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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    max steel
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:14 pm

    Bubble-Enclosed Submarines Could Go Really, Really Fast

    Supercavitation promises airplane speeds--under the sea.

    Researchers at Penn State are working to enclose the submarines of the future in a bubble of gas, allowing them to achieve top speeds faster than what is possible while moving through regular water. If successful, it could mean submarines capable of speeds of up to hundreds of miles per hour.

    As submarines and torpedoes travel through seawater they are naturally at the mercy of physics, and objects traveling through sea travel encounter much more drag than objects traveling through air. The end result is that the practical speed limit of submarines is somewhere around 30 to 40 knots. Even with nuclear propulsion, that's about the best many military submarines can do.

    But what if it were possible to enclose a submarine in a gas as it travels through liquid? That's the principle behind supercavitation.

    There is a precedent: the Russian VA-111 Shkval torpedo. Developed in the 1970s, Shkval is equipped with a bubble generator in the nose that envelops the torpedo in a gas membrane while a solid rocket fuel engine provides thrust. The Shkval is capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots—up to five times faster than conventional torpedoes.

    Scientists at Penn State are currently trying to understand so-called "pulsation"—the continuous cycle of shrinkage and expansion of a gas bubble around an object that occurs during supercavitation. Pulsation creates an inconsistent bubble unsuitable for travel, but before they can tame pulsation, the scientists need to understand how it works. Pulsation is difficult to create under laboratory conditions, but researchers at Penn State have managed to pull it off.

    Supercavitating submarines wouldn't be perfect. Ultimately submarines are stealthy killers, relying on their ability to remain undetected. Maintaining a giant gas bubble would be very noisy, making the submarine easy to locate. A compromise might be a submarine that can sprint from its base at, say San Diego by supercavitation, and then switch to slow-and-stealthy mode once it gets to a patrol zone in the western Pacific.

    Another thing about supercavitating submarines: if they, like Shkval, used rocket motors for thrust the subs would generate tremendous amounts of pollution, dumping rocket exhaust directly into the oceans. Not the most eco-friendly propulsion system, but seriously impressive if it can be made to work.
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    George1
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:40 am

    All new Russian Navy ships and submarines will be equipped with the Fizik-1 universal deep water homing torpedo which has a target range 2.5 times greater than the USET-80, currently in service, a military source told RIA Novosti on Wednesday.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160629/1042168265/torpedo-ships-submarines.html

    so this is the new standard torpedo of Russian Navy?


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  chicken on Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:50 am

    George1 wrote:
    All new Russian Navy ships and submarines will be equipped with the Fizik-1 universal deep water homing torpedo which has a target range 2.5 times greater than the USET-80, currently in service, a military source told RIA Novosti on Wednesday.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160629/1042168265/torpedo-ships-submarines.html

    so this is the new standard torpedo of Russian Navy?

    I believe they already upgraded that.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:00 pm

    http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/missile-systems-land-and-sea-based-missile-systems/3r-14uksk-kh-ship-general-purpose-firing-system



    Just found that their are 2 types of uksk lunchers. One with 8 missiles and one with just 4 missiles wich is smaller.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:56 pm

    I have seen models where if you look under the deck a UKSK launcher is two huge tubes with 4 inner tubes, so one bin launcher has two big huge tubes that contain two lots of 4 tubes equalling 8 small tubes in total for the missiles for naval vessels.

    I suspect the single large tube model with just 4 small tubes is for the shipping container version and might have a land based model like Iskander eventually when the INF treaty is torn up... Smile

    For use on ships its great depth because of the length of the missiles the system carries means the launcher needs to be centrally placed... so I doubt they would fit only 4 tubes on ships or subs... might as well have all 8 tubes...

    Thanks for the link to that site though... Smile


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:05 pm

    Actually looking at that site...

    this page:

    http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/missile-systems-land-and-sea-based-missile-systems/club-u-modular-missile-system

    Shows Club... which is the family of missiles in the UKSK launcher so this page shows it refitted onto an existing type... in this case a Udaloy class with mockups of inclined launchers and new under deck systems and systems mounted at the mid section... this suggests such inclined mounts could be used on the Slava and Sovremmeny class as well as Udaloy.

    the inclined launcher seems to have 6 missiles ready to launch so fitting that to a Slava class means instead of 16 heavy missiles in 8 sets of twin launchers it should be able to carry 8 sets of 6 missiles, so 48 missiles...

    So that is the Club land attack (ie Kalibr) plus the Club subsonic anti ship missile and the Club subsonic anti ship missile with the rocket propelled mach 3 terminal stage anti ship missile...


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    chinggis
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    650mm torpedo

    Post  chinggis on Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:08 pm

    What is status of 650mm torpedo's in Russian Navy? After Kursk disaster there is a rumor that they will be put out of service and after that I am not hear nothing about that.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually looking at that site...

    this page:

    http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/missile-systems-land-and-sea-based-missile-systems/club-u-modular-missile-system

    Shows Club... which is the family of missiles in the UKSK launcher so this page shows it refitted onto an existing type... in this case a Udaloy class with mockups of inclined launchers and new under deck systems and systems mounted at the mid section... this suggests such inclined mounts could be used on the Slava and Sovremmeny class as well as Udaloy.

    the inclined launcher seems to have 6 missiles ready to launch so fitting that to a Slava class means instead of 16 heavy missiles in 8 sets of twin launchers it should be able to carry 8 sets of 6 missiles, so 48 missiles...

    So that is the Club land attack (ie Kalibr) plus the Club subsonic anti ship missile and the Club subsonic anti ship missile with the rocket propelled mach 3 terminal stage anti ship missile...

    Well if they decide to do that, it would give them a realy big power up, I mean just puting the inclined lunchers. Their Moskit have a small range for a destroyer. They could assist Slava's and Kirovs with the same missiles.

    Hope they will do that, They just need to change the external lunchers, wires and computers. Its not a big job to do that, they could do it easily.

    GarryB wrote:I have seen models where if you look under the deck a UKSK launcher is two huge tubes with 4 inner tubes, so one bin launcher has two big huge tubes that contain two lots of 4 tubes equalling 8 small tubes in total for the missiles for naval vessels.

    I suspect the single large tube model with just 4 small tubes is for the shipping container version and might have a land based model like Iskander eventually when the INF treaty is torn up... Smile

    For use on ships its great depth because of the length of the missiles the system carries means the launcher needs to be centrally placed... so I doubt they would fit only 4 tubes on ships or subs... might as well have all 8 tubes...

    Thanks for the link to that site though... Smile

    Or put some missiles on Navy's tankers Twisted Evil
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:31 pm

    chinggis wrote:What is status of 650mm torpedo's in Russian Navy? After Kursk disaster there is a rumor that they will be put out of service and after that I am not hear nothing about  that.

    The Yasen class SSN is reckoned to carry 650mm tubes, so I'd suggest that those reports are inaccurate.

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    Sunburns on Tarantul

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:26 pm

    when was the Sunburn started being used on the Tarantul class missile ships ?
    I mean 12 Tarantul III class ships were in commision by 1990 but did they have the Sunburns at that time ?
    Reason I ask as the Database for soviet missiles in 1989 lists only 80 Sunburns in their inventory and at that time there were 9-10 Sovremennys in the fleet as well
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:06 pm

    The first 10-11 Tarantula class boats had an older rocket powered version of Moskit... it wasn't until the next vessels entered service they had the combined rocket ramjet powered Sunburn....


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:49 am

    GarryB wrote:The first 10-11 Tarantula class boats had an older rocket powered version of Moskit... it wasn't until the next vessels entered service they had the combined rocket ramjet powered Sunburn....
    Ok thanks but they were never armed with SSN-7 ?

    The SSN-16 Stallion RPK-6 and RPK-7 was a dual ASUW and ASW weapon ? Was this the principal ASUW weapon of Victor III/Alfa/Akula/Sierra class ?

    It was explained here on this forum that RPK6/7 was only assigned a ASW role in SSN so what was their principal anti-surface ship weapon
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:34 pm


    Russia will create a system of protection of the Arctic

    Enterprises of the military-industrial complex are developing a sonar system for the protection of the Arctic territorial waters of Russia, have informed "news" a source in the defense Ministry.
    - Now there is a study project of the new system. Work should be completed next year and after approval of the Ministry of defense will begin deploying it, - said the interlocutor of the edition.

    SEE ALSO
    In the Arctic will build ten military airfields
    "Security alarm" of the Arctic is composed of three components: marine, space and terrestrial. First, sonar buoys and underwater sensors, catch the noise of surface ships and submarines. The information gathered through satellites is transmitted to ground control station. The expanded system will cover the area of hundreds of kilometers.

    Head developer of the complex security is Corporation space systems of a special purpose "Comet" that appeared recently in the concern PVO "Almaz-Antey". The project involves dozens of Russian defense industry enterprises. The main issue when creating system experts, sustainment of sensors. Placed under water sonars must be sufficiently compact and unobtrusive, capturing the noise at a great distance. And diet have to provide energy not only them but also the equipment space communications.

    - American and British nuclear submarines were active in the Arctic during the cold war - in particular, went into the sea, washing the Russian coast. In recent years their activity is associated with the advent of the Northern fleet of the newest submarines of project "Borei" and "Yasen". Also we must not forget that American submarines armed with cruise missiles "Tomahawk" with a range of 1.5 thousand kilometers, noted historian of the Navy Dmitry Boltenkov.

    In August 2014, the Northern fleet found in the Barents sea, submarine, US Navy class "Virginia". After a 27-minute pursuit surface ships and anti-submarine aircraft left the area.

    Half a century ago, the United States has deployed in North Atlantic for several lines of anti-submarine sonar system SOSUS. Placed on the line Greenland - Iceland - UK underwater sensor was used to track Soviet submarines. However, the system was imperfect and could only find subs for the first and second generations. Moreover, the Soviet submariners quickly learned how to cheat the enemy "ears": for example, they overcome the barrier under the bottom of a merchant ship. In the 90-ies during the test, the coordinates of modern low-noise submarines built the ellipse size 216х90 km. Now part of the sonar SOSUS mothballed.

    The shortcomings of the American system will be taken into account in creation of Russian one.


    https://rg.ru/2016/07/20/rossiia-sozdast-sistemu-ohrany-arktiki.html


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    Osa boats vs Israeli navy

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:55 pm

    What was the reason the Osa boats of Egypt perform so poorly against the Israeli navy ?
    And during the cold war if the performance of Osa boats was so appalling against MGB of westers navies what were the primary means of countering enemy MGB in the Soviet navy
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  kvs on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:19 am

    nastle77 wrote:What was the reason the Osa boats of Egypt perform so poorly against the Israeli navy ?
    And during the cold war if the performance of Osa boats was so appalling against MGB of westers navies what were the primary means of countering enemy MGB in the Soviet navy

    Perhaps the competence of the people operating those boats may have something to do with how they "perform".
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:40 am

    take into account that Israel was probably more or less prepared cause they were hit before hand by the missiles. At the same time too, they were deploying more CIWS for their ships. Of course that doesn't cause 100% protection but as you said, depending on competence, they could have saturated the attack.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  nastle77 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:32 pm

    sepheronx wrote:take into account that Israel was probably more or less prepared cause they were hit before hand by the missiles.  At the same time too, they were deploying more CIWS for their ships.  Of course that doesn't cause 100% protection but as you said, depending on competence, they could have saturated the attack.
    could it also be that the Termits export version had no IR versions and had down graded seekers ?
    Also it seemed like most OSA were lost when they expended their missiles and were caught by israeli boats and were dispatched by 76 mm gunfire

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    naval SAM

    Post  nastle77 on Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:35 pm

    Could the following naval SAM systems target/engage multiple missiles/planes at the same time ?
    4k33 OSA M
    Uragan
    S-300F Fort
    3K95 kinzal naval version of Tor

    the sea sparrow installed on NATO destroyers and cruisers can it engagae multiple targets
    thanks
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:07 am

    Depends on the mounts.

    A single OSA mount can guide two missiles to one target.

    Klintok (Naval TOR) can guide 8 missiles to four targets.

    Regarding naval models of S-300 I suspect the same or better... ie 12 missiles to 6 targets for Fort, Uragan would be dependant on the number of antenna arrays but could be up to 4 targets with 8 missiles.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  jhelb on Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:58 am

    GarryB wrote:Depends on the mounts.

    A single OSA mount can guide two missiles to one target.

    Klintok (Naval TOR) can guide 8 missiles to four targets.

    Regarding naval models of S-300 I suspect the same or better... ie 12 missiles to 6 targets for Fort, Uragan would be dependant on the number of antenna arrays but could be up to 4 targets with 8 missiles.

    Assuming I am an OSA operator (or for that matter a S-400, BUK, Tor operator) and I establish a radar lock on an adversary aircraft.

    Will the pilot of the adversary aircraft get to know that I have established a radar lock before I have fired the missile or will he get to know that only when I have fired the missile?
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:55 am

    This being a naval weapons thread I assume you mean the naval model of OSA, in which case the vast majority of targets you will lock will be anti ship missiles that wont know they are being targeted.

    A helo or close by aircraft will detect your search radar scanning for them and once detected it will detect the tracking radar (which operates at a different frequency) tracking them.

    That will tell they they are likely under attack.

    The tracking radar continually updates the precise location of the target while also tracking the outgoing missile and sending course corrections to that missile.

    New models would allow optical tracking of the target and missile but that is not all weather day night and its accuracy and range performance is not as good as radar but it is at least passive.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:50 pm

    Are anti ship missiles like Harpoon able to hit targets when they are hidden by land or islands e.g in the earlier version of harpoon if launched from the sea on one side of a peninsula can it travEl overland and hit a naval target at sea on the other side of the peninsula? Provided this target is within its max range e.g of 60nm
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:25 am

    Very few have the radar range to detect their target at launch and so the general location is given to the missile and it flys to the target location and turns on its own radar to scan for the target.

    Some can be fed the targets general location, while others have to climb and scan for the target and then drop down to very low altitude for the flight to the target area.

    As long as the island is not between the missile and the target when it turns on its radar to scan for the target it should be able to fly past islands and other items to get to a position to scan for the target.

    Some longer range missiles can have way points so they actually approach their target from an unexpected direction.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:Very few have the radar range to detect their target at launch and so the general location is given to the missile and it flys to the target location and turns on its own radar to scan for the target.

    Some can be fed the targets general location, while others have to climb and scan for the target and then drop down to very low altitude for the flight to the target area.

    As long as the island is not between the missile and the target when it turns on its radar to scan for the target it should be able to fly past islands and other items to get to a position to scan for the target.

    Some longer range missiles can have way points so they actually approach their target from an unexpected direction.


    Some new missiles have GPS guidance to hit the target in its base. Because their are lot of buildings and ships there, they can't use radar.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:21 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Very few have the radar range to detect their target at launch and so the general location is given to the missile and it flys to the target location and turns on its own radar to scan for the target.

    Some can be fed the targets general location, while others have to climb and scan for the target and then drop down to very low altitude for the flight to the target area.

    As long as the island is not between the missile and the target when it turns on its radar to scan for the target it should be able to fly past islands and other items to get to a position to scan for the target.

    Some longer range missiles can have way points so they actually approach their target from an unexpected direction.


    Some new missiles have GPS guidance to hit the target in its base. Because their are lot of buildings and ships there, they can't use radar.
    did the 80's version of harpoon have that feature ?

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