Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

magnumcromagnon wrote:With talks about complicating defense, and attacking from unexpected directions, so whats the feasibility of a hybrid cruise/Ashm/torpedo system? A weapon with one part of the range is dedicated to aerial flight and one part is dedicated to underwater strike and vise versa? I'm saying like Kh-35 having something like 300 km range, a modified version could have 250 km dedicated to aerial flight, slows down and falls in to the water, and the second stage as a torpedo with 50 km range. Maybe the reverse could be done, where torpedo has a second stage, where flies like a Ashm. Maybe a rocket powered version could have supersonic speed to reduce flight time, then slows down and descends in the water, where the torpedo stage uses the rocket fuel with a cavitating nose, to allow super-cavitation water speed.

They already have that; the Vodopad/Veter torpedo-missile-torpedo

flamming_python wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:With talks about complicating defense, and attacking from unexpected directions, so whats the feasibility of a hybrid cruise/Ashm/torpedo system? A weapon with one part of the range is dedicated to aerial flight and one part is dedicated to underwater strike and vise versa? I'm saying like Kh-35 having something like 300 km range, a modified version could have 250 km dedicated to aerial flight, slows down and falls in to the water, and the second stage as a torpedo with 50 km range. Maybe the reverse could be done, where torpedo has a second stage, where flies like a Ashm. Maybe a rocket powered version could have supersonic speed to reduce flight time, then slows down and descends in the water, where the torpedo stage uses the rocket fuel with a cavitating nose, to allow super-cavitation water speed.

They already have that; the Vodopad/Veter torpedo-missile-torpedo

I'm aware of those systems. If I recall right, the Vodopad/Veter systems are really for ASW, not exactly what I'm talking about. The system that I'm suggesting is for surface ships, the purpose of surprise and complication of defense. Shot out in to the water like a torpedo some way, and then fly out the rest to the target like a proper Ashm, or an alternate system that flies a significant distance like a Ashm, but engages the target underwater as a torpedo.

magnumcromagnon wrote:
I'm aware of those systems. If I recall right, the Vodopad/Veter systems are really for ASW, not exactly what I'm talking about. The system that I'm suggesting is for surface ships, the purpose of surprise and complication of defense. Shot out in to the water like a torpedo some way, and then fly out the rest to the target like a proper Ashm, or an alternate system that flies a significant distance like a Ashm, but engages the target underwater as a torpedo.

like Rastrub-B, with 90km range, dual purpose?

Shot out in to the water like a torpedo some way, and then fly out the rest to the target like a proper Ashm, or an alternate system that flies a significant distance like a Ashm, but engages the target underwater as a torpedo.

To what advantage?

Very simply the advantage of flying through the air is that you can get to very high speeds or very long range depending upon the propulsion options... but not normally both.

Through water you have the advantage of stealth and the difficulty of defending from such an attack.

Most sub launched anti ship cruise missiles are launched from underwater and then fly to the target... SS-N-19, SS-N-7, SS-N-9, Kh-35, Club, and Calibr, etc, etc.

The SS-N-14 flies to the target area and then either drops a torpedo for use against subs or retains the torpedo and hits the target as a missile for ship targets.

Mixing operating environments just complicates design for little real gain... those Soviet missiles we see launched from a torpedo tube on a ship that go into the water and swim for a bit and the blast out of the water on a rocket powered booster motor to deliver a torpedo close to a target sub or ship were designed that way because they were originally intended to be launched by subs and start off under water, so it is easier to launch them into the water first and have them blast off into the air and then land in the water again...

The new models to do the same thing... ie deliver torpedos to distances away from the ship by ballistic rocket don't launch from torpedo tubes into the water first... the Medvedevka and the 91ER1 just launch ballistic rockets from ship based launchers (a dedicated system for Medvedka, and the UKSK system for the 91ER1).

Probably the cleverest use of a mix of propulsions would be the supersonic Club... flight in air can be long range and subsonic, or short range and supersonic, but the Club combines the long range of a subsonic cruise missile with the defence penetration performance of a supersonic rocket powered missile.

Next gen anti ship missiles will likely just use scramjet propulsion, which offers rocket level speeds with more efficient jet level weights of fuel requirements...

His idea is not bad. A 50km+ anti-ship torpedo brought to the target by some low-flying missile would complicate the defence of a ship.

Hole wrote:His idea is not bad. A 50km+ anti-ship torpedo brought to the target by some low-flying missile would complicate the defence of a ship.

Yeah, my idea is that if the Ashm gets detected, it'll eventually 'disappear' off the radar (which may sow panic and confusion), and then BOOM, the ship is cut in half! The primary target would be destroy class ships, and the defense complication comes in the fact that you force a ship to be just as good at ASW (both the defense suite as well as the training of the crew) as they are with Ashm's. The first stage is a slow burning cruise missile tubofan, and the last stage is a rocket powered torpedo with a super-cavitating nose. Similarly I would like to see a torpedo (or a UUV drone) that get close enough to a boat (100-50km) and launches a rocket powered Ashm out of the water at Mach 3+ speed.

There is the MDS-1 mine which is a torpedo fitted with a bottom-mine or the PMT-1 which is a mine fitted with a torpedo to attack subs. Both could be developed/enlarged to carry a Kh-35.

His idea is not bad. A 50km+ anti-ship torpedo brought to the target by some low-flying missile would complicate the defence of a ship.

A torpedo is a substantial item and a long range torpedo even more so... which means what we are actually talking about is a small light short range torpedo... which are generally most effective against submarines.

A torpedo big enough to have a decent range and payload punch to sink a decent sized ship would be very long, very big, and very heavy and would not balance well on the end of a rocket.

Lets just say that such a long range torpedo would be about 53cm wide and about 8 metres long so to deliver that by air to a target you will need to bolt a fairly enormous solid fuelled rocket engine on the back... a jet powered weapon would need a huge solid rocket booster anyway and a huge wing just to fly.

Most ships could probably defend themselves from ballistically launched mach 2-2.5 missiles better than they could defend against a torpedo that spends its entire time in the water.

The point is that the few weapons that consist of ballistically fired small torpedoes are for use against subs with no air defence systems or radar so really they don't hear anything coming... the weapon just splashes into the water a few kms from their position and then the detect the running scanning torpedo when it is in its final attack mode.

That makes sense because flying at mach 2 for 40kms means it covers the space to the detected sub quickly and for the target sub silently.

For use against a ship however it is an obvious and fairly straight forward target during its ballistic flight and to get within 3-5km of the ship puts it well within range of most medium range SAM systems.

The multi stage system only really makes sense in specific cases and it really depends on the targets involved to make it worth while.

Ie sub means no air defences and small torpedo which means not so huge overall weapon size.

For the supersonic Club, the subsonic cruise missile portion gives excellent flight range at a low speed but at a low radar evading altitude... but when actually attacking the target the rocket section accelerates the terminal portion of the missile to mach 3 which gives it the benefits of long range and relative low cost, but with the benefits of good defence penetration performance and terminal effect.

So you end up with a long range weapon with a good chance of penetrating even modern air defences...

The combination is balanced and uses the best features to achieved desired characteristics...

The first stage is a slow burning cruise missile tubofan, and the last stage is a rocket powered torpedo with a super-cavitating nose. Similarly I would like to see a torpedo (or a UUV drone) that get close enough to a boat (100-50km) and launches a rocket powered Ashm out of the water at Mach 3+ speed.

But why bother with the turbofan portion... what about a low noise torpedo that runs at perhaps 20 knots for hours on end that can deliver a nose full of 10-20 rocket propelled torpedo final stage warheads that are independently targeting enemy ships.

An enemy carrier group is making its way across the Pacific or Atlantic... it wont be sailing straight but a huge torpedo with 10-20 rocket powered super cavitating torpedoes in its nose could be launched in the general direction at perhaps 20-30 knots on a roughly intercept course... as it gets close it can move to near the surface and receive satellite information and course corrections to intercept the surface action group... eventually the weapon will get to within a few kms of the enemy ship grouping and it could launch its rocket powered high speed torpedoes at the ships from very close range... perhaps even closing head on with the enemy ships the main torpedo carrier operating at very low speeds now could turn 180 degrees and wait for the enemy ships to sail past and launch an attack from behind... wake homing torpedos or just passive sonar torpedoes chasing the propellers running right in front of them... the carrying main torpedo could simply sink now that it has done its job without risking a much more expensive manned sub... or it could ram one of those propellers in front of it too with its own modest HE payload.

Both could be developed/enlarged to carry a Kh-35.

But would you not agree a torpedo would be more difficult to deal with than a subsonic anti ship missile?

Depends on the ship.

Solution to this debate is a large UUV with the capability to fire torpedos, cruise and anti-ship missiles. And lay mines. You could even "park" a UUV somewhere for weeks or even month, just like a mine.

Modern land based mine fields are very sophisticated things and can be turned on or off depending upon the situation... you could turn it on to allow friendly forces to retreat over it and perhaps even a weak enemy force to move over it and then turn it on... attack the weak enemy force and their main escape route is over a newly activated minefield...

At sea it is a little more complicated but also more interesting... you can include sensors with mines and mine torpedos that give data regarding enemy forces and locations...

The newspaper "Izvestia" under the heading "Nobody had any reliable antitrust" published an interview with the chief designer of JSC "State Research and Production Enterprise" Region "(SNNP" Region ") Konstantin Drobot, who is also the chief designer of the active anti-torpedo protection complex" Paket-E/NK.

Russian engineers were able to solve a problem that for many years was considered impracticable: to create and successfully test a means of destroying torpedoes. Able to bypass the traps and pursue even a maneuvering target, they remain the main danger for ships, and until today, reliable protection against this type of weapon did not exist. However, in Russia, they were able to bring to production the anti-torpedo complex “Paket-E/NK”, which makes ships almost invulnerable. Konstantin Drobot, Chief Designer of the State Research and Production Enterprise “Region” (part of the Tactical Missile Armament Corporation), told Izvestia about the unique features of this system and its combat capabilities.

- For many decades, developments in the field of naval weapons, and especially torpedoes, have been conducted in all countries in the mode of maximum closeness ...

“It’s not just that sailors and weapons developers in all countries call underwater opposition a secret war. Sometimes knowledge of the slightest nuances about the characteristics of a weapon or the tactics of an opponent’s actions can give a decisive advantage. The consequences of this are the loss of life, the loss of expensive ships, the neglect of many years of industry efforts.

- What is special about your development? What distinguishes it from foreign analogues?

- The first purpose of our complex is the direct destruction of the submarines attacking the ship. And the second purpose is to protect the ship from torpedo attacks. Actually, the complex project is not accidental. Until now, the development of individual components - hydroacoustic stations, launchers, control systems and weapons. Then all these subsystems came down on the ship, and complex debugging began. During the modifications had to eliminate a lot of inconsistencies. Here, the fleet command came from the other side: it designated the required parameters of the anti-submarine and anti-torpedo armament complex and demanded that the developers be fully responsible for efficiency.

The main innovation was the automated solution of tasks of anti-torpedo protection. The system independently detects an attacking torpedo, makes calculations, gives target designation and makes a launch. From the commander is required only permission to use weapons.

Abroad for a long time and wrote a lot about the development of counter-torpedoes. This is done by the United States, and Germany, and France, and Italy. But, judging by what we know about the practical results of these developments, our products today have no analogues.

- What subsystems are included in the Paket-E/NK?

- This is a specialized hydro-acoustic target indication station for detecting torpedoes attacking the ship, launchers and weapons directly. They are two types - small torpedo and anti-torpedo. Starting containers for them are identical, visually they can not even be distinguished.

When a threat appears in the form of a submarine or an attacking torpedo, the system detects it, receives target designation, and calculates data. After that, a torpedo or anti-torpedo is launched. They operate autonomously on the principle of “shot - forget”. The complex became, in fact, a universal weapon: they found a torpedo, destroyed it, started to search for a boat, found it, destroyed it.

- How dangerous is the modern torpedo?

- Today, torpedoes have a range of up to 50 km and carry a large supply of explosive - up to 500 kg in TNT equivalent. Undermining such a powerful device under the bottom of the ship leads to its destruction. And now we are in a situation where the possibilities of torpedoes exceed the potential of countermeasures.

At the present stage of development of science and technology, there are only two ways to protect against a torpedo: deceive it with traps or destroy it with the help of an anti-torpedo. Modern torpedoes have already learned to bypass both traps and interferences. A reliable anti-torpedo until today, no one had.

- What is the advantage created by your small torpedoes?

- The placement of a large torpedo, which was previously staked, requires the use of a large displacement ship. Our product has a caliber of 324 mm and a length of only 3m. Accordingly, the ammunition on board the ship can be significantly larger.

Historically, we have long been in the role of catch-up. And for small-caliber torpedoes, we were down to a certain stage to foreign developers. But now a sample has been created, which not only caught up with the best foreign analogues, but even surpasses them in some characteristics.

Today, competition has shifted to another plane. Previously, we tried to achieve the same characteristics as the best foreign products. Now that we have succeeded, the competition goes to the region

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3622092.html

GarryB wrote:Modern land based mine fields are very sophisticated things and can be turned on or off depending upon the situation... you could turn it on to allow friendly forces to retreat over it and perhaps even a weak enemy force to move over it and then turn it on... attack the weak enemy force and their main escape route is over a newly activated minefield...

At sea it is a little more complicated but also more interesting... you can include sensors with mines and mine torpedos that give data regarding enemy forces and locations...

Call me a skeptic, but i wouldnt want to walk over any type of mines with fuses on. Disabled or not by some other means. Things tend to malfunction and i just might win the lottery.

Historically, we have long been in the role of catch-up. And for small-caliber torpedoes, we were down to a certain stage to foreign developers. But now a sample has been created, which not only caught up with the best foreign analogues, but even surpasses them in some characteristics

I'm sure some here will refute his claims hahaha.

I completely agree with your sentiment and your logic, but in war time military units simply will be ordered to go from where they are to a new location... I doubt they will be told they are walking over a deactivated minefield.

I'm sure some here will refute his claims hahaha.

The Soviets tended to want to sink carriers so large torpedoes were the focus, so it would not surprise me to read in the areas of small torpedoes the west had a lead... but they are generally short range and anti sub weapons anyway... if you want to lead in an area of torpedo performance it would be 650mm heavy weight wake homing torpedos... not small calibre weapons.

Of course now they have improved in that area it means improvements in the number a ship could carry and also improvements in the performance of rocket delivered torpedoes too... as well as aircraft and helo and UAV delivered weapons too.

Russia launches serial production of anti-submarine warfare missile

The new system can also be used by other modern aircraft and helicopters of the Russian Navy

MOSCOW, May 13. /TASS/ The Research and Production Enterprise ‘Region’ (part of Tactical Missiles Corporation) has launched a new APR-3M air-launched anti-submarine warfare missile into serial production, Enterprise CEO Igor Krylov told TASS on Monday.

"All the trials of the APR-3M missile have been completed, the process of its serial production has been organized and its deliveries to the Russian Defense Ministry are underway. In the near future, we will also start promoting this missile for exports. The APR-3M is integrated into the armament of a Ka-27M modernized anti-submarine warfare helicopter," the chief executive said.

The new system can also be employed by other modern aircraft and helicopters of the Russian Navy’s naval aviation, he added.

"Considering that this missile is a hi-tech digital weapon, it can also be used from [other] modern aircraft," Krylov said.

The APR-3M anti-submarine warfare missile is a follow-up of the APR-1, APR-2 and APR-3 missiles that were in service with the Soviet and Russian Navies. These munitions are among the world’s most effective anti-submarine warfare weapons.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/1057909

Both Project 22350 new frigates and Project 20380 corvettes under construction and Project 11442 cruisers undergoing upgrade will be furnished with the Paket-NK system

More:
http://tass.com/defense/1057894

Russia launches serial production of anti-submarine warfare missile

The new system can also be used by other modern aircraft and helicopters of the Russian Navy

MOSCOW, May 13. /TASS/ The Research and Production Enterprise ‘Region’ (part of Tactical Missiles Corporation) has launched a new APR-3M air-launched anti-submarine warfare missile into serial production, Enterprise CEO Igor Krylov told TASS on Monday.

"All the trials of the APR-3M missile have been completed, the process of its serial production has been organized and its deliveries to the Russian Defense Ministry are underway. In the near future, we will also start promoting this missile for exports. The APR-3M is integrated into the armament of a Ka-27M modernized anti-submarine warfare helicopter," the chief executive said.

The new system can also be employed by other modern aircraft and helicopters of the Russian Navy’s naval aviation, he added.

"Considering that this missile is a hi-tech digital weapon, it can also be used from [other] modern aircraft," Krylov said.

The APR-3M anti-submarine warfare missile is a follow-up of the APR-1, APR-2 and APR-3 missiles that were in service with the Soviet and Russian Navies. These munitions are among the world’s most effective anti-submarine warfare weapons.

On the surface a great story, a positive story of a new weapon system passing testing and entering service.

I have a book called Russias Arms 2001-2002, which is basically advertising directly from Russian weapons manufacturers... and it mentions the APR-3ME as the upgrade for the APR-3E back then, so these weapons are not exactly new... I rather suspect they have finally gotten proper funding to complete development and testing and are now going in to service... which is sad... but not totally surprising.... anti sub warfare is very highly technical and expensive and because it is so expensive it is often rather low down on the spending list... a bit like mine warfare ships... it is countries with real war experience against a powerful enemy that spend money on that sort of thing... most other military forces see it as a way to save money by not spending any.

Of course the next article says they are fitting anti torpedo torpedos to their ships, which no one else does.

Would also add that there was not much hugely wrong with the APR-3E missiles, the APR-3ME just does a better job against a wider range of targets.

As far as I can tell the APR-3ME is fully digital so it might have taken this long to domestically develop all the electronic components for production, it also has a more efficient pumpjet that can work for a longer period.
It is 50kgs lighter than previous models, 475kgs vs 525kgs of older models, and it is shorter as well at 3.2 metres compared with the 3.6+ metres of older models.

It is used from aircraft but can also be loaded into ballistic rockets for high speed delivery to areas where subs are detected.

The family are all 350mm calibre weapons.

The Russian Navy is developing a new anti-submarine missile system that can be fired from a universal transporter-launcher container (TPK). The missile carries a torpedo, which separates once the missile comes close to the enemy sub (sounds like it's fired by a VLS). Targeting can be provided by an ASW aircraft or helicopter

According to the Izvestia article, the new system is faster, more accurate and has longer range compared to similar previous systems



https://iz.ru/904667/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/udar-nebes-flot-poluchit-upravliaemye-rakety-dlia-borby-s-submarinami

Based on the performance specs I would say not a new missile, just a new launcher...

50km is not enough. Ka27 can detect submarines 400km away and if its small torpedoes fail destroying it, they will lose the track of the sub.

The Ka-27 would carry its own anti sub weapons, so if it detected an enemy sub at whatever distance it would attack it itself or track the sub while another helo came with the weapons to destroy the target.

This system is to defend ships from subs and torpedo attack if detected early enough.

Note that the US system of ASROC was supposed to be replaced with a system called Sea Lance, which had better range, but it was cancelled because the quality of Soviet subs meant they couldn't reliably detect and track targets at distances requiring the extra range, so it was not adopted... which is strange because that doesn't normally stop them...

But what about the anti-sub Kalibr?

This is a new replacement for that... perhaps a new more advanced torpedo payload, but similar ballistic flightpath.

The universal launcher (TPK) they are talking about is probably UKSK-M.

Note the ship launched 91RE1 has a range of 40km so this one extends its range by 10km and triangular fins like the missile model in your photo.

The sub launched 91RE2 has a range of 50km already and has grid fins like this new design seems to have.

http://mil.today/2019/Science39/

Russian Sonar Manzhetka Found Subsea Robot in Vladivostok

The national competition in marine robotics named AquaRoboTech-2019 took place in September in Vladivostok. During the contest, the fast-deployable area sonar Manzhetka, capable to detect divers, in natural sea conditions identified and traced detailed path of the subsea robot produced by NPO Aurora.

The matter of detection of standalone unmanned submersibles, especially small-sized ones, is critical today, Roman Titkov, director of Dalpribor, the company designing and producing the sonar, told Mil.Press Today. That is why the experience achieved in the competition will be useful for the company’s further projects.

"In the natural marine conditions, in the storm and under heavy acoustic jamming, our area sonar found a small-size sea drone, 200 mm in diameter and 1,000 mm long. Based on the data obtained by Manzhetka, our team modeled the path of the submersible, checked it with the path of NPO Aurora that produced the robot, and the data matched", the company’s director explained the field experiment.

On the Western classification, Manzhetka is the portable diver detection sonar. It is used for military or civil purposes to protect water areas. For example, to monitor environment around critical coastal facilities of energy companies.

Maybe minor, but every bit of import-substitution helps.
No reason why we should continue to subsidize the European naval ship seat industry



http://mil.today/2019/Navy58/

Russian Navy’s Crews Change Seats for National Ones

Neptune Central Design Bureau has developed a family of seats for the Russian Navy’s ships. Designers say the seats are made of domestic materials and will be a substitute for European analogs. The novelties will be presented for the visitors of the upcoming Ninth International Maritime Defense Show to take place in Saint Petersburg.

Konstantin Kuksin, the bureau’s deputy director, commented on the project to Mil.Press Today: "Currently, all Russian naval ships are equipped with foreign-made seats. Example, Grammer or Cleemann. We’ll give the Navy a national alternative meeting all the requirements", he explained.

The seats are being tested now. Designers expect that the first set of seats will be assigned Class O1 this autumn. The set will be mounded in a submarine, which name is not disclosed yet.

Other sets, according to the designers, are to get Class O1 early in 2020.

Earlier on, Mil.Press Today reported that a Russian company named Kompan Marine Seats (KMS) had offered its shock-absorbing seats for assault boats BK-10 and BK-16.

An informed insider said the boats equipped with KMS seats took part in the Syrian campaign and showed good results.