings with improved acoustic performance for modern submarine of the fourth generation of boats. Technical plates, which we launched on the basis of the Cheboksary Production Association named after Chapaev, favorably differ from Western models the ability to absorb the acoustic signals of a wide range and high performance" - are reported words of the general director Sergey Rusakov concern.



    External noise absorbing coating submarine, in particular sonar signal scatters and thus provides protection against anti enemy forces.

    Now several submarines of the fourth generation are in the Russian Navy - a nuclear submarine type "Northwind" and "Ash", as well as non-nuclear "Lada".

    https://defence.ru/issledovanie-materialov/v-rossii-sozdali-novoe-zvukopogloschayuschee-pokritie-dlya-boreev-i-yasenei/

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:51 am

    As subs get quieter opposing forces have to resort more and more on active sonar to find and to attack submarines.

    Having an effective coating that absorbs sound means even active homing torpedoes will have problems finding a sub and hitting it...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Project Canada on Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:27 am




    Russia to test new missiles in Syria later this year


    Aircraft based on Russia's only aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov may combat-test new X-38 missiles, as well as SVP-24 computer systems for unguided weaponry in Syria in November of this year

    The Russian air force is preparing to try out new weaponry and targeting systems, with full combat tests of the hardware to be carried out as part of missions in Syria, according to an RBTH source in the Russian military-industrial complex.

    In November 2016, the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov will be dispatched toward Syria's shores, with the deck-based Su-33 and MiG-29K/KUB fighters and Ka-52K Katran helicopters on board.

    According to the RBTH source, the carrier’s naval aircraft may test the new X-38 missiles in combat action at the end of the year.

    "We reinforce our aviation group and bring in completely new means of destruction to the region," said the RBTH source. "MiG-29K fighters will use a totally new type of missile, the X-38, to eliminate the militants."


    New targeting systems

    According to the RBTH source, Su-33 fighters, in turn, will receive the SVP-24, a new high-precision targeting system for unguided missiles.

    The system allows to increase the accuracy of air strikes several times over and avoid possible civilian casualties.

    The system adjusts the flight path based on the fighter's position and flight parameters. As a result, the deviation from the target is not more than a couple of meters. At the same time, the SVP-24 is only a couple of extra units that will be installed as part of the aircraft's avionics.

    What are the MiG-29K/KUB and Su-33?
    According to Andrei Fomin, chief editor of the Vzlyot magazine, these deck-based MiGs are some of the latest serially produced 4++ generation fighter jets.

    "Despite its resemblance to the land-based version of the MiG-29, this is a completely different aircraft," said Fomin. "This applies to its stealth technologies, a new system of in-flight refueling, folding wings and mechanisms by which the aircraft has the ability to perform short take-offs and land at low speeds."

    According to Fomin, the Su-33 was created as an aircraft to ensure air superiority, i.e. as a full-fledged fighter-interceptor.

    In turn, the MiG-29K/KUB is a multi-role aircraft, designed to provide air defense for naval forces, as well as to destroy surface and ground targets with guided high-precision weapons, day or night and in all weather conditions.

    During the Syrian campaign, naval Su-33 fighters with new targeting systems will use gravity bombs. The MiG-29K/KUB aircraft will be equipped with guided bombs and missiles, using the Glonass satellite navigation system.

    According to the RBTH source in the military-industrial complex, the operational tour may involve about 15 naval MiG-29K/KUB and Su-33 fighters, as well as 10 Ka-52K Katran, Ka-27 and Ka-31 combat helicopters.

    Deck-based Ka-52s
    Ka-52 Katran attack helicopters were designed for the two French Mistral-class amphibious assault ships ordered by Moscow but never delivered: French President Francois Hollande had to terminate the contract for the supply of the warships to Russia under pressure from France’s NATO allies after Russia’s seizure of Crimea and intervention in eastern Ukraine in 2014.

    As a result, the Mistrals were acquired by Egypt, and immediately thereafter Cairo purchased a batch of 50 Russian Katrans from Moscow.The remaining helicopters were assigned to the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier, and they will take their "baptism of fire" at the end of the year.

    As Vadim Kozyulin, a professor of the Academy of Military Sciences, noted, the land-based Ka-52 helicopters proved successful in the Syrian campaign. The new machines will also have to demonstrate their combat potential to future buyers.

    http://rbth.com/defence/2016/09/14/russia-to-test-new-missiles-in-syria-later-this-year_629957


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:33 pm

    Preliminary tests of Russia's sea-based Pantsir air defense system completed — official

    The new weapons system will be mounted on various types of warships, "from small-sized missile ships to big patrol vessels"

    TULA, September 16. /TASS/. Preliminary trials of the Patsir-M anti-aircraft cannon system have been completed successfully, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Friday.

    "We have conducted preliminary tests of the sea-based Pantsir, which demonstrated positive results. Now we are to begin official tests. We hope to begin by the end of this year," he told journalists.

    He said the new weapons system will be mounted on various types of warships, "from small-sized missile ships to big patrol vessels."

    According to earlier reports, it is planned to begin tests of the sea-based Pantsir system onboard a ship at the end of 2016.

    The Pantsir-M is designed to supersede the Kortik system.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/900185


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Project Canada on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:25 pm

    on other news..,

    project 941 Very Happy









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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:04 pm



    22 Hellfire missile (8kg warhead) to destroy an Oliver Hazard Perry frigate ... Don't need a lot to sink them. I was suggesting a good idea with my small anti ship missile sub lunched in massive salvos by SSK.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:46 am

    First of all I would say any frigate that actually defended itself would not be so easy to sink.

    Second of all 22 x 8kgs distributed to 22 different locations and applied one after the other would act like a cluster bomb in terms of damage and would likely promote fires on board that would accelerate the ship sinking.

    22 x 8 is about 175kg which is similar to the weight of explosive on your average light antiship missile... I think off the top of my head the Kh-335 has 145kg HE warhead but delivering it to one impact point and exploding it all at once does not make it more destructive than placing in different places in 8kg lots.

    Remember blowing up a building you use lots of small charges in specific places to destroy the integrity of the structure... in comparison to bring the building down in one explosion you need a much bigger bomb and risk a large part of the structure remaining standing.



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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:14 am

    The point here is a atgm with only 8km range vs a ship with dozens of means to be defensive and offensive. No chance to even damage the ship with hellfires. Your helo would be detected from many miles and intercepted with Sam's.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:16 pm

    22 hellfires would be dealt with very quickly and efficiently. Long range anti ship missiles need to be fired in volleys to be effective against one ship, and those are dedicated missiles.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:57 am

    Of course if the missile was HERMES and had a 30kg warhead and a 20km range then for very small ships with a 57mm gun or smaller and MANPADS for self defence then a helo like a Ka-52k would actually be rather dangerous... more so if you had a few Kh-25s carried too.

    the problem for the helo is that such small ships rarely operate alone and with larger ships with heavier SAMs the problem becomes rather more complicated.

    For a western sub even carrying dozens of small short range missiles like a super hellfire the act of launching the missiles will reveal your general location and even small Russian Corvettes have a UKSK launcher which can carry a mach 2.5 rocket do deliver a torpedo into the water up to 50km from the vessel.

    I would say on most normal missions a corvette would not carry a land attack missile so the 8 tubes would likely have anti sub and anti ship missiles... so when a US sub launches a dozen or so super hellfires the corvette being attacked can lob one or two anti sub missiles to where the missiles first appeared...

    A good example of such a missile might be the British Sea Skua which was carried by helos and used successfully in the Falklands war.

    Air defences have improved since that time however.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:40 am

    The underwater missile "Predator"

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2170952.html


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:20 pm

    George1 wrote:The underwater missile "Predator"

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2170952.html

    From text is looks like improved Shkval cavitating torpedo. I wonder if any control is added and range. It might be nice weapon for drones. just lay down on bottom 1km +, no sound, no movement, just listening. Until Ac group comes close..then salvo of 500km/h torpedos and the way cleared Smile

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:34 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    George1 wrote:The underwater missile "Predator"

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2170952.html

    From text is looks like improved Shkval cavitating torpedo. I wonder if any control is added and range. It might be nice weapon for drones. just lay down on bottom 1km +,  no sound, no movement, just listening. Until Ac group comes close..then salvo of 500km/h torpedos and the way cleared Smile

    There's another article from a different source that also talks about the ABM A-235 in relation to it, which is real puzzling.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=en&tl=ru&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvpk.name%2Fnews%2F165449_podvodnaya_raketa_hishnik.html&edit-text=&act=url

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:13 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    George1 wrote:The underwater missile "Predator"

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2170952.html

    From text is looks like improved Shkval cavitating torpedo. I wonder if any control is added and range. It might be nice weapon for drones. just lay down on bottom 1km +,  no sound, no movement, just listening. Until Ac group comes close..then salvo of 500km/h torpedos and the way cleared Smile

    There's another article from a different source that also talks about the ABM A-235 in relation to it, which is real puzzling.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=en&tl=ru&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvpk.name%2Fnews%2F165449_podvodnaya_raketa_hishnik.html&edit-text=&act=url

    not that bad, look below

    JSC "KB "Electropribor" (Saratov) presented the application-presentation for participation in the contest "aircraft Builder of the year" by the end of 2015, organized by the Union of aircraft manufacturers of Russia.


    In the first part of the application of JSC "KB "Electropribor"
    is created to represent the enterprise modernized management system "multi-channel missile system special purpose" (of the missile defense complex) system RTC-181М (A-235) in the framework of the ROC "Plane-M". It is reported that "since the beginning of 2015 is the serial production of the modernized systems. At the end of 2016 it is planned to conduct interdepartmental testing of the system, including field work (missile), the results of which will be held the awarding of the design documentation of the upgraded system the letter "O1".


    Later in the application it is reported that "one of the directions of scientific and technical activity of JSC "KB "Electropribor" on the implementation of the state defense order are the R & d to develop composite parts advanced underwater vehicles".


    So A-235 is referring to a first part of presentation. Second to improved Shkval.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:57 pm



    Is this a correct representation on the effectiveness of aegis vs supersonic missiles? It says that for each aegis equipped ship you need over 25 AShMs to bring it down, not counting any additional support it might have. Can the Russian navy bring that kind of firepower?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:06 am

    We talking about the same AEGIS class cruiser that penetrated Iranian waters in the late 1980s and was almost destroyed by an Airbus?

    I doubt we can be sure until an actual attack is successfully repulsed, but the Kh-32 and Onyx and Moskit would not be easy beats... we were told Patriot could shoot down Scuds remember...


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:26 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:

    Is this a correct representation on the effectiveness of aegis vs supersonic missiles? It says that for each aegis equipped ship you need over 25 AShMs to bring it down, not counting any additional support it might have. Can the Russian navy bring that kind of firepower?

    You shouldn't be so easily swayed by crude black propaganda. The HMS Sheffield was sunk by a "1" Excocet missile in the Falklands War, and the HMS Sheffield has a displacement of 4,820 tons, compare that to the Arleigh Burke classes 9800 tons. For it to take 25 AShMs, you would need a 100k ton displacement, and keep in mind P-800 Onyx warhead is almost 100kg's heavier (Exocet 165kg's, Onyx 250kg's). Theoretically speaking it would only need 1 to 2 Onyx to sink a Arleigh Burke destroyer, and is it mere coincidence that the Bastion-P launcher (that fires Onyx AShM's from a land vehicle) has a standard load of 2 Onyx missiles?...I think not!

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  OminousSpudd on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:52 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:

    Is this a correct representation on the effectiveness of aegis vs supersonic missiles? It says that for each aegis equipped ship you need over 25 AShMs to bring it down, not counting any additional support it might have. Can the Russian navy bring that kind of firepower?
    I've seen a few of this guy's videos now... and they're pretty bad. I think what makes it worse is that he poses as a Russian.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:08 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:

    Is this a correct representation on the effectiveness of aegis vs supersonic missiles? It says that for each aegis equipped ship you need over 25 AShMs to bring it down, not counting any additional support it might have. Can the Russian navy bring that kind of firepower?
    I've seen a few of this guy's videos now... and they're pretty bad. I think what makes it worse is that he poses as a Russian.

    Yeah I'm starting to believe he isn't Russian. He tries to be balanced but he honestly goes full retard especially in his Russia vs turkey video by not taking into account Russian land based cruise missiles, and considering the T-72B as terrible while the M60 as "adequate".

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