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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    George1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:07 pm

    Russian Navy to Receive New Deep-Water Torpedo in 2018

    The new Russian torpedo will reportedly be able to reach speed more than 60 knots and hit targets at a range of over 35 miles.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The tests of Russia's advanced deep-water homing torpedo named Futlyar (Fizik-2) will wrap up this year and the Russian Navy will introduce it into service in 2018, a defense industry source told Sputnik on Friday.

    "The tests of the newest Futlyar torpedo — an improved Fizik — are being carried out successfully. They are planned to be completed by the end of 2017. The Russian Navy will put it into service in 2018," the source said.


    The source added that Futlyar torpedoes had improved systems of homing, remote control and its effective distance had also been increased if to compare with Fizik torpedoes.

    According to the publicly available sources, Futlyar would be capable to reach speed more than 60 knots and depth of more than 540 yards and would be able to hit targets at a range of over 35 miles.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051435733-russian-navy-futlyar-fozok-torpedo/


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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:32 am

    OK so it is about a navy weapon so I understand knots... but WTF are they talking about yards and miles for... this is the 21st C not the fkin dark ages...

    According to the publicly available sources, Futlyar would be capable to reach speed more than 60 knots and depth of more than 540 yards and would be able to hit targets at a range of over 35 miles.

    Why don't they tell us how many Arshins in 540 yards...


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    Benya

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Benya on Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:12 pm

    Arsenal Machine Building Plant to deliver 22 AK-176MA Naval Gun Systems to Russian Navy

    A total of 22 upgraded AK-176MA guns designed for the advanced Project 22160 patrol ship and Project 22800 corvette will be delivered to Russia’s Navy before 2020, the press office of Russia’s Arsenal Machine-Building Plant said.


    The AK-176MA naval gun system prototype. Picture by JSC "Arsenal Machine-Building Plant". (via flotprom.ru)

    "Before 2020, the Arsenal Machine-Engineering Plant is expected to deliver 22 upgraded AK-176MA Mod. 01 guns to the Navy," the press office said.

    "The first upgraded gun has been dispatched to the Zelenodolsk Shipyard [in the Volga area] to be mounted on the Project 22160 lead ship Vasil Bykov,"
    the press office added.

    The plant developed the upgraded version of the gun on its own initiative. The upgraded gun has completed field tests.

    "All requirements indicated by the Navy in the tactical specifications have been met. The AK-176MA gun’s laying accuracy and grouping of shots have more than doubled, the laying speed has been increased considerably and the weight has been decreased to less than nine tons," the press office said.

    The advanced AK-176MA gun is designed for littoral ships and is expected to be mounted on the Project 22160, 22800, 12418 and 23550 vessels.

    It can be also used to replace obsolete artillery systems of ships built earlier.

    "Russia’s Navy has received the advanced 76.2mm shipborne gun comparable with foreign-made analogs and superior to them by some characteristics," the press office added.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/march-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5002-arsenal-machine-building-plant-to-deliver-22-ak-176ma-naval-gun-systems-to-russian-navy.html



    It can be also used to replace obsolete artillery systems of ships built earlier.

    Well, AFAIK there are a multitude of Russian Navy ships currently in service that are using AK-176/AK-176M guns (most corvettes and some Ropucha-class landing ships), but I think that rearming them with this new AK-176MA would be only practical if they would be kept in service for at least 10-15 years, but that is highly unlikely.

    New guns/weapon systems should only be equipped on newer ships in my opinion.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:50 pm


    ...
    The advanced AK-176MA gun is designed for littoral ships and is expected to be mounted on the Project 22160, 22800, 12418 and 23550 vessels. ...

    OK so we have:

    2x 12418 (those 2 with Uran missiles they are finishing)

    2x 23550

    6x 22160

    That leaves 12 for 22800 so we can hope to see 12 Karakurts laid down until 2020. Just my guesstimate...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:28 am

    The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

    At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

    It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too.

    They have developed guided 57mm shells so guided 76.2mm shells should be fairly easy to make too. that would allow greater engagement ranges against point targets like Anti ship missiles and other threats.

    If some ragheads try to use a boat laden with explosives to attack a Russian ship there is nothing like a 76.2mm shell smacking them with twice the mass of a 57mm shell. (76.2mm shells have 6kg projectiles, while the 57mm rounds are 2.8kg projectiles...)


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

    At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

    It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too........

    Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

    Pretty soon all missile boats of the Fleet will be replaced with Karakurts. They already have 2 shipyards beavering away at them at full speed. Should they add third into the mix we could see plenty of light ships going into early retirement.
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    Isos

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:09 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

    At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

    It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too........

    Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

    Pretty soon all missile boats of the Fleet will be replaced with Karakurts. They already have 2 shipyards beavering away at them at full speed. Should they add third into the mix we could see plenty of light ships going into early retirement.

    Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun. Saar 5 doesn't have gun, just Phalanx and barak missiles. A new luncher for naval Tor can carry much more than the version on Udaloy which are very well protected but takes lot of space. Moreover, they are planning to buid them in great numbers so buikding one with gun and one without gun can do the job, so that both of them protect the other with its own systems. The guns for naval threaths and the tor against missiles and helicopters.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:17 pm

    Isos wrote:.....

    Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun. Saar 5 doesn't have gun, just Phalanx and barak missiles. A new luncher for naval Tor can carry much more than the version on Udaloy which are very well protected but takes lot of space. Moreover, they are planning to buid them in great numbers so buikding one with gun and one without gun can do the job, so that both of them protect the other with its own systems. The guns for naval threaths and the tor against missiles and helicopters.

    Not a bad idea, they would get some good AA coverage on the cheap. Karakurts and Buyans are bit light on AA segment.

    In fact, replacing guns with AA missiles and old AShM with Urans on those Soviet era boats would be very quick and cost effective option. Small ships like those don't really need guns since these days they will be used as support for other vessels anyway.
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    Benya

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Benya on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    OK so we have:

    2x 12418 (those 2 with Uran missiles they are finishing)

    2x 23550

    6x 22160

    That leaves 12 for 22800 so we can hope to see 12 Karakurts laid down until 2020. Just my guesstimate...

    Good estimate thumbsup It totally makes sense.

    GarryB wrote:The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

    At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

    Clear for me. Since it's lighter, it can be mounted on lighter vessels.

    GarryB wrote:It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too.

    ... but not ships like Molniya/Tarantul-class corvettes and older Ropucha-class landing ships, which are/will be nearing decommissioning.

    GarryB wrote:If some ragheads try to use a boat laden with explosives to attack a Russian ship there is nothing like a 76.2mm shell smacking them with twice the mass of a 57mm shell. (76.2mm shells have 6kg projectiles, while the 57mm rounds are 2.8kg projectiles...)

    Well, a quick-firing 57mm gun like the Mk 110 made by BAE Systems, with airburst ammo would do the job quite good as well, a 76mm would be quite an overkill against a small motorboat.

    PapaDragon wrote:Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

    Pretty soon all missile boats of the Fleet will be replaced with Karakurts. They already have 2 shipyards beavering away at them at full speed. Should they add third into the mix we could see plenty of light ships going into early retirement.

    Maybe my estimate is a litlle bit far-fetched, but I think that if 3 shipyards would start spewing out Karakurts, at least 18-24 of them would be made for 2020-2024, and of course, they could (and hopefully will) build more, since there are plenty of Tarantul and Grisha corvettes to replace.

    Isos wrote:Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun. Saar 5 doesn't have gun, just Phalanx and barak missiles. A new luncher for naval Tor can carry much more than the version on Udaloy which are very well protected but takes lot of space. Moreover, they are planning to buid them in great numbers so buikding one with gun and one without gun can do the job, so that both of them protect the other with its own systems. The guns for naval threaths and the tor against missiles and helicopters.

    PapaDragon wrote:Not a bad idea, they would get some good AA coverage on the cheap. Karakurts and Buyans are bit light on AA segment.

    In fact, replacing guns with AA missiles and old AShM with Urans on those Soviet era boats would be very quick and cost effective option. Small ships like those don't really need guns since these days they will be used as support for other vessels anyway.

    In my opinion, an AK-630M2 "Duet" (which Buyan-M corvettes already have), and a naval version of the Tor SAM system (not the "Kinzhal" one) would be enough for Karakurts and Buyans, "Palash"/"Palma" are better for larger ships (frigates/destroyers/cruisers).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:54 am

    Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

    Depends on how long they want to keep their older vessels in service for... there is still a gap with larger vessels anyway so keeping a few extra lighter vessels makes sense.

    These new corvettes can perform many missions previously performed by Frigates or larger vessels so the new corvettes can supplement the older larger vessels while the older corvettes continue the work they are doing for a bit longer.

    Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun.

    Would prefer them to put both big guns and missiles on their ships. The whole focus is standardisation, so arming some with missiles and some with guns defeats the purpose of standardisation.

    Newer missiles are much more capable than older models so not having ten times more missiles is not as bad as it appears.

    In fact, replacing guns with AA missiles and old AShM with Urans on those Soviet era boats would be very quick and cost effective option. Small ships like those don't really need guns since these days they will be used as support for other vessels anyway.

    Combat experience seems to suggest that having more guns is better and not worse. After the Falklands war Soviet vessels were noted to have a lot more HMG positions around the super structure and bridges... I doubt taking away medium and heavy guns is a good idea.

    Just like I think it is important to keep a 30mm cannon on the PAK FA, Su-35, and MiG-35.

    Clear for me. Since it's lighter, it can be mounted on lighter vessels.

    The Soviets/Russians already fitted light vessels with heavy guns... the Pauk class for example would probably have had a 57mm gun if it was a western development.

    The new gun mounts means they can fit 100mm guns in ships that previously carried 76.2mm guns already.

    ... but not ships like Molniya/Tarantul-class corvettes and older Ropucha-class landing ships, which are/will be nearing decommissioning.

    For ships serving 5-10 or more years it makes sense... for ships about to be scrapped of course it makes no sense.

    Well, a quick-firing 57mm gun like the Mk 110 made by BAE Systems, with airburst ammo would do the job quite good as well, a 76mm would be quite an overkill against a small motorboat.

    Anything too small to be engaged by a 76.2mm gun can be engaged with 30mm or small arms fire.

    since there are plenty of Tarantul and Grisha corvettes to replace.

    They likely wont replace old models one for one...

    In my opinion, an AK-630M2 "Duet" (which Buyan-M corvettes already have), and a naval version of the Tor SAM system (not the "Kinzhal" one) would be enough for Karakurts and Buyans,

    I agree, but I think a medium calibre gun is more useful than just adding more missiles. The latest model of the TOR system is rather capable...


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    George1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:43 pm

    "Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:32 pm

    George1 wrote:
    "Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

    So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

    Even after all this time?
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:52 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    "Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

    So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

    Even after all this time?

    Sound like Borisov is reminding Almaz-Antey that this isn't the U.S and they're not General Dynamics nor Lockheed Martin.

    miroslav

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  miroslav on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:52 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    "Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

    So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

    Even after all this time?

    I thought that the Sthil system was tried and tested. We saw plenty of videos it being used and the core of the system is in use for the last 25 years, I presume that the "only" things that the new Shtil system introduced was better and faster electronics, better missile maneuvering and tracking and vertical launch capability. But all of it is based on a platform that works for some time now.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  miroslav on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:54 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    "Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

    So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

    Even after all this time?

    Maybe the statement was just taken out of context.

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    Redut and Shtil Naval Systems

    Post  calripson on Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:58 pm

    There is ample evidence that there are significant operational problems with the Redut naval system and apparently Shtil as well. This begs the question: are the deployed Stereguschy class ships deployed with non-operational SAM systems ? It is a little odd that the land based systems appear to work but not the naval versions.
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    Benya

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Benya on Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:49 pm

    Analysis: Russian Navy Tests Tor-M2KM air defense missile system from Admiral Grigorovich Frigate

    The Russian Navy is testing the Tor (NATO reporting name: SA-15 Gauntlet) surface-to-air missile (SAM) system. The military is trying to plug the holes in ship air defense with the advanced small-size SAM system, expert Sergei Ishchenko writes in an article on the Svobodnaya Pressa news website.


    Launch of a 9M331M surface to air missile from the self-contained combat module 9K331MKM short-range missile system Tor-M2KM, placed on the helicopter deck of the head frigate Admiral Grigorovich of Project 11356. Screenshot from "Russia 24" video (via bmpd.livejournal.com).

    At the IDEX 2017 arms show, Russian corporation Almaz-Antei showed an interesting advert video. It turned out that it had been shot in October 2016 by the Black Sea Fleet that was testing a new weapon, the Tor-M2KM SAM system. The self-contained fighting module of the Tor-M2KM, manufactured by Kupol in the city of Izhevsk, was mounted on the helipad of the Admiral Grigorovich frigate, the Project 11356 lead ship (NATO reporting name: Admiral Grigorovich-class). It was loaded onto the deck by means of an ordinary wharf crane and then was fixed in position with steel chains like a helicopter. It launched SAMs at simulated cruise missiles, and the tests were a success, judging by the video.

    Initially, the mobile Tor SAM system was being developed solely as a provider of air defense for army divisions on the march and in position in the 1980s. Since the transporter-erector-launcher-and-radar (TELAR) vehicle proved to be very good, soon the Navy wanted it too. Its ship-based short-range version, designated Kinzhal (SA-N-9 Gauntlet), was derived. It is able to deal with any up-to-date air threats at a range of 1.5-12 km and has been installed on all Project 1155 (Udaloy II) antisubmarine warfare destroyers, Admiral Kuznetsov (Kuznetsov-class) aircraft carrier and Pyotr Veliky (Kirov-class) nuclear-powered guided missile battlecruiser.

    The Kinzhal SAM system is bulky enough (its on-deck segment alone measures 113 sq.m) and rather heavy (41.5 tons) and has a crew of 13. On the other hand, the Tor-M2KM’s fighting module weighs almost thrice as little - mere 15 tons. According to its manufacturer, one needs only any horizontal platform 2.5 m wide and at least 7.1 m long without any mechanical or hydraulic actuators to link the Tor-M2KM to the platform. The module has all it takes to fight - the special equipment, computer system, radar, optics, missiles, operator compartment, self-contained and backup systems with an organic fuel store, life support, ventilation and air conditioning systems.

    In other words, the Tor-M2KM can be mounted in no time not only almost on any surface combatant of a rather modest displacement but on a truck as well, or, say, on the roof of a high-rise. This is granted by the module’s complete self-contained operating capability afforded by its organic power supply in the form of a gas-turbine power plant.


    Russia 24 video

    What is more, the SAM system is actually a very compact fighting robotic system, because the automation of its operation has been maximized. Only fancy, it goes from standby to full alert in 3 min., has an organic radar capable of acquiring 144 air targets and simultaneously tracking the 20 most dangerous ones, its crew of only two have only to mark one target as the priority for engagement as the module begins to autotrack three more within the field of fire and gives them the good news - a SAM each.

    The maximum range of the Tor-M2KM’s missiles is 3 km longer than that of the Kinzhal’s SAMs. This is important in the lightning-fast battles against enemy aircraft and missiles. The kill probability featured by the Tor-M2KM’s SAMs is at least 0.98.

    Thus, this is a radically sophisticated and up-to-date ship-borne AD weapon. However, what is it designed for? Presumably, the answer lies in the participants in the trials onboard the Admiral Grigorovich. According to an official news release, engineers and designers from the Severnoye and Zelenodolsk design bureaux are taking part in the tests along with personnel of Kupol and the Navy Shipbuilding and Armament Research Institute. Let us take a closer look at the fact.

    Now, the Zelenodolsk Design Bureau’s priority is to build a large series of Project 21631 (Buyan-M-class) guided missile corvettes.

    The Buyan-M was designed for the Black Sea Fleet and Caspian Flotilla. Its purpose initially was to guard and defend the country’s exclusive economic zones. Since it was believed that it would not have to operate too far away from the shore, the Buyan-M was made capable of navigating rivers as well. The ship’s narrow beam (11 m) and low draught (2.6 m) enable her to negotiate the locks of the Volga-Baltic Waterway easily. Her waterjets are not designed for high-seas operations either. In October 2016, Buyan-Ms headed for the Baltic Fleet around Europe. The cruise through the Atlantic highlighted both the strengths and weaknesses of the class. Their total vulnerability to air attack became obvious. Certainly, the designers who conceived the class for riverine and sea operations believed that strong air defense was unnecessary for it. Hence, to save room for the Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) missiles, they limited themselves to the fitting of the Buyan-M with a pair of pedestal-mounted launchers of the 3M47 Gibka system.

    Hence, it is a natural that the advent of new missions for the Buyan-M fleet has made the designers rack their brains how to make the ships more capable in terms of air defense, and the Admiral Grigorovich-tested compact self-contained fighting module of the Tor-M2KM SAM system may well come in handy.

    The assumption is bolstered by the Central Design Bureau of Apparatus Engineering having developed a cutting-edge active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar specifically for the Buyan-M. However, a combination of an AESA radar and the Gibka short-range SAM system would be nonsense onboard the Buyan-M corvette. However, the AESA radar providing air defense side by side with the Tor-M2KM would be quite another kettle of fish.

    Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly) SAM system. The problem has been publicly admitted by Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov the other day in the course of the Unified Military and Industry Materiel Delivery Reporting Day, expert Sergei Ishchenko reminds in his article published by the Svobodnaya Pressa news portal.

    Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/5084-analysis-russian-navy-tests-tor-m2km-air-defense-missile-system-from-admiral-grigorovich-frigate.html



    Looks great thumbsup

    Before reading this report, I have never known that the Kinzhal is this bulky and heavy. Plus, I have heard it from many sources (in another topic, it was even mentioned by some of you guys), that it is plagued with many issues.

    In my opinion, "navalizing" the Tor would be the best bet of the Russian Navy in this regard. On smaller vessels, one combat unit (launcher) located at the aft of the ship, and its target aquisition (the rotating one mounted atop the regular Tor system) radar mounted on the ship's main mast would be fine. Larger ships (frigates, destroyers and cruisers) could have two launchers (one facing forward, one facing aft (backwards) plus the target aquisition radar on the main mast would do the job.

    This "navalized" Tor could easily replace the Kinzhal and the naval version of the Osa.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:38 pm


    1) Awesome for Buyans (and Karakurts) thumbsup

    2 This part:

    Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly)

    Tor is nowhere near good enough replacement for Shtil. Like comparing handgun with sniper.

    And how the hell can one ship be accepted into service and even participate in freakin' war (doing second tour as we speak) while other identical ship can still be stuck with faulty AA system? I don't get it... confused
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    Isos

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:23 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    1) Awesome for Buyans (and Karakurts) thumbsup

    2 This part:

    Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly)

    Tor is nowhere near good enough replacement for Shtil. Like comparing handgun with sniper.

    And how the hell can one ship be accepted into service and even participate in freakin' war (doing second tour as we speak) while other identical ship can still be stuck with faulty AA system? I don't get it... confused

    Probably erros in the construction of this particular system. The system is used by many ships including retired Sovromenys (older version but still the same system).
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    Benya

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Benya on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    1) Awesome for Buyans (and Karakurts) thumbsup

    2 This part:

    Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly)

    Tor is nowhere near good enough replacement for Shtil. Like comparing handgun with sniper.

    And how the hell can one ship be accepted into service and even participate in freakin' war (doing second tour as we speak) while other identical ship can still be stuck with faulty AA system? I don't get it... confused

    Indeed. When I posted this article, I was a bit puzzled about this too.

    Even if we just look at their land-based counterparts (the Buk and the normal Tor respectively), it is clear as day that they are not in the same league. Tor is a SHORAD system, while the Buk/Shtil are medium range SAM systems. If they would ever want to replace the Stihl...

    ... That's where the Poliment-Redut would come into play, but with its quite long range (120 or so kms) it would be an absolute overkill, so the most logical step would be to outright modernize the Stihl, and more important, to correct its faults.
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    George1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:36 pm

    Russia’s seaborne air defense system to receive three types of missiles

    Russia’s seaborne missile complex will be fitted out with three types of missiles unified with the S-350 Vityaz ground-based air defense system

    MOSCOW, April 24. /TASS/. Russia’s Poliment-Redut seaborne missile complex will be fitted out with three types of missiles unified with the S-350 Vityaz ground-based air defense system, Almaz-Antey Aerospace Defense Group Chief Designer Pavel Sozinov said on Monday.

    "The Poliment-Redut-R R&D work is focused on developing small-, medium-and intermediate-range missiles for arming the relevant ships," he said in an interview published in Natsionalnaya Oborona (National Defense) magazine.

    "Poliment-Redut surface-to-air missiles have been unified with the S-350 Vityaz air defense system," the chief designer said.

    All new-generation missiles are being developed with active homing heads and the inertial guidance system and feature very high maneuverable characteristics for hitting the entire range of attack means, Sozinov said.

    This year, Almaz-Antey defense contractor will celebrate the 15th anniversary of its establishment.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/942858


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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:39 am

    I always wondered....  

    Both the New or Not so new Shtil-1 and the New Redut VLS SAM system is supposed to take up the Medium Range Air Defense role since S-300F/FMs or S-400Fs have taken the role of long Range AD....  

    Why work on two different systems that fulfill the same role?  Seems redundant to me unless both missiles have different roles and capabilites (as of now, it seems that both fulfill the same role as Medium Range AD Systems with similar performances (Redut on paper seems to have better performance than the older Shtil-1).....  

    Why not instead of working out the issues of 2 different systems...  Just focus on the Redut system's issues so it then can be used to replace the older Shtils and Standardize the Medium range SAM systems of the RuN for future Vessels and Refits?






    Also....  

    Is this really what is being proposed for the Nakhimov Refit?



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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:50 am

    Interesting... my guess is that that would be Morfei... or 9M100 as the short range missile and the small and medium sized small missiles of 9M96 and 9M96E missiles (40km and 120km max ranges respectively).

    The Shtil and Redut are based on different families of missiles with different roles.

    The Shtil evolved from the SA-10/SA-17 family of missiles that evolved from the SA-6 mobile medium land based SAM, while the Redut is an evolution of the smaller missiles developed for the S-400 system that have now branched off into the S-350 family of missiles.

    All very capable systems evolved from previous generation mature systems.

    I would suggest that the problem is with the vertical launched Shtil-1 and not the previous Shtil SAM system that has been operational since the 1980s.

    And regarding those images of upgrades for Orlan class ships... I suspect fan art.


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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:Interesting... my guess is that that would be Morfei... or 9M100 as the short range missile and the small and medium sized small missiles of 9M96 and 9M96E missiles (40km and 120km max ranges respectively).

    The Shtil and Redut are based on different families of missiles with different roles.

    The Shtil evolved from the SA-10/SA-17 family of missiles that evolved from the SA-6 mobile medium land based SAM, while the Redut is an evolution of the smaller missiles developed for the S-400 system that have now branched off into the S-350 family of missiles.

    All very capable systems evolved from previous generation mature systems.

    I would suggest that the problem is with the vertical launched Shtil-1 and not the previous Shtil SAM system that has been operational since the 1980s.

    And regarding those images of upgrades for Orlan class ships... I suspect fan art.

    Well i understand that they are based of different family of missiles but just seems redundant to have 2 SAM systems of similar capabilities....    
    Shtil-1 if i understand was advertised of having a range of 50KM while the redut's 9M96 is 40-50KM (along with the 9M100 which is most likely missiles for Point Defense cause of its Very short range)....    
    Unless the Reduts are going to exclusively or majorily only run the troublesome 9M96E/E2 Variants....  

    *If thats the case then i can potentially see a Four tier AD network for Capital ships (Cruisers and Destroyers [Because Russia has an issuefetish for Gigantism])

    • S-400Fs (250KM), Ultra Long Range
    • Redut (120KM), Long Range
    • Shtil-1 (50KM), Medium Range
    • Various PD Missile Systems (OSA-MA, 9M100s) or CIWS (Palash/Kortik, AK-630M, Pantsir-S), Short Range


    *And a three Tier AD network for Medium Ships (Light Destroyers [If russia will ever employ DDs like other nations XD], Frigates)

    • Redut (120KM), Long Range
    • Shtil-1 (50KM), Medium Range
    • Various PD Missile Systems (9M100s) or CIWS (Palash/Kortik, AK-630M, Pantsir-S), Short Range




    As for Issues, At this point whenever i mention Shtil, I'd always refer to the Shtil-1 because well it is newer (not by much at this point because 2004) and more of relevance to the modern day...
    The Original Baseline Shtil is obselete imo hence irrelevant at this point....
    I hope they sort out the issues with the Shtil-1 ASAP tho or this is going be a major setback for the AD capabilities of the current RuN...
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    Isos

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:24 pm

    Russian navy isn't going to use shtil. It was already mounted on grigorovitvh which were upgraded of old soviet frigate meant for Indian navy. The fact is that they knew Gorshkov will take time to be ready so they ordered some of them.

    The only other ships that can use shtil are Sovromenys which use older version. They can be upgraded with VLS (Chinese are doing this) but they won't as they will be replaced by gorshkovs.

    But russia's main navy anti air defence systems will be Redut (Gorshkov and Steregouchy), and future S-400F ( for destroyers and cruiser, which is still not ready for naval use) and pantsir and tor for smaller vessels.

    Concerning Nakhimov, I don't think it ill get Redut which is too "small" for such a ship. The VLS can't take bigger missiles like 48N6E, just 9M96. An upgrade to S-300FM is more usefull while S-400F is not ready, at least I never heard of a naval S-400. Redut is more navale S-350 than, like some articles say, a naval S-400.

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