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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    Rpg type 7v

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:26 pm

    problem is that those missiles are subsonic they would need frequaent updates on target location ,and the targets could get away out of reach because they have plenty of time.
    Fast supersonic missiles with big range and large payload should be the main weapons of cruisers.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:03 am

    Fast supersonic missiles with big range and large payload should be the main weapons of cruisers.
    In practise I would expect the vast majority of supersonic and hypersonic anti ship missiles will be on cruisers, but if you think of naval warfare as a game of chess being able to send out a small high speed corvette to launch 8 Onyx missiles at a target 500km away and then return to the battlegroup where the cruiser can use its powerful radar and long range SAMs to cover the corvette on its way out and back makes a lot of sense rather than sending out a destroyer or a cruiser for the same mission.

    With standard armament Soviet Navy you couldn't. With future Russian Navy it becomes an option. Whether you actually use that option or not depends on the circumstances of course.

    But think of tactical battle management... the threat rings around a corvette would generally be 20-25km for its pokey little SAM that might protect it from enemy helicopters but not fixed wing aircraft attacking with anti ship missiles. Many western equivalent boats will just have MANPADS and therefore would be vulnerable to attack by attack helos.

    With the future Russian Navy even small corvettes will have 400km range SAM circles and 2,500km range land attack circles....

    In all probability they wont ever carry such weapons but the west does not know that for sure... surprise is a key part of warfare.

    problem is that those missiles are subsonic they would need frequaent updates on target location ,and the targets could get away out of reach because they have plenty of time.
    Even the high speed Soviet missiles from the 1970s could receive target updates via satellite link... a target 2,000km away may have no idea an attack has started and based on where they are can be safely assumed to continue in roughly the same direction so the missile you launch can be flying towards an area dozens of kms in front of the present location of the target. After the two hours or so an 850km/h missile would take to cover 2,000km a ship moving at 16 knts will have covered about 75km in 2 hours 30 minutes, while a vessel moving at 35 Knts will have covered a maximum of about 165km... the point being that after an hour you can check the position of the target again... it will be within 100km of where it was before and the target intercept area can be refined and transmitted to the missile with very little threat the target could intercept and decipher the signal.

    The launching of long range cruise and anti ship missiles is, I agree likely to be not carried out by Corvettes... most likely subs and cruisers or aircraft from the upgraded K or new carriers.


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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:11 pm

    scary sh!t, sounds like Russky Navy is preparing for alien invasion Razz.
    Kidding aside, if i was commander no i wont send a corvette alone to salvo and run back, too risky, F-35s with antiship missiles would swarm such relatively small ships.
    OTOH, I wonder why russky navy didnt consider converting SSBNs to SSGNs. The Ohio class sub with its hundreds of tomahawks would decimate russky ships, just pop out within range salvo as much as possible and watch as even mighty kirovs become overwhelmed. ironically, the best defended against such an attack would be usnavy, since its carriers have the birds that can sniff out and destroy incoming cruise missiles with lots of distance to spare.
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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:34 pm

    US navy doesn't operate Tomahawk in the anti-ship role, for a good reason.

    Easy to shoot down.

    They actually did convert some old ballistic missile boats to use Granat, so the idea was not even born in the US navy.

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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:16 pm

    Read an interesting tidbit on Balancers....Uragan is known as having an good record of shooting down AShMs during live training exercises...only Kinzhal out did it regularly.

    Makes me feel better about the prospect of the Shtil being the only missile system the 11356s have for self defense.

    xeno

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  xeno on Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:43 am

    TR1 wrote:Read an interesting tidbit on Balancers....Uragan is known as having an good record of shooting down AShMs during live training exercises...only Kinzhal out did it regularly.

    Makes me feel better about the prospect of the Shtil being the only missile system the 11356s have for self defense.
    Interesting... Do you still have link to that discussion?
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    TR1

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    Uragan is known as having an good record of shooting down AShMs

    Post  TR1 on Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:55 am

    xeno wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Read an interesting tidbit on Balancers....Uragan is known as having an good record of shooting down AShMs during live training exercises...only Kinzhal out did it regularly.

    Makes me feel better about the prospect of the Shtil being the only missile system the 11356s have for self defense.
    Interesting... Do you still have link to that discussion?
    Yep here it is:

    http://forums.airbase.ru/2013/12/t87190,45--razvitie-morskogo-oruzhiya-3.1075.html

    Towards middle and bottom of the thread.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:27 am

    Will this be the new Standard CIWS for Russian Navy replacing Kashtan ?

    Plama

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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:06 am

    There's no standard CIWS as we are seeing brand new ships enter service armed with anything from Ak-630, Duet, or Palma....and we could very well see navalized Pantsir in service this decade.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:20 am

    Thanks , That would be stupidity if they dont standardise on a single class of CIWS.

    Just keep AK-630M/Duet for low end ships and Plama for high end.
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    GarryB

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    Naval systems

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:27 am

    Palma is the low cost low impact CIWS for light vessels and for export.

    There is no deck penetration... Kashtan on the other hand has below deck missile handling equipment and 24 reserve missiles which together with the 8 on the mount meant 32 missiles per turret available, plus two 30mm gatling guns.

    The Palma is cheaper because it doesn't have CM or MMW radar, and it has only 8 missiles ready to fire.

    Those missiles are laser beam riding Sosna missiles.

    The replacement for Kashtan-M is a Pantsir-S1 based system with 20km engagement range and a an engagement envelope from 2m above the wave tops to 15km altitude, with 8 missiles on the gun mount with a further 24 missiles below decks for a total of 32 missiles.

    It will be used on larger vessels with plenty of room.

    less room, or less money or both = Palma or Duet or combinations of the two.

    Thanks , That would be stupidity if they dont standardise on a single class of CIWS.

    They are different enough to be useful. The Palma is a cheaper simpler option for export or for vessels that are not designed for serious combat.

    For Pantsir equipped vessels they should be able to defend themselves from a range of threats.

    Part of the Kirov upgrades and Slava upgrades will likely include Pantsir because of their performance.

    For smaller vessels where stealth is a concern then Duet and Palma offer cheaper more radar silent options.

    The ultimate solution would be Duet and Morfei in vertical launch bins... as it would be stealthy and relatively very capable.


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    George1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:12 pm

    Russia Develops Robots for Maritime Defense

    MOSCOW, August 4 (RIA Novosti) - Russian scientists have developed and presented to the Defense Ministry a maritime defense system comprising surface, underwater and flying robots, a defense industry official told RIA Novosti on Monday.

    “The global [maritime defense] command-and-control system, which we are developing, is ready for a large-scale testing phase,” General Director and Chief Designer of the Morinformsystem-Agat corporation, Georgy Antsev, said during the Innovation Day exhibition organized by the Defense Ministry.

    "A patrol ship or a submarine are not always capable of monitoring large regions, while an integrated information control robotic system may solve tasks related to the defense of whole regions, as well as providing navigation in difficult conditions," Antsev said.

    According to the official, the system includes remotely-controlled patrol boats, unmanned aerial vehicles, various types of floating beacons and sensors, as well as other means of monitoring, communications and data-management.

    Antsev said his company could create robotic systems providing maritime defenses of any scope - from protection of ports to the defense of entire stretches of border. The robots could be equipped with traditional internal combustion engines or with engines powered by solar or water energy, he added.

    Morinformsystem-Agat Concern is an umbrella organization in the Russian shipbuilding industry specializing in the domains of informational systems and technologies, system engineering in the sphere of marine data computing equipment, electromagnetic compatibility of radio-electronic facilities, degaussing systems, fire control systems of sea-based cruise and ballistic missiles, combat information and control systems and integrated management systems for surface ships and submarines, according to the company’s official website.

    MotherlandCalls

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  MotherlandCalls on Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:16 am

    George1 wrote:Russia Develops Robots for Maritime Defense

    "A patrol ship or a submarine are not always capable of monitoring large regions, while an integrated information control robotic system may solve tasks related to the defense of whole regions, as well as providing navigation in difficult conditions," Antsev said.

    According to the official, the system includes remotely-controlled patrol boats, unmanned aerial vehicles, various types of floating beacons and sensors, as well as other means of monitoring, communications and data-management.

    I don't see how a remotely controlled patrol boat would be any better than a patrol ship with men on board. The UAVs and other beacons and sensors make a lot more sense and it will be interesting to see the results of those tests.  russia 
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    Mike E

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mike E on Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:47 am

    MotherlandCalls wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia Develops Robots for Maritime Defense

    "A patrol ship or a submarine are not always capable of monitoring large regions, while an integrated information control robotic system may solve tasks related to the defense of whole regions, as well as providing navigation in difficult conditions," Antsev said.

    According to the official, the system includes remotely-controlled patrol boats, unmanned aerial vehicles, various types of floating beacons and sensors, as well as other means of monitoring, communications and data-management.

    I don't see how a remotely controlled patrol boat would be any better than a patrol ship with men on board. The UAVs and other beacons and sensors make a lot more sense and it will be interesting to see the results of those tests.  russia 

    It means that the men that would have been on the ship can be placed elsewhere. Patrol boats don't really need to have a crew.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:25 pm

    Naval Variant of Pantsir called Pantsir-M developed

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/52284/

    Completed service testing of a marine ZRPK "Armour" delivery set to begin in the Navy in 2016. This was at the "Oboronekspo 2014" the CEO of the holding company " Precision complexes " Alexander Denisov .




    "Armour-M" is a naval variant ZRPK "Armour-S" and to replace the complex " Dirk . " Contract for the supply of a marine ZRPK "Armour" was signed with the Ministry of Defense.
    Previously Managing Director of Instrument Design Bureau, part of the holding "Precision complexes", Dmitry Kanaplyou reported That under the sea "Armour" will modernize a number of destroyers and other large ships. Such works are already underway.


    There is a version that the two versions of the ship's combat module anti-aircraft missile and gun systems "Armour-M" will be included in the arms of the Russian destroyer perspective of the "Leader", the creation of which is under development work. Study of image multi-purpose ship oceanic zone is present in the state defense order for 2014. According to the portal "modern army", armament of destroyers of the "Leader" will be comparable with a complete set of American destroyer Arleigh Burke.


    Anti-aircraft missile and gun system "Armour" - the card Tula KBP. The system is designed to destroy cruise missiles, unmanned aerial vehicles, aircraft and ground targets within a radius of 20 km and at an altitude of 15 km.


    "Instrument Design Bureau" - one of the leading design organizations Russian defense complex. Since 2008, the PCU is a member Rosteha, being one of the major holding companies "High-complexes." PCU forces developed and mastered serial production of more than 150 models of weapons and military equipment. Currently, the company is a powerful research and production center, a system of modern precision weapons. Technical solutions embodied in the KBP developments, contain more than 6000 inventions.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:34 am

    Great! I can't wait to see it equipped on some new ships, it will easily be the best CIWS in the world!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:41 pm

    Not totally clear but it seems from the article that there will be two versions... one for upgrading existing ships and one for new designs.

    I would expect the model for new designs is a more stealthy design perhaps?


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    Mike E

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:59 am

    GarryB wrote:Not totally clear but it seems from the article that there will be two versions... one for upgrading existing ships and one for new designs.

    I would expect the model for new designs is a more stealthy design perhaps?
    Perhaps, as it is with the AK-630.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:35 pm

    As far as I know the "stealthy" AK-630 is Duet...



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    Naval Pantsyr

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:02 pm

    Palma testing:

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:00 am

    I think the following shows the AK-76MA.

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    RTN

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  RTN on Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:With a scramjet engine things are made much easier because the air coming in does not need to be slowed down to subsonic speeds and then accelerated through the engine back up to high supersonic speeds to generate thrust.

    SSK equipped with VLS will make it unstable & it will be a nightmare to control the SSK’s neutral buoyancy levels. This is because ASCMs like BrahMos-1 are best launched from either VLS or inclined launchers encased within much heavier SSGNs. It was for this reason that Russia way back in 2001 wound-up its efforts to market the VLS-equipped Amur 1650.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:22 am

    SSK equipped with VLS will make it unstable & it will be a nightmare to control the SSK’s neutral buoyancy levels.

    No disrespect meant, but that sounds silly... most subs are full of a range of ballast tanks that allow shifting of the cg to all over the place on the sub.

    Modern cruise missiles are not that different in weight to torpedos, but more importantly on old Soviet and Russian subs the torpedo room is right at the nose of the vessel so launching 4 torpedoes could take up to 10 tons off the weight of the front of the vessel.

    Vertical launch tubes are added to SSKs and can be placed at the CG so weight loss through launching would have zero effect on stability.

    To be honest the launch tubes themselves could be used to balance the boat as when the missiles are launched the doors can be shut and any level of water could be pumped in... as needed from full to none depending on the requirement at the time.

    To be brutally honest the weight of the missile will actually be close to the missiles volume in water as fuel and even HE payloads, as well as electronic sections are not generally denser than water, so the water that fills the tube after the missile has been launched will balance out the loss of weight of the missile...


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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    T-5 Torpedo

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:16 pm

    T-5 nuclear/thermonuclear tipped torpedo

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    Werewolf

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:18 pm

    No supercavitation?

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